high priestess - moon

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

isthmus nekoi	12 Aug 2003
Sometimes I read interpretations of the moon that seem to me to conflate with the symbolism of the high priestess. I guess it is all very personal, but I seem them as reigning over distinct areas that may overlap: HP.........................................Moon intuition.................................instinct anima....................................Self (unconscious) silence....................................howling secrecy...................................nothingness (negative space) finite.......................................infinite inertia, passivity.....................phases virgin.......................................maiden, mother, crone astrological moon....................pisces wisdom....................................genius/madness introversion, contemplation.....imagination, art guidance..................................initiation peace, serenity........................ecstacy/terror mystery....................................unknown dreams, visions........................dreams, visions ;) Feel free to add to the list, or contest the one I have made up.

Thirteen	12 Aug 2003
I think this is an amazing list! What a GREAT compare/contrast. Very useful. I'll certainly be printing it out. I especially like the "intutition vs instinct" aspect--very true. The HPS follows a trait that relies on consciousness, where as "instinct" is much more animal--the reptile brain. Also like the "silence/howling" comparison. I think the only thing I might question is the "Virgin" vs. "maiden, mother, crone." I also used to think of the HPS as only "virgin" but I'd read a lot that puts her as also "maiden, mother, crone." Relating her to Diana/Selene (maiden), Isis (mother) and Hecate (crone). To add.... Both are related to water, and moving water at that. Perhaps a quiet brook or spring vs. white-water rapids? ;)

catti	12 Aug 2003
i cant believe i am going to quibble with you becuase i DO respect your opinions on Tarot, and you write so better than i do but : i see the HP as a deep mountain lake ie: lake Titicaca in Bolivia or lake Baykal in Russia (Georgia?) and the Moon has to be the ocean and the tides.

MystiqueMoonlight	12 Aug 2003
I see the parallel of the High Priestess to the Moon as all incombencing of the Moon's qualities whilst the Moon goes throw the various phases at different stages (ie: waxing, new, full, waning, dark) :smoker:

isthmus nekoi	12 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I think the only thing I might question is the "Virgin" vs. "maiden, mother, crone." I also used to think of the HPS as only "virgin" but I'd read a lot that puts her as also "maiden, mother, crone." Relating her to Diana/Selene (maiden), Isis (mother) and Hecate (crone). Oh right! Good point, I think that's also indicated by the )O( crown HP wears - as MystiqueMoonlight says, all moon phases at once. Glad you found the list useful too ^_^ Moving water is another good connection! This reminds me of something I read about the dress in the HP of Rider-Waite turning into a river... Perhaps life-sustaining water as HP versus life-creating *salt* water as Moon. This relates Moon to the great Mother archetype; her waters are amniotic... Or wait, before I get carried away w/this, did life start in salt water??? Another binary I'm mulling over is HP/spirituality compared to Moon/psychic. The former has a more formalized human dimension.

Thirteen	13 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Perhaps life-sustaining water as HP versus life-creating *salt* water as Moon. Ah! Nice idea! Catti, what do you think? And please, feel free to quibble whenever you like--quibbles keep my brain alive :) Yes, I think the Moon really does have to relate to the ocean, given Pisces (Pisces is never fresh water fish, is it?) and the crayfish (lobster?) rising out of those primeval waters. And yes, in the RW deck the High Priestess's robe does turn into a running stream of water that, as I understand, trickles through several other cards. This is why I thought she might be more like a spring--water welling up from the Earth--or an oasis (re: Isis? Maybe the Nile?). Which, interestingly, might connect her as well with the Star? Quote: This relates Moon to the great Mother archetype; her waters are amniotic... Or wait, before I get carried away w/this, did life start in salt water? LOL. Yes, life started in salt water. I think the difference would be the idea of the Moon creating very low, basic life, like our lobster (crayfish)--or just fish. The Mother as "womb" rather than the "Isis" Mother suckling and caring for her child as well. If that makes any sense.

Moongold	13 Aug 2003
Isthmus, Would these be appropriate. I must say that I would prefer to see the HP and Moon as closer than seems to be implied here. Moon is High Priestess' 'Shadow" sometimes? Anyway, here they are: Ritual: spontaneous Insight: illusion Lucid: shadowed Intangible: Perceptible

isthmus nekoi	13 Aug 2003
Oh I must've thought up the water/salt water idea from Catti's post (lake/ocean) :) And I'm not sure about this, but I would think Pisces relates to the ocean b/c its ruler is Neptune. (This is its modern ruler though, before Neptune was discovered, it was his bro, Jupiter.) Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen And yes, in the RW deck the High Priestess's robe does turn into a running stream of water that, as I understand, trickles through several other cards. This is why I thought she might be more like a spring--water welling up from the Earth--or an oasis (re: Isis? Maybe the Nile?). Which, interestingly, might connect her as well with the Star? Such a beautiful image! I was also thinking about HP having motherly qualities, in a more human way than the moon, but then I was thinking how to differentiate b/w HP and Empress in that aspect! As for the Star, that's an interesting connection, in the Rider Waite version, you could interpret her as pouring both types of water: the stream and the sea? Sea also connotates "mother" via the Christian figure of Mary (same root for words like 'marine') and the French word 'mer' (mere). Note they both sound close to 'mama'. -- Moongold, I was hoping someone would add their own associations! Yeah, I can totally see the change from ritual to spontenaity. I'm a bit surprized at intangible/perceptible as I would imagine the HP to be the more perceptible one. But I agree, they are deeply related. Here's something from the Tao Te Ching that might illustrate their relationship. The way can be spoken of, But it will not be the constant way; The name can be named, But it will not be the constant name. The nameless was the beginning of the myriad creatures; The named was the mother of the myriad creatures. Hence constantly rid yourself of desires in order to observe its subtlety; But constantly allow yourself to have desires in order to observe what it is after. These two have the same origin but differ in name. They are both called dark (mysterious), Darkness upon darkness The gateway to all that is subtle. Taoist stuff gets very 'moony' I find, even when it's not from old Lao Tzu... Here's another poem, this time from the Rg Veda: Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning; with no distinguishing sign, all this was water. The life force that was covered w/emptiness, that one arose through the power of heat. Desire came upon that one in the beginning; that was the first seed of the mind. (Oh, and here come the Hierophants - i.n.) Poets seeking in their hearts w/wisdom found the bond of existence in non-existence. Man, gotta love these kooky ancient Asian texts ^_^ [editted to fix spelling errors]

Moongold	13 Aug 2003
I love the illustration of the similarities between poetic vision and the Tarot :). We have just been discussing this in another thread. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16428&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 Alissa, where are you? With regard to intangible/perceptible, one can see the Moon in the evening sky, and one can quite clearly her effect on people. One cannot see the High Priestess so clearly unless one is a highly evolved soul! Here is a part of poem by the Australian poet, Judith Wright, about the birth of the Moon in a New Guinea legend, New Guinea is just north of Australia and our country administered it for many years. The Birth of the Moon VIII Darkness frays the edge of self; all boundaries vanish. Past the shelving of the horizons memory's runs diminish. Darkness pours through eyesockets; erasing silence rises higher, mouth high. Alone with imminence, in caves that are no shelter, by waters that cannot move, he draws now into his centre, dreaming light: affirming love. From depths he dares not know, by veins that scarcely flow, light stirs and comes in answer. Fine as threads where dews condense, faint as starlight's faintest silver, light is born within his sense. Light moves from mist to glow. IX This legend is as old as the day the poet was born; the poet who found and loved the stumbling moon that travels weeping along the sun's triumphant road, pursued by shadows, a pale uncertain bride........ We invent both light and dark: that is man's fate. And I the chosen one, the moon's lunatic mate, know well what current in you drove me apart to dig from my depths the image of man's unfinished heart. I've left our quite a bit of the poem but I think there is enough there to show the manifestation of Moon in the consciousness of this tribe, so close to us. Looking at myths and legends like this New Guinea one, which goes back countless years, you get a real sense of the Moon as perceptible. It would be interesting to look at the manifestation of the feminine Mother archetype. I wonder whether we would see the High Priestess or the Empress? I've drifted a bit from the point from the point, Isthmus! Sorry.

Elle	13 Aug 2003
I see the HP as more of a Virgin, a "perfect" being, almost untouchable, as if she would disappear if you tried to touch her (not that she is a ghost). In my imagination, I conjure up a vision of a younger and less nuturing woman than a mother-Empress figure. Warmest, Elle

matfav	13 Aug 2003
The High Priestess is that of a young girl, teenager. The mother would be Empress. The HP is raw feminine emotion yet to be refined. She cannot be mother, nor wise, only intuitive, instinctive, moody, hence the phases of the moon. She represents the unconscious non logical part of self. raw, instinctive, natural yet non worldly.

Thirteen	13 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by matfav She cannot be mother, nor wise, only intuitive, instinctive, moody, hence the phases of the moon. Well, yes and no. Robert Wang describes the HPS as the "essence of consciousness symbolized...as the very source of all water." This definition is amblified by Case as "...no matter how many forms develop from it, the virgin substance is itself unchanged....Here...one may find a clue to the inner significance of the Virgin myths of all religions." Wang goes on to reference Jung who discusses the idea of "virgin's milk"--the "Life giving power of the unconscious." In other words, Virgin she may be, but a good many Virgins magically give birth in mythology--and suckle the infant with their virgin's milk. Isis (the HPS's crown is based on the one worn by Isis), to a certain extent, included. Thing is, yes, she remains a virgin--but that doesn't mean she doesn't (can't) give birth--she is the vessel for the water of life. Furthermore, as Moon, the HPS goes through all phases of the female (maiden, mother or, as Wang points out, sexual Nymph and crone)--but also like the moon, she always returns back again to Maiden at the beginning of the month. In essence she is always restored to virginity. Thus she is able to be BOTH eternal virgin, yet also eternal mother, eternal sexual female and eternal crone. That's the cool thing about myths and tarot cards--you can have such paradoxes. As for wisdom, Wang remarks: "The Wisdom" italics mine, "of the High Priestess is in regulation" italics Wang's, "The moon represents fluctuations, dualities, tides. It is the Moon which controls the tides of the waters of consciousness." She is, he says, "the uniting intelligence."

isthmus nekoi	17 Aug 2003
(Pls excuse the late reply, what w/the power outage..) Quote: Originally posted by Moongold With regard to intangible/perceptible, one can see the Moon in the evening sky, and one can quite clearly her effect on people. One cannot see the High Priestess so clearly unless one is a highly evolved soul! Ah, I see what you mean now! Quote: Looking at myths and legends like this New Guinea one, which goes back countless years, you get a real sense of the Moon as perceptible. It would be interesting to look at the manifestation of the feminine Mother archetype. I wonder whether we would see the High Priestess or the Empress? I wonder what subtle difference can be made b/w the states of mother represented by HP, Empress and Moon.

Thirteen	17 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi I wonder what subtle difference can be made b/w the states of mother represented by HP, Empress and Moon. Well, the Empress isn't related to the Moon at all. The Moon is pure water, the Empress is pure earth. The Empress is the fertile Earth incarnate. She's very much Demeter, all fields of grain, ripe fruit and flowers. All of which grow under the warm sun, not by the light of the moon and are watered, in this mythology, by semen from heaven. The High Priestess is the river or sea as life-giving. The waters of the Nile flood the land and thus things grow. The sea offers up it's bounty with the tides; water is blood, the embrionic fluids--all things born out of it. In regards to the Tarot, the difference seems to be unconscious as compared to conscious feminine power. The Empress, I would say, is very conscious. Conscious sexuality, creativity, energy. She tends her garden very deliberately and with full awareness. Not like the very unconscious, deep, instinctual waters of the High Priestess.

Elle	17 Aug 2003
Lovely,thought-provoking, dream-inducing thread...thank you Warmest, Elle

firemaiden	18 Aug 2003
Fastastic schema of comparisons, Isthmus! And you have gotten us all thinking. I also love the additions of fresh vs. saltwater, life sustaining vs. life begetting, lake vs. ocean. I wonder if we could also see disctinctions along the lines of tame vs. wild depth of human psyche vs. animal instinct or something like that. hmm.

Moongold	18 Aug 2003
My Moon is in Pisces, so forgive me for persevering with this. The Empress partly represents Demeter whose daughter Persephone was abducted by Hades and lived in the underworld until Zeus took pity on Demeter and ordered that Persephone be released. However, Persephone had eaten pomegranates, the forbidden fruit, and therefore could not return completely to the world. Are there not pomegranates on the Empress’s robe and are there not pomegranates on the painting or engraving, whatever it is, behind the High Priestess? If this is so, are they a symbolic connection between the Empress and the High Priestess? I see both images as Mother archetypes but am a bit non-plussed at the pomegranate connection. Maybe the pomegranates symbolize the scared, mysterious hidden side of motherhood, the connection with forbidden sexuality? I don’t know…..just asking. Now, some representations of the Empress have the moon at her feet. I can’t see that in the Rider Waite and but it is so in Oswald Wirth and in some versions of the Marseilles. In Rider Waite, the High Priestess has the Moon at her feet.. So both Empress and High Priestess have dominion over Moon. Moon influences the ebb and flow of the oceans, the primordial waters. Man is made up principally of fluid, so we are subject to her powers also. But it sounds as though Moon is subject to both High Priestess and Empress. It seems that the only power Moon has is in the unconscious, but in material and spiritual senses she is much more than that surely? She is a watcher, a symbol……of what? I can see how the Mother Archetype is represented by both High Priestess and Empress. Perhaps Moon represents that deep scary; instinctive sexual energy that women are supposed to have; High Priestess has the more virginal spiritual sexual energy and Empress actually has the children. Maybe that is what the pomegranates also represent? There is part of me that simply loves the Moon and wants to see her as much more than this.

Thirteen	18 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Are there not pomegranates on the Empress’s robe and are there not pomegranates on the painting or engraving, whatever it is, behind the High Priestess? If this is so, are they a symbolic connection between the Empress and the High Priestess? True, and a slap on the wrist for me for fogetting that ;) Kudos to you for reminding us. We could say that the HPS is Persephone in her underworld aspect. The "painting" of pomegranates which hangs behind her is a veil or curtain; it's emblematic of the unconscious, the "veiled" world, the dark of the moon. After all, that's the other half of the story--Demeter gets Persephone back for only half the year. The other half she remains in the underworld as it's queen. And, yes, I think you're very right that the pomegranates indicate the more mysterious, scary, dark side of the female. On the Empress's end, there's Demeter refusing to let anything grow until she gets her daughter back (which is why Zeus eventually capitulated--NOT out of pity for Demeter, but pity for mankind who were starving to death!). Mom, these pomegranates remind us, can be very protective of her baby. Very scary. The Empress can make the flowers bloom and the fruit grow on the trees--but she can just as easily keep things barren--cold and wintery, dead as the underworld. And yes, I think in both cases the pomegranates also indicate the mysterious side of the female in regards to conceiving (lets remember that it took a while for guys to figure out they had a part in the whole pregnancy thing), giving birth and most certainly sex. The whole Demeter/Persephone story comes about when Hades nabs the girl out of love/lust. The imagry is overflowing with Freudian symbolism: Dark caves, ruby-red fruit, heading into the underworld.....all the scary, sexual mystery that girls hold for guys. Quote: [/b] Now, some representations of the Empress have the moon at her feet. [/b] Really? I've only seen the moon at the feet of the HPS. The Empress is almost always in daylight with daylight symbols.

Moongold	18 Aug 2003
Hi Thirteen, Yes. :) Oswald Thirth and some versions of the Marseilles (see Irene Gad: Tarot and Individuation) have Empress with Moon at her feet.

Major Tom	18 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Oswald Thirth and some versions of the Marseilles (see Irene Gad: Tarot and Individuation) have Empress with Moon at her feet. The BOTA Tarot also shows the Empress with the Moon at her feet. ;) So does Major Tom's Tarot for that matter. :laugh: To quote from The Tarot by Paul Foster Case: "The silver lunar crescent under the Empress' feet indicate the fact that the subconscious activities she symbolizes have their basis in the primary powers of subconsciousness which Tarot pictures in the High Priestess. Actually, there is no fundamental difference between the latter and the Empress; but the High Priestess symbolizes the virgin state of the cosmic subconsciousness, as it is in itself, whereas the Empress typifies the productive, generating activities of the same subconsciousness, after it has been impregnated by seed-ideas at the subconscious level represented by the Magician... She is called the Empress because subconsciousness has control over all sequences of development in the material world." Thirteen - Didn't men and women figure out the causes of pregancy about the same time? :joke: The Demeter allegory holds up as long as you realise these processes can occur at any time - that is they are not regulated by seasons. :) Pomegranates remind us that anyone who bleeds so much and so regularly and yet does not die is indeed both mysterious and scary. :laugh:

isthmus nekoi	18 Aug 2003
firemaiden> the binary drawn b/w human and animal could perhaps be extended to the personal uncon/collective uncon? The human soul and the anima mundi?.... Thoth's deck also features Empress w/the moon :) I would relate HP/Empress to humanity, Moon to the transpersonal (ie. animals, gods etc). They in turn, influence each other, not sure if one can rule over the other in a top down model of power. Also, the power of the uncon is very great - by this I do not mean the *personal* uncon formed by an individual's complexes. I refer to the *collective* uncon which encompasses all and can never be really assimilated into the conscious mind; hence the difference b/w moon and HP (or Empress). As for pomegranates, along w/being symbols of fertility, sexuality etc. I might venture to add they are symbols of knowledge. I think there is also a very strong thematic connection b/w the myth of Persephone, the myth of Eve, the fairy tale Bluebeard and to a lesser extent Snow White, all of which deal w/female sexuality and knowledge - Persephone becomes Queen of the Underworld after eating the fruit. If we are to focus on the descent aspect of Persephone, we may also include Inanna(sp!)/Ishtar and her varients. Focus on Demeter, and you bring in Isis, Mary and those who mourned over their dead son-gods. The story of Persphone is a rich rich myth indeed, and we've only really brushed over its meaning... One last thing: Rider Waite's HP has the pomegranates placed in a structure - the tree of life - whereby sexuality/creativity gains a mystical nature, within the confines of wisdom.

Moongold	18 Aug 2003
[quote]Originally posted by isthmus nekoi As for pomegranates, along w/being symbols of fertility, sexuality etc. I might venture to add they are symbols of knowledge. I think there is also a very strong thematic connection b/w the myth of Persephone, the myth of Eve, the fairy tale Bluebeard and to a lesser extent Snow White, all of which deal w/female sexuality and knowledge - Persephone becomes Queen of the Underworld after eating the fruit. One last thing: Rider Waite's HP has the pomegranates placed in a structure - the tree of life - whereby sexuality/creativity gains a mystical nature, within the confines of wisdom. [[/quote] Knowledge in the biblical sense of the word, referring to sexuality? Pomegranates refer to fertility, passivity and receptivity which in the idiom of the Tree of Life would be understood as female wisdom. It is easy to see that metaphor represent a more contemporary understanding of wisdom, however. Quote: I would relate HP/Empress to humanity, Moon to the transpersonal (ie. animals, gods etc). They in turn, influence each other, not sure if one can rule over the other in a top down model of power. Also, the power of the uncon is very great - by this I do not mean the *personal* uncon formed by an individual's complexes. I refer to the *collective* uncon which encompasses all and can never be really assimilated into the conscious mind; hence the difference b/w moon and HP (or Empress). Yes, this is a much more acceptable concept to me. The language of some of the older interpretations use terms and phrases like dominion and the moon is mine to reflect the image of the Moon being at the feet of both High Priestess and Empress. Gareth Knight in The Serpent of Wisdom which is a meditation on the Tree of Life has Moon saying I am Moon. I am secretly called the Ruler of Flux and Reflux and Child of Sons of the Mighty.......I am the Moon, ever changing in the constant cycle of bith and rebirth......Pisces is mine......

Thirteen	18 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi One last thing: Rider Waite's HP has the pomegranates placed in a structure - the tree of life - whereby sexuality/creativity gains a mystical nature, within the confines of wisdom. Excellent points, especially this last. (Shakes isthmus hand heartily) This is one amazing discussion you've started! You know....as I recall, there is a deck (a type of Marseilles? I say that because there is a Juggler instead of the Magician) where there is no High Priestess or Hierophant. What you have instead Jupiter/Juno. And because this discussion is running long--and we've moved into Empress/HPS (leaving Moon/HPS in the dust), I think I'd better post my thoughts on that subject (Jupiter/Juno instead of Hierophant/HPS) in a new thread. Wouldn't want to risk the mighty and terrible wrath of the moderators ;) Hope to see you all there. I'm really loving this discussion!

isthmus nekoi	18 Aug 2003
Moongold, you're like a library for the moon! :D Knowledge... or maybe gnosis would be a better word for it? Hm, yes, not an easy word to tie to sexuality when given the context of Christianity!... How about the following chain - knowledge=gnosis=snake=Satan=sexuality... almost 6 degrees of separation there :P Perhaps HP/Empress can be seen as being conscious of unconsciousness which is what gives them dominion over the moon? (Consciousness being awareness of existence, of difference, represented by the 'fall of man'.) Whereas moon is unconsciousness, or loss of consciousness. Another differentiation: HP as consciousness of uncon expressed through spirit, Empress as the same thing expressed through matter? Thirteen, glad you are enjoying this thread too ^_^

Elle	18 Aug 2003
Thirteen picks this up on a new thread - Jupiter/Juno... Warmest, Elle

Major Tom	19 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Perhaps HP/Empress can be seen as being conscious of unconsciousness which is what gives them dominion over the moon? (Consciousness being awareness of existence, of difference, represented by the 'fall of man'.) Whereas moon is unconsciousness, or loss of consciousness. I prefer the word subconscious to the word unconscious. Unconscious implies unknowable and that just doesn't feel right to me. Thus I would prefer to say the moon represents the subconscious - which is knowable & indeed controllable - as shown in both the High Priestess and the Empress. After all, isn't one of the uses of the Tarot to awaken the communication between our conscious and subconscious minds? The High Priestess represents subconscious knowledge - those things we know without learning. Call it intuition if you like. The Empress representing the application of that subsconscious knowledge to effect the material world. Did you ever meet someone said to have a 'green thumb'? Thus it works in sequence. By application of our will (represented by the Magician), we apply our knowledge (represented by the High Priestess), to make things happen on Earth (represented by the Empress). The Moon represents the subconscious energy we use to facilitate the process. A good example would be the process used to plan, plant and nurture a garden. So I would say the dominion over the Moon demonstrated by the High Priestess and the Empress are the conscious use of the subconscious mind.

catti	19 Aug 2003
working form my morgan-greer deck: the high priestess is seated irobed in blue, she holds a scroll in her lap and a silver bracelt on her left arm, a silver cross of equal arms is around her neck; her feet are placed upon a crecent moon which is in smaller form on her forehead. behind her is drapery of indigo/purple suspended between the dark pillar and light pillar. the draperies almost obscure the lake behind her. The lake is repeated in the Moon card. the crayfish crawls out of it. I believe it is the other side of the HP lake, just as she has a crescent moon and the moon is the Moon card is full . the Moon card in Mermaid tarot is really effective. There is this utterly creepy crawfish human thing crawling out of the lake, and the watercolour treatment really works making the card seem a hallucination. and drifting some more, in the Empress (morgan greer) she has a crecent moon under her feet and a pomegranate next to it behind her is a river flowing....the star is pouring water into a lake and from her other jug a river is flowing. The Star and the Empress in this deck are look alikes ( as well as strength) i have always seen the Star and Strength as duel cards ; both relating to the Empress. And the High Priestess and Justice as duel cards ; the daughter of the Empress. this is just how i have drawn the story. the High Priestess is concerned with spiritual matters the Justice card is a more material card, the goings on and about us, the HP is the goings on within us as for Strength and the Star , they are day and night . the Justice is a daylight card, HP a night card but the same can be said for Empress and [herdaughter ;-) ] the HP Which is where the star comes in, she is pouring the water into the HP lake.....

isthmus nekoi	19 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom So I would say the dominion over the Moon demonstrated by the High Priestess and the Empress are the conscious use of the subconscious mind. Ah, I like your distinction. By subconscious then, would you mean the personal unconscious?.... Or more than that since subcon includes things that have not been learned...? I like this distinction b/c it is a very blurry line to be drawn b/w the aspects of the non-conscious realm that can be made conscious, and that cannot. If that was the distinction being made? I think perhaps HP/Empress may have dominion over both the subconscious and unconscious. Ultimately, I think moon is unknowable and uncontrollable, although certainly this doesn't mean we cannot gain knowledge, or exert some degree of control over what it represents. ie. I think for all the control and understanding we have over nature -- we may even invent and create w/the same molecules of dna -- we are still subject to play out her design. Pls excuse my fatalism, it's been a fatalistic time for me :P catti, if everyone in the Major Arcana was related like the greek gods.... would the fool be the kid found abadonned on the doorstep of the Atu residence? ^_^

firemaiden	19 Aug 2003
There are so many different levels: I see the "subconscious" as a plane of thought just under the surface - yet still relatively verbal and imagistic. I think of the "unconsious" as entirely non-verbal -- equivalent perhaps to Freud's "id" - the animalian level of intincts and rages. And lower still than that -- is the part that just tells us to breath. So inotherwords, I agree with Isthmus, I would align "subconscious" with the Priestess and "unconscious" with the Moon.

Moongold	20 Aug 2003
Interestingly the Hebrew letter Ooph meaning 'back of the head' is a symbol for Moon, and this word refers to the non-reasoning activities of the brain: sleep and dreams. In reality, the back of the brain is much more primitive in origin and simply regulated physical functions for a few million years probably. So the Moon has watched over the soup of creation and evolution for aeons. However, this is the primaeval womb of life and Moon holds it sacred. It is an essential function Sub-conscious is definitely a much more appropriate term to assign to the care of the HP. Thanks Major Tom!

isthmus nekoi	31 Aug 2003
More to add: Moon I think, can indicate illness, whereas HP healing and Empress good health. Moon as universal love, Empress as unconditional love. Love is a collision point b/w the finite and the infinite. Moon and Empress are at either end of the fallout of such collisions....

dadsnook2000	31 Aug 2003
Astrologically, the Moon represents (among many things) fluctuation, change, NEEDS, urge-to-repsond or react, groups and people (public). These astrological associations of the Moon do not seem to relate well-or-directly to the HP. I have a hard time relating astrological symbolism to the tarot cards except in a partial manner. I tend to see a card such as the HP, even with the blatent Moon symbolism shown in the RWS card, as having selected (only) characteristics of the full astrology symbol. The systems are, afterall, different in application and structure. The HP strikes me as having (among many things) patience, a willingness to teach, a responsibility to guide and share, a duty to protect knowledge, more an intellectual bent rather than an emotional bent. Just some of my views. Dave.

The high priestess - moon thread was originally posted on 12 Aug 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.