How far can we stretch the Hierophant?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

samantha	04 Aug 2003
I've often associated the Hierophant with groups , esp. self regulating groups whose common ideas/ philosophy hold them together somehow . More often than not I feel that such groups are conservative , in so far as they uphold mainstream values (as typified in various Instituions ). But does this ALWAYS have to be the case ? In a reading for a friend (she's having problems , including sexual ones , with her husband) I pulled this card in the "What she doesn't know about him..." position . Anyway , my first (unvoiced) thought on seeing this was : He's Gay ....tho' he may not be active , just identifies with such. Then I thought ,no , no thats wrong .....doesn't fit in with the Conservative morality .....then thought , but WHOSE morality am I talking about here ? Perspective being everything ! So , whose "morality" and/ or "traditions" can the Hierophant embody ? Does he change with the times ?

Shoshin	04 Aug 2003
Hi Samantha, To me, it doesn't mean that he's gay. I see more of a conservative upbringing that's impinging on his present marrage and sex life. I wouldn't be surpised if he was brought up in the kind of environment where sex was taught to be evil or bad. Catholic school perhaps?

dadsnook2000	04 Aug 2003
My first thought is, "whose rules are being strained?" Could not one of this couple be more sexually or expressively adventurous in contrast to the other being more in a rut? Or, perhaps each has reached a point where new rules of interaction need to be restated -- or even initially expressed. I'd be inclinded to pursue these approaches first. Dave.

samantha	04 Aug 2003
Shoshin : Good point about the upbringing . Infact your right here since the guy in question went to an (English) public school ....and yes , my friend has often said to me " He finds it difficult to express himself emotionally " . Thing is , she already knows this ....so it doesn't really tie in with the cards position ( which is supposed to be the "eye opener " .....you know , what you don't know , and need to know. ) dadsnook : "Whose rules are being strained " . Yes , thats another good take on this . I hadn't thought of viewing this from an "advice" point of view . I'll go and think about that some more. I'd still be interested to hear people's opinions on what kind of Morality/ groups can be represented by the Hierophant ..... outside the context of this throw.

Little Baron	04 Aug 2003
Hi all ... bit off topic here but ... does anybody have a card in the deck that they would associate with somebody being gay ... just sprung to mind when I read this because I remember reading a bit in Carolyn Clare Townsends book 'Dancing with the Juggler' where she spoke of the king of Cups. She said 'Is he gay? He seems so sensitive and understanding. Well, he might be, depends who he is sitting with'. Not sure that i totally agree with this interpretation - to be sensitive does not mean you are gay; many gay people I have met are not sensitive. Just wondered if through experience, or the court in a certain deck you use, has ever made you think this when reading? Did it turn out to be good intuition? Yaboot

DimGenesis	04 Aug 2003
Well, a different point of view: I have sometimes found the Hierophant to be pointing not to connection to a conservative or moral group, but to the exact opposite: the lack of commitment to a cause being an inner turmoil the person not always acknowledges. Some people struggle to find individuality in the group, and some struggle so much with themselves to be accepted in any group that they never fit anywhere. Perhaps the problem with your querant's partner is not that he is too committed to a group, but that he's trying to find individuality in that group and trying so hard that he ends up getting distant from everyone, including his own wife. On the other hand, perhaps his Catholic upbringing has left issues in him and now he's having trouble adapting to different settings (his wife, being a regular tarot querant, would already be a different setting he'd need to get used to). He might be trying so hard to feel like he belongs in the group that this is making him sick, and disturbing his marriage. Either way, this would require closer observation from your friend, because in both ways her husband would be even less aware of his own problem than her.

samantha	04 Aug 2003
Yaboot001 : Yes , like you I think its dangerous to assign one card to one meaning ....but I get the feeling that individual readers do come up with their own "trigger" (?!) cards which alert them to something, be that sexual orientation or anything else ! A while back Mojo told me that he often got the knight of Cups to signify a gay guy ......this has not been my experience , but I'm sure that it was for him. Still , while we are on the subject , in my readings Temperance has often come up to signify bisexuality , but again this is just a personal take.. and not gospel ( tho' what is ??!!) DimGenius : Hello ! Nice to "meet" you ! Sorry , just to say , this guy is not Catholic ! And the wife is not really "into" tarot . She is probably the most sceptical friend that I have in that respect , but went ahead with the reading anyway ! I was interested in your seeing the Hierophant as "lack of commitment to a cause" . Do you read with reversals ? At the moment I'm beginning to waver on using reversals or not ....but thats another issue!

Umbrae	04 Aug 2003
My opinion: The difficulty is the question and spread. The true context of the spread. Look at the position: What she does not know about him. It’s not a second person context, but a third person context in relation to a second person context. And yet the position implies a cut and dried answer. However, let’s look at the answer in a deeper mode. Actions for the good of the whole in a group context makes sense if you remove the sexual implications (it’s so damned easy to get carried away with the questions…). Nowadays the Hierophant is about knowledge attained through working and participating in groups and teams, as opposed to knowledge gained though conventional learning institutions, or the church. But the Hierophant is not static. It always must be in a variable context. Remember, it was the experience of mystery, sometimes mixed with fear that produced religion. Take that sentence, and shine it upon ‘what she doesn’t know’. You can travel into fantasy, or search the real world, seeking a place that resonates the mystery...but that place exists in your heart. And perhaps that scares him…perhaps he has tastes that run less catholic and more towards the mysterious…the fantasy. Perhaps he fears the spiritual. Perhaps her fears the mundane. Perhaps there is a relationship with fear that needs to be explored. Make sense?

DimGenesis	04 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by samantha I was interested in your seeing the Hierophant as "lack of commitment to a cause" . Do you read with reversals ? At the moment I'm beginning to waver on using reversals or not ....but thats another issue! No, I don't use reversals, because they narrow my reading and don't leave much space left for intuition. It works for some people, but I personally need space to think about the read, I don't go to cards for made up answers. It goes back to what was mentioned before, how dangerous it is to give each card just one never-changing meaning. To me, all the cards in a raw state have dubious meanings, until I spread them and start to read. It's when I'll know if it's good, bad, or somewhere inbetween. That's how I've managed to get the Hierophant in its completely opposite meaning; I realised that, given the situation, that's what the card was trying to tell me. Nice to meet you too! :D

samantha	04 Aug 2003
Umbrea: Do you know , as I was typing this I was thinking , " Umbrea wouldn't like this 2nd/ 3rd person ......." and then "YYYAAAHHH" !! You move quickly ! One last time (!!) HE'S NOT CATHOLIC !! ....ok , got that out of my system ....... From what I know of him he's pretty pragmatic ...not intuitive .....more facts orientated. What you said about "Fear" . That's a distinct possibility . As acouple they are chalk and cheese . She IS Dramatic .....passionate .....(think Isadora Duncan driving her Bugatti and your getting close.) And I can well imagine that something about her terrifies him . Maybe the way she gives herself so completely to life ....no fear , no reservation.

Little Baron	04 Aug 2003
Just my little input. I always think of The Heirophant as being order and doing things the way they should be done. Some people are like that sexually and not very experimental. Maybe its advice is for your friend to take things gradually with this person in those areas so that they feel more comfortable with their sexuality and fantasies. Turning the card on its head, maybe a little order and 'domination' is what he requires but has never been able to tell her and thinks that she might look at him differently. Y :laugh: (Spice is the Spice of Life)

firemaiden	04 Aug 2003
I always think of the hierophant as being about a magical person, a holy man, one capable of chanelling the divine, a great healer.

samantha	04 Aug 2003
Yaboot001 : Yes . She says (and I realise that it takes two to tango) that he is not sexually adventurous. So maybe this card is reflecting the fear/barrier scenario that you have all picked up on. And maybe she's not aware of how deep this goes with him , or the reasons for such .........which brings me full circle to the issue of repressed feelings . Hmmm, these public school boys you know .......(* said partly in jest, but only partly*)

Little Baron	04 Aug 2003
Do you remember the other cards around this one? Maybe they might offer a few more clues?

Elle	04 Aug 2003
I generally read the Hierophant as institutions; teams; rigid dogma; conservative, orthodox views (patriarchy?). I read the Hierphant RX as unorthodox views (could be homosexuality I guess; rebellion against conservative or traditional views). I like Temperance as bisexuality - makes a lot of sense to me, must keep it in mind. Thanks. Heard the Knight of Cups as a sensitive, poetic, type, which I suppose one could read as a homosexual. Sounds more to me that this couple are opposites, just as you said. The woman is passionate and the husband has problems with emotional-passionate expression. Some men fear passionate women - its that Madonna/Whore conflict, but lets not introduce psychobabble (esp from a psy- in- training, such as myself). Warmest, Elle

Elle	04 Aug 2003
Oh, and Hierophant RX can be an "outsider". Elle

Umbrae	04 Aug 2003
Catholic is not a religion. That would be Roman Catholic. The adjective catholic means universal, widespread, and extensive. …and who cares what I think…

Elle	04 Aug 2003
Oh, Umbrae you know we care what you think, now give us a purrr and a smile... Elle

carrielynnsim	04 Aug 2003
Ok... I hate to be the voice of opposition, but here goes: Because you were reading the cards, I have to say, maybe that could be valid... and because you never read it that way before makes me believe that. I don't know the situation, I just wanted to say think about it, don't automatically dismiss your instincts. Carrie

The How far can we stretch the Hierophant? thread was originally posted on 04 Aug 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.