Jupiter/Juno?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Thirteen |
18 Aug 2003 |
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While discussing the differences between Moon and HPS in isthmus most excellent thread, we started to wander into a discussion about differences between Empress and HPS as aspects of the great mother goddess.
It occured to me that there's a deck (a type of Marseilles? I say that because there is a Juggler instead of the Magician) where there is no High Priestess or Hierophant. There is, instead, Juno and Jupiter.
I've always found this curious--and more than a little redundant. But now I'm beginning to think otherwise....
Having Jupiter and Juno instead of HPS/Hierophant slants the deck toward classical/Rennissance/Roman myth. In Rome, "Juno" refered to more than just the wife of Jupiter. In ever home, there was always a "Juno" image to stand as the guardian spirit of the materfamilias, the female head of the household. Which makes the card even more interesting because she (and Jupiter) become simultaniously both deities and household spirits; the uber-father and uber-mother if you will.
Having Juno instead of the HPS also tosses the Moon--and the potential redundancy of having the Moon symbolize both HPS and Empress--out of the picture (the cards I have only use garden and pomegranate symbolism for the Juno card, not a moon in sight!); you just have the vestal/wife/mother/domestic/earth goddess. She is Gaia/Demeter/Venus (originally, in Roman mythology, a garden goddess!), and Maiden-wise, she is Vesta, but there is no "Diana" element. That is left for the Moon card.
Meanwhile you have the Emperor and Empress as very earthly rulers. They are not divine (or, if they are, they are, like the Roman Emperors, gods on earth); rather they are rulers of the Empire.
Thus, I begin to think that this deck, at least, is trying to make a very clean distinction between divine/spiritual mother/father and imperial/earthly mother/father. Juno/Jupiter get all the divine symbolism while the Emperor/Empress remain pictured with symbols common to worldly Kings/Queens.
Has anyone else seen a deck with Jupiter/Juno instead of Hierophant/HPS? Or can anyone with more knowledge of tarot history than I offer some background on this?
Other thoughts?
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| Diana |
18 Aug 2003 |
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Thirteen: the deck you are referring to is the 19th Century Swiss 1JJ deck. A historical deck, Marseille-type. A wonderful deck that I would not want to live without.
The reason they replaced the Pope and the Papess was to be politically correct - or rather "religiously" correct - so as not to offend the Catholic Church.
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| Macavity |
18 Aug 2003 |
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I do wonder why those nearest to the protestant reformation of M.Calvin et. al. would be concerned about offending catholics? ;) Not being antagonistic, just genuinely wondering about things historical!
I suppose it wasn't as bad as using Bacchus for the Pope(?) as in the Flemish decks? })
The "Empress/High Priestess" region is interesting... in the Minchaite too. Here we say goodbye to the H-P and replace the Empress by a rather androgynous "Grand Duke". (The Hierophant still matches quite well with a kind of "Eastern (orthodox?) Emperor"!) I suspect they introduce a lot of the essence of the H-P by reintroducing "missing" (from Tarot) virtues: Prudence, Faith, Hope and Charity... doubtless to augment Tarot's existing "angels" :)
I do find the balancing act: spiritual/secular? male/female? Intriguing!
Macavity
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| Elle |
18 Aug 2003 |
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The Emperor/Empress and the Hierophant/Popess keep cropping up in pairs in my personal spreads lately. It is interesting that they keep finding each other in the CC. Never as mixed pairs, either!
Warmest,
Elle
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| isthmus nekoi |
19 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by Thirteen
Thus, I begin to think that this deck, at least, is trying to make a very clean distinction between divine/spiritual mother/father and imperial/earthly mother/father. Juno/Jupiter get all the divine symbolism while the Emperor/Empress remain pictured with symbols common to worldly Kings/Queens.
Maybe a variation of 'as above so below'? I wonder exactly when the change came about. It's an interesting distinction to be made as the king/queen figure almost always gets some sort of divine connection when taken in a symbolic context.
But Bacchus as the Pope??? Maybe in those ecstatic cults :)
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| Maan |
19 Aug 2003 |
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There is a dutch deck that has both the HPS and hierophant and Jupiter and Juno.
The makes of the deck claim to have restored the tarot in its thrue form.
Its called' de tarot i de herstelde orde" i believe tarotgarden has got some pictures of it
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| Macavity |
19 Aug 2003 |
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In similar vein? Now I think to look: Bacchus (qv) was from the intriguing Vandenborre Tarot! ;)
Macavity
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| Diana |
19 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by Macavity
I do wonder why those nearest to the protestant reformation of M.Calvin et. al. would be concerned about offending catholics? ;) Not being antagonistic, just genuinely wondering about things historical!
Macavity, I have to go off-topic here to answer you. But Switzerland at that time was terribly divided religiously. And this was one of the factors, amongst others, that led to the Sonderburg War in 1847. But trouble had been brewing for a long long time.
The radicals wanted a secular state. And they took severe measures against what they considered to be exaggerated power of the Roman Catholic Church, especially the Jesuits. So the seven Catholic Cantons formed a secret alliance, called the Sonderbund, in order to defend the interests of the Church and to fight against centralised power. So when the other cantons heard about this secret alliance (didn't stay secret for long :D ), they declared war. The Sonderbund lost the war.
Now, it is possible that Tarot cards were more popular in the Catholic areas than the Protestant areas.
Still today, there are about 45% (give or take) Catholics in Switzerland. It's the biggest religion here.
Okay, back to Jupiter and Juno.
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| Macavity |
19 Aug 2003 |
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Thanks Diana. I should know such things. I'd have never made it through the (movie) "Die Schweizermacher" type history tests! ;)
Macavity
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| Moongold |
19 Aug 2003 |
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While discussing the differences between Moon and HPS in isthmus most excellent thread, we started to wander into a discussion about differences between Empress and HPS as aspects of the great mother goddess.
Having Juno instead of the HPS also tosses the Moon--and the potential redundancy of having the Moon symbolize both HPS and Empress--out of the picture (the cards I have only use garden and pomegranate symbolism for the Juno card, not a moon in sight!); you just have the vestal/wife/mother/domestic/earth goddess. She is Gaia/Demeter/Venus (originally, in Roman mythology, a garden goddess!), and Maiden-wise, she is Vesta, but there is no "Diana" element. That is left for the Moon card.
Thirteen’s suggestion makes a lot of sense. The Mother Goddess is an aspect of the Feminine archetype, and the Moon is more representative of the Feminine than the Mother. The distinction is important. The Feminine is the Primal Archetype and the Mother Goddess is a Secondary Archetype.
So the representations of the Moon under the feet in High Priestess and Empress could simply be symbolizing that these women are quite at ease with that part of their femininity that Moon symbolizes. In fact in the schema of cards representing the feminine archetype I looked at, Moon wasn’t mentioned. Lunar symbols were suggested however, as symbolizing the feminine. Is the Moon an archetype at all?
It is interesting to consider the Masculine as a primary archetype and the tarot representations of this aechetype: Emperor, Magician, Hierophant, Sun and Hermit We don’t see any of these figures sitting with their feet on the Sun. The Sun represents masculinity, however.
The ambiguity of the Moon symbol intrigues me. Moon represents the feminine in particular ways but also represents the uncontrollable unconscious. So Moon represents ego without boundary and Sun represents healthy ego boundaries and individuation. Who wrote that Script?
I guess I am heading towards new thread territory, now. I think it may be interesting to have a discussion about archetypes and how the Tarot uses them. They are supposed to be universal principles but I see them as quite subjective in the way they are applied. This brings home the importance of having Tarot decks that are culturally and philosophically relevant.
For me also it makes the discussion of the Tarot history more interesting. When did particular symbolism come into play and why? Can we pick some of this up in the Hysterical Forum, Diana?
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| Thirteen |
22 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by Moongold So the representations of the Moon under the feet in High Priestess and Empress could simply be symbolizing that these women are quite at ease with that part of their femininity that Moon symbolizes. In fact in the schema of cards representing the feminine archetype I looked at, Moon wasn’t mentioned. Lunar symbols were suggested however, as symbolizing the feminine. Is the Moon an archetype at all?
It is interesting to consider the Masculine as a primary archetype and the tarot representations of this aechetype: Emperor, Magician, Hierophant, Sun and Hermit We don’t see any of these figures sitting with their feet on the Sun.
Wow. Back at ya Moongold--really excellent point. And then there's the Chariot with both moon and sun symbols....
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| isthmus nekoi |
23 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by Moongold
Is the Moon an archetype at all?
This depends largely on your definition of 'archetype'. I would say no. The moon is a symbol. But I think I hold a narrower definition: archetypes have functions which are contained and directed through symbols. Archetypes are universal, symbols are culturally inflected (so you may find symbols that hold similar archetypal energies across cultures - usually quaternity almost always symbolizes completion OR you will find symbols holding oppositional energies, a different extreme in a difference culture - many associations w/gender can be like this).
It is interesting to consider the Masculine as a primary archetype and the tarot representations of this aechetype: Emperor, Magician, Hierophant, Sun and Hermit We don’t see any of these figures sitting with their feet on the Sun. The Sun represents masculinity, however.
The ambiguity of the Moon symbol intrigues me. Moon represents the feminine in particular ways but also represents the uncontrollable unconscious. So Moon represents ego without boundary and Sun represents healthy ego boundaries and individuation. Who wrote that Script?
(in my best angry 2nd wave feminist voice) MEN!!! Just kidding, I have no clue where this originates, I've seen arguments going up to prehistory so who knows? Also, I find I must mention the fact that the moon is a traditionally *masculine* symbol in other cultures.
Or maybe you don't see masculine figures resting their feet on the sun b/c it'd hurt :P
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| Thirteen |
23 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by isthmus nekoi archetypes have functions which are contained and directed through symbols. Archetypes are universal, symbols are culturally inflected
Good distinction! Archetypes are things like "the Strong Man," or "The great Mother." As you say, they're universal. All human societies have them--stories of the strongest man who ever lived, or the motherly goddess who gave birth to the universe. They are the distilled version of universal human types--like, for example, the wise old man--a culmation of all elders, their minds full of accumulated knowledge. This old man archtype appears in just about every culture and age from Chinese Kung Fu movie to Merlin of England to Aboriginal elder to Shamanic wise man. And there's our Hermit in the Tarot.
But symbols vary. As you point out, isthmus, in some cultures, it is the Moon which is masculine, the Sun feminine. In some cultures the color white is used for mourning rather than black, and red is for weddings, not white. So, I guess we have to separate out the symbolism from the Archtype. The HPS and the Empress are Archtypes. The Moon, whether it appears in those cards are not, is a symbol.
Going back to the original thread, I think the HPS and the Moon vary most strongly in that. The Moon card doesn't even, necessarily, symbolize femininity. It only symbolizes the unconscious, uncontrolled mind--the wild, animal side of us. Meanwhile, the HPS is the archtype of pure femininity, the moon at her foot indicative of her her monthly cycle as well as her connection to the unconscious.
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| Moongold |
23 Aug 2003 |
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What I understand of Thirteen's point about "reorganizing" the archetypes is really interesting and underpins the whole of Tarot, I think. Perhaps my choice of phrase is clumsy but you probably know what I mean.
With the Jupiter/Juno thing, someone has actually done this in the past. The replacement of Papesse with High Priestess also illustrates this, and there are quite few contemporary decks which do this as well.
Do you think this is worth a separate thread? A sort of How would you improve the structure of Tarot thread?
Or perhaps some discussion about how culture does influence the representation of Tarot archetypes? There are so many decks now that most of us can find a deck which we feel comfortable with. I love the Shining Tribe of Rachel Pollack and on Friday got the Ancestral Path. Both are both refreshingly different.
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| Thirteen |
23 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by Moongold Do you think this is worth a separate thread?
Sure. Why not a new thread. Something like, "Symbol vs. Archtype"? Discussing the influence of western symbolism in most tarot vs. universal archtypes?
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The Jupiter/Juno? thread was originally posted on 18 Aug 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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