The Eternal Bath Tub

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	25 Jul 2003
Now firemaiden with her wonderfully curious mind has started me thinking about all the RWS cards and has given this deck a totally new life. After Umbrae's Justice thread this morning, I took out the Judgment Card and saw it in a totally new light. Is this the opportunity for all of us to ask the questions we always wanted to ask but didn't because we were afraid to look stupid? Let's ignore the spelling mistake in Judgment (does this have a metaphysical meaning?) and go on the card itself. When I was kid growing up in the bush we didn't have electricity or water and had to share baths. This image reminds me of our mother coming to the bathroom and telling us to get out pronto! Even Michael the Archangel with his curly hair looks like my Mum :) But seriously looking at the image: Are these naked figures actually in what I think they are ...open COFFINS??? And what does the water symbolize - the River Styx? Isn't that the River that borders hell? Does this picture mean that we are all in hot water, metaphorically, and Archangel Michael is wearing the Red Cross to administer spiritual First Aid? What does that Cross really mean? It seems completely out of context with the rest of the image? Is it the Flag of God's cheer squad? The Cross would make sense that way.

catti	25 Jul 2003
i always thought that at the "end of the world" in christian mythology there were going to be earthquakes flood and general disaster. So i assumed that it was another Great Flood and yes the good souls are rising out of their coffins. ps these threads are great! as an individual you can analyze the cards one by one for years and never get the good stuff that comes in a day here on aeclectic

Moongold	25 Jul 2003
This post may seem a little irreverent or frivolous. However, when I first looked at the Judgment card when new to Tarot it those questions did occur, and I have always thought it to be one of the less attractive RWS images. I also wondered what a child's reaction to the RWS (or any) Tarot deck would be. I was once a children's librarian and have spent many hours with kids looking at illustrations and hearing their delightfully fresh and often highly intuitive interpretations of pictures. My apologies if I've offended people. No malice or disrespect intended. :)

allibee	25 Jul 2003
Dont start me on Greek mythology again, LOL .... Quote: And what does the water symbolize - the River Styx? Isn't that the River that borders hell? Hell would be Tartarus, real lower dimension stuff, but within the Underworld - Erebus, the upper dimension - was of course firstly the plains of Ashphodel, where most of the souls went before being judged and then also the Elysian fields where the good and righteous were allowed to live out their 'deaths' in beauty and tranquility ... and the really good ones were allowed back 'up' again ... Rebirth, no less. :O) Lots and lots of info on the net for the curious.....

firemaiden	25 Jul 2003
Well, I for one feel born anew after a nice bath...

Diana	26 Jul 2003
The cross represents, I think, the structure of the universe. It is all in order.... horizontally and vertically. The bath-tub? A very old alchemical image, as far as I can make out. The philosopher lies in a coffin in order to die and be reborn and to accomplish his last alchemical Great Work. I like what Mr. Waite himself says about this card in his Pictorial Key: "I have said that this symbol is essentially invariable in all Tarot sets, or at least the variations do not alter its character. The great angel is here encompassed by clouds, but he blows his bannered trumpet, and the cross as usual is displayed on the banner. The dead are rising from their tombs--a woman on the right, a man on the left hand, and between them their child, whose back is turned. But in this card there are more than three who are restored, and it has been thought worth while to make this variation as illustrating the insufficiency of current explanations. It should be noted that all the figures are as one in the wonder, adoration and ecstacy expressed by their attitudes. It is the card which registers the accomplishment of the great work of transformation in answer to the summons of the Supernal--which summons is heard and answered from within. Herein is the intimation of a significance which cannot well be carried further in the present place. What is that within us which does sound a trumpet and all that is lower in our nature rises in response--almost in a moment, almost in the twinkling of an eye? Let the card continue to depict, for those who can see no further, the Last judgment and the resurrection in the natural body; but let those who have inward eyes look and discover therewith. They will understand that it has been called truly in the past a card of eternal life, and for this reason it may be compared with that which passes under the name of Temperance."

Myrrha	26 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold What does that Cross really mean? It seems completely out of context with the rest of the image? Is it the Flag of God's cheer squad? The Cross would make sense that way. Equal-armed crosses make me think of an intersection between the mundane world (the horizontal arm) and the spiritual world (the vertical arm). At the moment symbolized by the Judgment card they come together (center point of cross) and the spiritual life and energy infuses the everyday world, perhaps showing that they were never that separate anyway. This idea of a cross as showing the intersection between the worlds is found in many cultures and religions, including the voudon religion where the idea is built into the structure of the temple. I remember something similar in a story I read from a shamanic native American culture although I can't remember which one. Does Rachel Pollack talk about this in 78 degrees of wisdom? It has been so long since I read it. Myrrha

firemaiden	26 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Let's ignore the spelling mistake in Judgment (does this have a metaphysical meaning?) spelling mistake?? This is how I would spell it! My dictionary lists judgEment as an alternative correct spelling. How on earth is one to pronounce the word without an E???? (Maybe the English took out the E as a snub to the French, she offered hopefully) (If so, it is my duty to put it back in)

HudsonGray	26 Jul 2003
My Websters New World Dictionary 1973 has it without an e in the middle, and my spell check always comes up red (wrong) when I put an e in. Since it's spelled without now, for the most part here in the USA, I'm not putting the e in on my 'deck in progress'. On the other hand, I'm still undecided if I like the spelling grey or gray-- and several other word choice spellings I've run across on other words.

firemaiden	26 Jul 2003
spell checkers are notoriously narrow-minded!

Moongold	26 Jul 2003
Yea..........I looked up my Oxford dictionary which gives both spellings. There are no absolutes anymore, only in American spell checkers. I should have known that Pixie Colman Smith would not have made a mistake like this. Mea culpa. See.....nothing will stop the day of Judgement catching up on this renegade Catholic. Unconsciously I think that may be why I sought out this card..... sort of thumbing my nose at the whole idea. Now if I was a tragic conscientious objector, Michael might let me get away with all this heresy on the Big Day, but I'm still just a kid in the bath tub, splashing water impotently at the Hound of Heaven. Just going off to check the Church travel pamphlets for the latest missionary outpost so that I can make amends.........Hmmmmmm I see it's ..... Australia?

Belladonna	27 Jul 2003
Moongold, the river Styx does not border "hell" which is a christian concept implying the existence of a "heaven", but was crossed over to reach the underworld, or "other" world, where spirits went after death. The land of Hades was a land of rest and rejuvenation and transformation from which Persephone emerged from every spring reinspiring her mother, Demeter, to be fruitful upon the earth once again. I feel that the presence of the river Styx as well as the emergence of the dead from their coffins indicates a need to go within, to search the darkness of our minds and hearts, to bring into the light what has long been forgotten and examined, in preparation of beginning again.

Ruby Red Slippers	27 Jul 2003
I always look at this card as a “wake-up call” to incorporate “all” of ourselves…the man, woman, child. The integration of our “complete” selves. We are “all” of this at one time, without the “labels” of the 3D world. The water is the water that now flows from the mountaintops seen in the fool’s card to integrate all that we are. Also the water reflects the “underworld” (our unconscious self) wherein lies our “whole nature”. The equal armed cross is Greek, Christian and also an emblem of Hecate, goddess of the crossroads. The equal armed cross also “crosses” at the heart level signifying “love” the universal answer to all, within ourselves and outwardly to the environment. The horn reps a spiritual call to reconcile “opposites of a “divided” self to one of “unity”. The angel could also be considered Gabriel, the angel of completion and water. Even though the red wings appear to represent Michael, (as seen in red wings of the Lovers and the Wheel of Fortune), they could also convey the universal angelic passionate energy and message. This card means to me to drop our “illusionary opinionated mind” and look within to our deeper depths, for our own truth. Ala Robin Wood’s card, which reflects a phoenix arising from the ashes of the caldron. We are all mystical creatures. We are mystical, “star stuff” Living in the density of our self created personas, because we usually get a paycheck for doing to….. It is the next to the last car of the major arcana, The World, which is true integration of all. As far as this card being related to organized religion……I am of the mind that all organized religion used the “universal” symbols, because they have power within us. They just manipulated them to their own definition as a means of “control” After all, if each of us is made to God’s image, we are all “God stuff” and don’t need to be “told” what is…we know in our hearts. The universal spiritual commandments……Love God & love your neighbor as yourself…the rest is just rhetoric. Whoa…didn’t mean to get so heavy here…… Mea Culpa Ruby Red Slippers

The The Eternal Bath Tub thread was originally posted on 25 Jul 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.