new planetary/astrological correspondences for the majors

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

DeLani	30 Aug 2003
Hey all, I've just been doing some meditating and journaling and spellwork with the cards lately, and keep coming up to something that has always bothered me. Namely, that Capricorn is associated with the Devil, and Saturn with the World. This just never jibed with me. I'm a cappy, and I just don't get it, and never have. Then I began realizing that this system comes from the Golden Dawn. While I respect a lot of their vision and wisdom, maybe they flubbed on this one, and maybe a few others. So, I submit a new version of astrological correspondences for the majors. All are the same as the Golden Dawn system, except: 5. The Hierophant. In my system, it would be symbolized by Capricorn, not Taurus. Capricorn is very much associated with teaching, aesceticism (sp?), tradition, authority, and institutions. More importantly to me, it just feels right. 13. Death as Saturn, not Scorpio. The figure in the card is totally Chronos, the Grim reaper, all aspects or derivations of Saturn. Saturn is the hard taskmaster, the one who cuts away what is no longer needed - but so that new life can grow more healthy. 15. The Devil - Scorpio, not Capricorn. Scorpio is much more associated with extremes, obsessions, secrets, and sexual stuff. I never did understand why Capricorn was put with this card. Capricorns are too uptight for it! 21. The World - Taurus, not Saturn. The figure of the World is very similar to Hathor, the Egyptian cow-headed goddess of love, beauty, sensuality, and dance. Very earthy and grounded, but full of blessings and abundance. And Hathor is related to Taurus by the bovine form and by Taurus' ruling by Venus (which, Hathor was called the "Aphrodite of Egypt" by the Greeks). Now, I know that this puts them "out of order" of the wheel of the zodiac, but so what. The order the cards are in wasn't set until relatively recently. There have been several changes to the form of the Tarot since its creation, and so I think perhaps another change might be necessary. So, what are your thoughts?

dadsnook2000	30 Aug 2003
The problem, as I see it, with linking astrological symbolism with tarot cards is 1) signs are not planets and planets are not signs -- so you have to ask, "Is it OK to link them to the Major Arcana?. 2) The linkage is probably not a direct astro-symbol to tarot-symbol linkage, 3) can you accept that some astro-symbols and some tarot cards may not be well-linked? It seems to me that some cards have blatent astro symbolism because the creator of the card wanted to bring a certain symbol-set to mind. Major Arcana cards depict archetypes of human nature, planets depict energies (love, thinking, action, vision, patience, response, etc.). Minor Arcana cards depict situational models. There are differing systems of thought operational here. Just my thoughts after having thought on this subject myself. Dave.

Minderwiz	30 Aug 2003
Yes, we have discussed this issue before. and no doubt will do so again because it is an interesting one. I agree with Dave - there is no direct correspondence and trying to force one will always break down at some point. Some links may well fit better than others but the symbolism of the Tarot is not the symbolism of Astrology - even though there may be similarities in places. What's more there's a third dimension - psychology here. We tend to look at the Tarot and Astrology through the lens of Freudian, Jungian, or other psychological approaches. Clearly many deck designers and modern Astrologers have been heavily influenced by psychological theory and this may also account for many of the perceived similarities. Similarities which would not have made much sense 150 years ago.

Thirteen	31 Aug 2003
First, let's agree that there are problems with such links and there always will be. And, absolutely, they were biasly picked according to the prejudices of the Golden Dawn--and there were and always will be arguments over them. Second let's agree that you can certainly do whatever seems right to you. That's fine. However, if we're going to discuss it--rather than just say, "here's what I'm doing, the rest of you do what you like," then we also have to agree to connect the MEANING of the CARD with the MEANING of the SIGN, not just say, "This doesn't feel right to me." So, allow me to stand up for the assignments as they stand--though I suspect I'm going to be the odd man out (devil's advocate) in this thread: Quote: Originally posted by DeLani 5. The Hierophant. In my system, it would be symbolized by Capricorn, not Taurus. Capricorn is very much associated with teaching, aesceticism (sp?), tradition, authority, and institutions. First, Taurians are often bull-headed and subborn, conservative--very much the "hidebound" aspect of the Hierophant, and very close to some of your Capricorn values. They are also practical, kind, loving, appreciative of others talents--very much the compassionate spiritual leader. Yes, they are materialistic and love beautiful things--which is the one weakness in this association. But then let's remember that the cards reflect the positive and negative--here the negative is that of giving into materialism, as the old Church often did (still does?)--building beautiful cathedrals, wearing beautiful, expensive velvets, living a rich life while preaching poverty. A hidebound priest who lives in luxury sounds very much like a Taurus (negative Taurus) to me. On the other hand, a priest who likes the material world--a Friar Tuck sort--enough to understand human weaknesses, etc. seems like a very positive Taurus to me. A kind, fat, friendly Friar who doesn't demand people be aesthetics, but rather takes the beauty he sees in the spirit and brings it down to Earth for his flock. Very much the job of our Hierophant. I don't see Capricorn anywhere, by the way. A Capricorn's institution is a bank, not a church. Quote: 13. Death as Saturn, not Scorpio. The figure in the card is totally Chronos, the Grim reaper, all aspects or derivations of Saturn. But Saturn is not "DEATH"--no matter if he's sometimes pictured that way. Saturn is TIME, with the hour glass. And the WORLD is all about time--about reaching an elder age (like old man Cronos) when you know all time can teach you. And the world turns and life starts anew. Scorpio, on the other hand, has alway related to death as a sign. Description from a zodiac book: "Scorpio: birth, life, death...regeneration, transformation, metamorphosis." Sounds like the Death card to me! Scorpio even emblematically transforms--from scorpion to serpent to eagle. Death, let us remember, is not about TIME or DEATH but TRANSFORMATION. So on this one, I'm going to have to resoundingly disagree. Saturn is TIME, and suits the spinning, day-after-day symbol of the world. Scorpio is transformation, and suits the Death card perfectly. Quote: 15. The Devil - Scorpio, not Capricorn. Scorpio is much more associated with extremes, obsessions, secrets, and sexual stuff. I never did understand why Capricorn was put with this card. Capricorns are too uptight for it! Are they? Here's a quote from that Zodiac book, "When a...mature Capricorn makes love, it is lovemaking at its very best...Capricorns want to reach a state of total satisfaction not only for themselves but also for their partners." Capricorns are also "perfectionists who are never satisfied" and "status seeking, fatalistic, critical, unforgiving, slave drivers and egotistical." Those are, of course, just the negatives, but I wanted you to see why Capricorn might relate to the Devil. You see, Capricorns aren't just stubborn goats--they're mountain goats. They climb. They don't want just good, comfortable things like Taurus, they want WEALTH. They don't want to make love, they want to make the BEST love. They don't just want a car, they want a Rolls Royce. They don't just want to belong to any club--they want to belong to an EXCLUSIVE club. Is this beginning to resemble the Devil yet? How about those two chained at his hooves--chained to perfectionism, to always wanting more, to always being afraid of what others will think, to always trying to keep up with the Jones? I think Capricorn suits the Devil very well. Quote: 21. The World - Taurus, not Saturn. The figure of the World is very similar to Hathor, the Egyptian cow-headed goddess of love, beauty, sensuality, and dance. ] That's very nice but what has it to do with TIME, with wisdom, with being a wise teacher (like wise old Saturn, father Time?), with the turning of the wheel? The World (or Universe) card has nothing to do with love, beauty, sensuality--it has only to do with travel, time and mastery.

Macavity	31 Aug 2003
I sense one point is that indeed we are not comparing like with like? But I now begin to see the use of correspondance with other systems as one might add additional (musical) notes to a basic major or minor triad (three note chord). Sometimes the result is harmony, sometimes dischord. BUT e.g. a jazz musician might find the latter no less appealing or indeed useful. The "foreign" tones might catapult the whole tune into a totally new, uncharted territory. I approve of convention... 'Coz I'm a Taurian? No! - Simply because (just as with Tarot's "meanings") they are useful... starting points. The attraction is then, with more people (than none!) familiar with a system, we have, at least some commonality to work with in discussions? ;) My concern is that too many conventions might equal Confusion! But, only the individual can decide what constitutes too many? My recent acquisition, the Ansata Tarot has a totally different scheme to the G.D. and (rather interestingly) contains elements of both the above. The inherent claim is that it was devised precisely from "astrological" perspectives . And, indeed, from a lay point of view, I see the point of some of these alternative ideas - Others, I can't. I append it here, for fun, but with the caveat (as in sports programs?) "If you don't want to know... Look away now!" :laugh: But, which is "right" (with allegedly no right), who knows? The Ansata Way Fool - Pluto Magus - Sun Priestess - Moon Empress - Virgo Emperor - Jupiter Hierophant - Saturn Lovers - Mercury Chariot - Sagittarius Justice - Libra Hermit - Neptune Fortune - Capricorn Strength - Strength Hanged Man - Uranus Death - Scorpio Temperance - Aquarius Devil - Mars Tower - Aries Star - Venus Moon - Cancer Sun - Gemini Judgement - Pisces World - Taurus Macavity (Taurian & Sword-people's Popular Liberation Front) })

matfav	31 Aug 2003
The astrological symbolism with the cards are there for a reason, a good reason. YES capricorn is assigned the devil, as the devil rules fear, most cappies are fearful. The devil rules cold hard reality, so is the associations with Saturn. The Astrological symbolism were assigned to the astrology paths on the tree of life. and with the Tarot correspondences. Saturn capricorn for the devil DOES fit. fits well.

Kiama	31 Aug 2003
matfav: The problem is, everybody has their own personal interpretation of both astrology and Tarot, and so whilst for you, Devil as Capricorn may fit, for DeLani and others, it may not. The system was created by men, from their own personal understanding of both Tarot and astrology. Can we not do the same in order to help ourselves understand both astrology and Tarot better, on a more personal level? Kiama

Thirteen	31 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by matfav The astrological symbolism with the cards are there for a reason, a good reason. YES capricorn is assigned the devil, as the devil rules fear, most cappies are fearful. That's a really excellent point. You know, I just went over some notes I'd written on the Devil in one of my original notebooks. There it was--the Capricorn aspect popping out from my description of the Devil card: "Self-induced restrictions, fear of change; will you laugh at problems or chain yourself to them with dour fatalism? Focus especially on chains of our own making." To me that's Capricorn through and through. I've a close friend who's very much a cappy; when in a good mood, he can lighten any problem with a very funny sense of humor. When in a bad mood, there's no one more fatalistic. He'll chain himself to a course of action, refusing to make any effort to free himself or even see alternatives. Here's something else I wrote that's rather interesting (good to go back over such notes!): "The Devil holds up the means of release like the Hierophant. He can limit or free folks from material bondage." In the Hierophant's case, the limiting is in being too traditional or concervative (obsessing on rules about what to eat, drink--when and how to have sex). The teacher or priest becomes more interested in controlling the followers who kneel before him seeking wisdom and help (a Taurian fault, as Taurians always feel they know what's best for others). The key to freedom, therefore, is Taurian insight, passing on the knowledge of what is spiritual or beautiful rather than trying to control the material. In the Devil's case, the limitation of of our own making; the key to freedom, therefore, is self-knowledge (knowledge of what enslaves us--Fear or Ego in particular). This also reflects the growth of the person both astrolgically and in the cards. The early signs, like the early cards, are often about what we learn in childhood. The Hierophant is the teacher we learn from after leaving behind mom and dad. The teacher can limit or free our minds, depending on what and how he teaches. But by Capricorn, we're mature adults, on our own, and how we limit or free ourselves is our choice.

isthmus nekoi	31 Aug 2003
I have 2 decks, Thoth and Vertigo. One follows the Golden Dawn assocations, the other shakes things up and adds in the outer planets (Uranus, Neptune & Pluto). In Vertigo, Saturn is Death and World. The Devil and Hierophant have no association. There are many other changes. When I use Thoth, I follow him, when I'm w/Vertigo, I follow her. I'm cool w/both. Maybe I will get a deck that has no associations so I don't have to juggle the additional input.... Cappy as Devil.... As a Cap/Merc sun, I can totally see Cap as Devil, and do not think Caps have less sex drive or necessarily uptight. They are just *controlled* about sex. Hence the bondage highlighted in the Devil card. Caps are half goat - they can be randy, naughty animals :) Also, Caps are earth signs; these signs are fertile - however, Cap is the *winter* earth sign, therefore, Cap represents the fertility that is hidden, or germinating. This is why Cap is on the cusp of the winter solstice, the longest night of the year, a day when *darkness* rules. The *best of* mentality though, I would ascribe more to Leo. Leo wants all the prestige. Cap is different. Cap doesn't care about Rolls Royce or Armani suits in and of themselves. That's Leo. What Caps want is *power*, and this is the downfall of the Devil.

Minderwiz	31 Aug 2003
I started out by saying that there is also the lens of psychological thought behind much of the Astrological/Tarot associations. One thing that the psychological approach to Tarot has done is to equate planets with signs and with Houses. For example the link between the eighth House and death is extremely old - at least two thousand years. The modern psychological approach is that as the eighth sign is Scorpio, so Scorpio must therefore be the sign of death. However, historically it is not associated with death (though it is associated with some rather unpleasant diseases of the reproductive organs). The seventeenth Century Astrologer, William Lilly, never mentions death as a quality or area for Scorpio. Richard Saunders who wrote The Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physick, spent nearly thirty pages discussing indicators of death - Scorpio never gets a mention - though the lords (rulers) of the first, sixth and eighth feature strongly. Neither is Scorpio the sign of regeneration or rebirth - though Pluto may well be associated with regeneration. Now it is possible that the modern approach represents an improvement or is more accurate but that is not really my point. The point is that the link to death is a modern one, by people who have simplified Astrological relationships and who see both Astrology and Tarot through the lens of Freud or Jung or other. The association is not inherent in either the cards or the signs.

DeLani	31 Aug 2003
Hmm...all good points made, and taken. I have used the GD system for 17 years now, and it does work to some degree. And let's all remember we aren't talking about Capricorns or Taurans as people of that sun sign; we are talking about the sign itself, where various planets and houses can land. Their effect on individuals will vary. As noted, there are apparently other systems, that I wasn't even aware! That makes me feel good that I'm not the only person in the universe to think the GD system isn't the gospel-perfect-end-of-discussion way. As I had said before though, the Devil = capricorn never did set well with me. I see how the fear/bondage thing can come into the Devil correspondence. I just felt that it really shortchanged both the meaning of the card (because I believe the Devil has a good side, too) and the sign of Capricorn. Because, in our defense, the desire for power or status and our fears are not us through-and-through. Many astrologers call Cappies (when in the positive mode, of course) the ascended masters, the teachers, and the wayshowers for others. As a Capricorn myself, I have been told by all of my students (in many different fields of study) that I am a good teacher, and indeed, I genuinely enjoy teaching. And wouldn't you say, that the desire for power, deathly fear of change, blind adherence to convention, etc., speak to the negative end of the Hierophant, and that being a teacher and wayshower speak to the positive? It just seems to fit in a more holistic way, integrating both the positive and the negative of both the card and the sign. Now onto Death. *In my personal opinion*, the death card is necessarily a function of time. As a Pagan, I see Death as a natural, if sometimes painful, part of the cycle of life. Which is a function of time - the seasons, etc. That is what the Grim Reaper is all about - the cutting of the grain so that life can continue through the winter. I believe that is why the Grim Reaper -type figure is mostly shown in most decks for this card, for this association. And, the Grim Reaper is a derivation of Chronos, who was the Greek god that "correlates" (not offence to anyone here) to Saturn. And believe me, Saturn (as a planetary influence) is a very hard, merciless taskmaster (as in Saturn returns). But his lessons are always needed. Now the Devil: bondage, fear, addictions, self-destructive behaviour, etc. Scorpios can also be very relentless, intense, obsessive, etc. OK, so it's not a perfect match, but I don't really think any of them are. *For me,* it seems to line up better than Capricorn. Finally, I do think of the World as having a lot to do with sensuality, comfort, and joy. To me it is about enjoying the fruits of your labor or experience, the real, physical manifestations of the potentials that the Fool embodies. Yes, there are limitations, but within those limitations, there is bounty and abundance. Taurus is a fixed sign, and can be just about as stubborn as Capricorn, but Venus softens its hard edges and gives it a love of beauty and the blessings of the earth. Now, I know many won't agree; I didn't think they would. I'm not really trying to convince anyone to change their minds, just opening up the topic for discussion. Because I enjoy hearing the different opinions, and wanted to share mine.

Lee	31 Aug 2003
Thanks, DeLani, I enjoyed reading your views on these matters and I'm going to think more about your associations, I think you raise some excellent points. I think it needs to be remembered that the GD associations are not written in stone. They were thought up at the end of the 19th century by human beings, just like us. And while by now they do have a certain weight of tradition, I think it's okay to experiment with other associations. As others have pointed out, there is no exact one-to-one correspondence, since they really are two different symbol systems. Thus, whatever insights there are to be gained from comparing two different systems can only be enhanced by trying different combinations and contemplating the results. -- Lee

isthmus nekoi	31 Aug 2003
Those are good points, DeLani. Also society changes, so do the signs and planets' associations somewhat. For example, Jupiter used to be the great benific, and nowadays its his bad points that are stressed I find (overoptimism, overindulgence etc). And there are serious debates w/i astrology b/w traditional and modern rulerships, so I also would not say the GD associations are the *only* ones we should consider. Oh, and have you seen the Devil card for Thoth? This one totally stresses the fertile nature of Devil, the idea of consciousness, also phallic power etc it is a crazy card, lots more fun than Rider Waite's.

jmd	01 Sep 2003
For those who are interested in other associations which have also been made, to quote my fellow countryman MatFav, 'the astrological symbolism with the cards are there for a reason, a good reason'. Where we may somewhat disagree is which correlations between the two intrinsincally independent system seems best for certain times. Eliphas Levi connected, for example, the Hebrew letter Samekh and the sphere of Mercury to XV the Devil - for very good reason! (even if I don't tend to agree in most cases). Macavity's point of musical combination is certainly a very good metaphor. As any metaphor, it also has its limitations (and just in case someone reads this thinking that I am critical of his post, quite the contrary - rather, I was thinking through it and other thoughts arose...) In musical note combination (chords), we are dealing with items of the same kind. Maybe another way to compare astrology and Tarot is to think of colour and musical note. Certainly a synaesthesist would see without any doubt the colloration or each note - and hence correlate these. The problem is that another synaesthesist would see different, but as clearly 'connected', and without a shadow of doubt, colours for specific notes. Maybe the GD version has very many useful analogies which may instruct aspects of the card - but they are not the only ones, as DeLani and others demonstrate.

Thirteen	02 Sep 2003
Quote: I see how the fear/bondage thing can come into the Devil correspondence. I just felt that it really shortchanged both the meaning of the card (because I believe the Devil has a good side, too) and the sign of Capricorn. But I think you're shortchanging both sign and card as well by focusing on those things which matter to you. You're a teacher and a Capricorn, so the card that you see as teacher must be a Capricorn, yes? Doesn't work that way. Why not? Because YOU are many signs--Capricorn with what rising? What in your moon? What in your sixth house? Capricorn, let us remember, is not the sign of the "great teacher" but of "public life" which most books on the Zodiac define as "bureaucratic." Here's what my faithful book says about Capricorns: "they make good bankers, systems analysts, accountants, resarchers, dentists, architects, engineers, manufacturers and politicians...jewelers, funeral directors, art dealers, anthropoligists, and managers of...entertainers. They are also found on radio and television interview programs...their unflappable natures are perfect for serious work under pressure." However, if we look at any list of historic Capricorns we will find many a profession not listed above--painters, writers, scientists, religious leaders and, yes, teachers. How could these be Capricorns? Because no one is PURE Capricorn. That's the SIGN, not a person--and those jobs are the ones that work for Capricon heavy folk--not people who might just have Capricorn as their rising sign and no where else. So let's separate YOU from the SIGN. What makes this SIGN equal to the Devil card? Well, it's the sign of: AMBITION--very devil; and not necessarily in a bad way. It's good to have ambitions, to want things and climb any mountain to get to them. The devil wants what he wants and he'll do whatever's necessary to get it--charm you, trick you, lie to you, seduce you. The negative is when ambition chains you, makes you do bad things to achieve it, including walking all over others. Sounds very devil to me--both positive and negative. MATERIALISM--which isn't always a bad thing either, but that's certainly related to the Devil, a focus on Materialism. The Devil's always about having things--owing them, or being owned by them. SEX--as much as that of Scorpio if you want to know. Randy as a goat--ever heard that one? Capricorns are described as "over sexed" in my "Sex Signs" book. POWER--Capricorn likes having power and influence--very Devil. CONTROL--The Devil also likes being in control. These are the "extremes" of Capricorn (like the "perfect" job list), the highlights that link it to the Devil. Does that mean that's all there is to Capricorn? Of course not. Capricorns are also loyal, dedicated, honest, punctual, helpful, composed, artistic, patient and funny. But it's the distilled essence that links sign to card--and I will emphasize and re-emphasize, all those essential oils are POSTIVE as well as negative. Quote: And wouldn't you say, that the desire for power, deathly fear of change, blind adherence to convention, etc., speak to the negative end of the Hierophant, and that being a teacher and wayshower speak to the positive? But of course--but those also suit Taurus to a "tee." The problem here is that, once more, you're stacking the deck. You focus on what the Hierophat has that Capricorn has--but not what the Hierophant has that is MISSING in the SIGN of Capricorn. The first thing you need to do is stop equating the Hierophant only with "TEACHER." Here's some different meanings of the Hierophant (several, not mentioned here, suggested Aries as his sign!): Douglas: "Bridgemaker...links outer world of flesh...with inner one of spirit and tarnsubstantiality." Gray: "The inventor, the hippie...." Dawn: "The Wisdom and Founatin of Mercy...resembling the Magician, the Hermit and the Lovers in some respects." Grimaud: "Religious or scientific vocation." Huson: "psycholanlyist, father-confessor, rabbi." Kahn: "Teaching propensities...." Kaplan: "Orthodoxy." Knight: "one mediating power from higher to lower...." Mathers: Mercy...kindness.... Mayananda: "The creative will expressed....despenser of welfare, well being" Waite: "the ruling power of external religion...." I got these from Dictionary of the Tarot. Do you know, of 20 definitions, only three mentioned "Teacher." ELEVEN, on the other hand, mentioned: "Priest," "Religion" and "Kindness." Kindness and Mercy most of all. Guess which traits are not emphasized as Capricorn traits even among the very best Capricorn traits? Yep. Kindness and Mercy. Capricorns--ruled as you point out, by STRICT Saturn, don't have an overabundance of Compassion. Among the many other signs that do have an abundance of compassion--yep. Taurus. Who, one books notes, "never likes to hurt anyone's feelings." Also, "tender hearted, provides good comfort, good cheer and is a good listener." A good teacher? Maybe, maybe not--but an excellent Holy Man. And that's what the Hierophant is. Before he's a teacher, he's a holy man, someone who teaches by example. That man or woman who comes to the house of the poor and sick with soup and blankets and compassion. Good comfort--the material world made spiritual. This Gandhi we're talking about, Mother Teresa. Speaking as a Capricorn...would you say that was you? Don't get me wrong, if you love the Hierophant and want to make him your card, by all means, do. I love the Hermit and often see him as my card--but I'd never argue that the Hermit was Cancer. Not even if I do sometimes like to hide alone in my shell. As for Saturn, let's not confuse this ROMAN god who took on some of Cronos' attributes with the GREEK god Cronos. SATURN was a prosperous Agricultural god (hence the scythe) who became identified with "Wisdom, old age and father time." Romans often said that Saturn lived in a GOLDEN AGE, when all was peaceful, abundant and good. Sounds like the way you want to define the world card, no? As for Death--certainly it's harsh and severe. But it's not just about culling and cutting and being severe--it's about weathering the storm, surviving the loses, learning from the nadirs--and rising again, this time higher than before!. And that's Scorpio, the eighth house of fate and fortunes with Pluto (transformation and regeneration) as its planet. You say you're a pagan, so surely you know this: death isn't an end, it's a METAMORPHOSIS. What better sign for this powerful message than brave, unselfish, engmatic Scorpio, the HEROIC sign of the Zodiac, the pheonix (which many a deck has for its Death card)? Saturn may relate on some level to Death--but he's not TRANSFORMATION, not the pheonix who rises from the ashes--which is an essential meaning of the card, one you can't over look or forget (just like you can't ignore the compassionate, priestly aspect of the Hierophant). And that essential meaning is part and parcel of Scorpio.

Thirteen	02 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi The *best of* mentality though, I would ascribe more to Leo. Leo wants all the prestige. Cap is different. Cap doesn't care about Rolls Royce or Armani suits in and of themselves. That's Leo. What Caps want is *power*, and this is the downfall of the Devil. You're right--Cappy does want power, which is why he wants the Rolls. You see, Leo doesn't want the Rolls. He wants a stretch limo. In a stretch limo (the more ostentatious the better!) (1) he can pile his friends in and party the night away and (2) when a limo pulls up, people gather round to see who's in it. He can step out and folk will start snapping photos. He'll be the center of attention in or out of it! And yes, he wants those Armani suits because he looks so darn good in them :D Cappy wants the Rolls because: (1) It's a sign of wealth (hence power), (2) It's traditional and one of the best made cars in the world (Capricorns like things that are well made, efficent, old fashioned and worth the money), (3) It will earn him respect. When a Rolls pulls up, people don't gather round and peer in--they step back in respect (hence, power)! Also, a Rolls is comfortable, rich and private--the driver in the front, Cappy in the back (hence, power and respect once again). He doesn't want to party in his car (heaven forfend!). Nor does he want to wear Armani suits. That's not "the best" to a Capricorn. To a Cappy the best would be fitted, respectable, conservative suits tailored by one of the oldest shops in London. A suit, in short, to make him powerful, rich, repectable and traditional--NEVER flashly! In short, when I said that Capricorns wanted the best, I mean they want whatever will display to others their power--usually power in a very old monied, conservative fashion. Like an exclusive, members only club that's been around for 200 years, or one of those credit cards that only the very rich and powerful ever get to have (so rare and exclusive that only the rich and powerful know about them). These are symbols of status that our Capricorn works hard to earn--they indicate not only power, but the respect that every mountain goat requires.

isthmus nekoi	02 Sep 2003
lol, Thirteen, ah, I'd forgotten how stodgy rolls are compared to other status cars. Maybe if leo drove a rolls royce it would be RED! :P btw, Vertigo places Taurus w/the Hermit!!!

lunalafey	02 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani 13. Death as Saturn, not Scorpio. The figure in the card is totally Chronos, the Grim reaper, all aspects or derivations of Saturn. Saturn is the hard taskmaster, the one who cuts away what is no longer needed - but so that new life can grow more healthy. [/b] I'm a Capi too, not to into the capi=devil association....but I have known quite a few Capi's that battle with addictions, and have control issues- so it does make some sense to me.... I see capi's as one who must have some control somewhere. They want things to go at a steady pace....it's when those qualities turn to demands, and jealous motivation kicks in, do we see the devil in a Capi. for the capi nature can be quite determand. Now a few things that may or may not been mentioned (have not read everything yet) Death/ the grim reaper = Thanatos father time = Chronos Saturn is father time, but not the grim reaper Pluto/Hades was the ruler of the kingdom of the dead..... there are lesser gods like Minos who assisted with those crossing over. Pluto was also the god of wealth, for the rich mierals that are within the depths of the earth....might he be a Capi? or a virgo? harvesting the treasures of the earth. This is a great topic.....I will have to finish reading the thread.... Rolls Royce? Capi?....nah.....that's a Taurus....a capi is gonna trade in the Rolls for the new Humm-what-evers.....that will drive straight up a cliff....

DeLani	03 Sep 2003
Hi again, Continuing with the discussion: Thirteen, I have to respectfully disagree with you (and tradition! how un-Cappy!) about the Hierophant/Devil. While some meanings may say the Hierophant is about mercy, I don't think that at all. In fact, in my studies and also my personal take on the card, he is very similar to the Devil. They are like mirror images to each other - outside, seemingly total opposites, but down deep, strikingly similar. They are *both* about power, control, etc., but whereas the Devil chains us to the material plane, the Hierophant uses the invisible chains of guilt, conformity, and institutional power to chain us to the idea of the spiritual realm, to the detriment of the material. They are like ends on a spectrum - neither one by itself is good for us, without a little of the other to balance it out. That might be a little off topic. But I just didn't agree with equating the Hierophant with Gandhi or Mother Teresa. The hierophant cares more that you attend church, obey the rules, and pay your tithe. He lets his followers or underlings take care of the messy business of tending to people's bothersome *physical* needs. As you can tell, I don't even like the Hierophant card that much, so it's not an ego thing that I want it to be associated with Capricorn. I'm just looking at it objectively, and not trying to be biased by the GD system or my own desire for ego-gratification. If I could be any card I wanted, I'd be the World or the High Priestess! But I appreciate the traditional correspondences, and they are certainly not without merit. I'm just being a bit of *the devil's advocate!* :)

isthmus nekoi	04 Sep 2003
I find there is a definite link b/w Hierophant and Devil emphasized in Vertigo. The interesting thing is, they are the only 2 cards that have no astrological association (unlike the GD system, Vertigo does not include the elements). I believe if you place the majors in a spread the shape of the leminiscate, 5 and 15 link up. V's Hierophant is the Prince of Dreams. He is represented by the Sandman/Dream from Gaiman's popular comic series. He is a brooding fellow w/a very very deep sense of responsibility, and doing things the 'right way'. So he almost *never* smiles :P He doesn't really understand or empathize w/women. So he would suck (imo) except for the fact that he is the master of all narratives, and controls all stories and dreams. V's Devil is the Prince of Darkness. He is the charismatic demon himself, the lightbringer. He too, was once chained to the responsibility of caretaking a psychic realm (Hell). Like Dream, Satan feels the burden of his responsibilities greatly, however unlike Dream, he breaks free from his role, and one day decides to vacate Hell. The demons return to earth, Satan himself goes off suntanning in Australia. He leaves the key of Hell to Dream, and lets the Dream king deal w/the consequences.... Sandman and Satan make very interesting adversaries in Gaiman's comic which draws interesting parallels and contrasts b/w them.......

Dark_angel	04 Sep 2003
This may get me flamed (a common occurrence on other boards), and i'm sorry if i offend anybody. I'm new to tarot and I don't understand the importance of the links to astrology. I've never understood astrology though - surely as the aeons pass, the stars and planets that are used in astrology move, so someone who's a Capricorn now would have been, say, a Libran 500 million years ago. Please could someone explain; it might help my reading if I understood the connections? xxx

isthmus nekoi	04 Sep 2003
Oh goodness, I can't see that there's anything offensive about your post at all! I'm not exactly sure what you're asking though. Are you asking how astrology works? HUGE question! Certainly you can read tarot just fine w/o any knowledge of astrology. However, learning astrology can act as an aid to deepen your understanding of the meanings of the cards. I take into account when reading: - initial impressions, tarot/image based meaning ONLY - astrological association ONLY - synthesis of the two A lot to juggle in your head lol. I place the most weight on the image of the card though. p.s. If you are interested in learning astrology, we have a study group going over at the astrology forum here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=12481

Macavity	04 Sep 2003
Dark_Angel. Well, there's certainly precession (which clearly ancient cultures knew about) where the whole kaboodle rotates in a retrograde fashion round a complete cycle every 26,000 years? A small, but quite significant change - corresponding to one zodiac sign shift every 2160 years. Indeed, well within the "modern" historical record. No flames... seems an interesting point to ponder? Though much more general than simply applicable to this thread. What happens e.g. if one reads for historical figures? I suspect those astrologers DO have an answer tho' :P Macavity

Dark_angel	04 Sep 2003
Thanks for the advice; I'll check out the astrology forums! xxx

Thirteen	04 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani outside, seemingly total opposites, but down deep, strikingly similar. They are *both* about power, control, etc., but whereas the Devil chains us to the material plane, the Hierophant uses the invisible chains of guilt, conformity, and institutional power to chain us to the idea of the spiritual realm, to the detriment of the material. They are like ends on a spectrum - neither one by itself is good for us, without a little of the other to balance it out. That might be a little off topic. But I just didn't agree with equating the Hierophant with Gandhi or Mother Teresa. The hierophant cares more that you attend church, obey the rules, and pay your tithe. He lets his followers or underlings take care of the messy business of tending to people's bothersome *physical* needs. Yes to all the above! The Hierophant can certainly be like that--and a lot of those traits are very like Capricorn/the Devil. But that's BECAUSE Taurus and Capricorn are both Earth signs with similar traits of conservativism, of focusing on rules, of trying to be respectable and liking material goods. You yourself said, however, that you thought the Devil was being "short changed" by all the negative. You're doing the same with the Hierophant if you think that this is all he is. He doesn't HAVE to be the Bishop on his throne, droning on about following church rules, wearing velvet while parishioners starve, insisting on tithes, etc. He can be. Absolutely. And this, again, suits Taurus to a "tee." Taurians can be bull-headed, stubborn, conservative, and refuse to get out of their nice comfortable chair (no mountain climbing for them! They sit and sit and sit!). They can enjoy their comforts, want their cathedrals, and not tend to people at all. But like the Devil--and Capricorns--there're the "Light side of the force" as well. And it is THIS side which distinguishes it as TAURUS rather than Capricorn. This is the side where Taurus (and the Hierophant) is compassionate, taken with the beauty of the world. Where they are more like St. Francis than Pope De Medici. Did you ever see the movie "Brother Sun, Sister Moon"? There's your good Taurian Hierophant, St. Francis who loves the world, who identifies NATURE (gardening, the world, the beauty) with God. His aim is to convey to others that God is in the beauty of the world--thus, make the material spiritual. And he has an abundance of Taurian compassion. When one of his followers says, "I can't live without a woman!" He responds, "by all means, find a woman. We each serve God in our own way. Just be sure to marry her!" In other words, worldly comforts do not need to be rejected in order to worship God--just enjoy the comforts within the "rules" of the church. That's very much the message the good Hierophant teaches. The world is beautiful. God made man and woman. Enjoy the world, enjoy each other. Just do so within the rules! So, enjoy food, but don't be a glutton. Enjoy sex, but be married and don't give into lust. Enjoy your home, but be modest. Enjoy the things you have but be charitable. On the other side of this movie is the Pope and his well-fed cardinals in all their spendor. The huge cathedrals, the conservative rules, the silk and velvet robes. That's the "dark" side of the Hierophant with, as you point out, his tithes, underlings, obscene wealth and unforgiving rule book. But just because the "bad" side seems very Capricorn is no reason to ignore that it's also very Taurus. Or that the good side is very, very Taurus--and not Capricorn at all.

jmd	04 Sep 2003
Regarding the Precession of the Equinox and astrological correspondences, Dark Angel may also interested in checking this thread. The precession of the equinox, in any case, probably doesn't affect how one connects the cards to a particular sign. If one connects Mars to the Chariot, or Cancer to the Moon (each of which are also common correlations, by the way), then whether or not a region of the ecliptic is deemed to be Cancer is unlikely to affect reflections on the card. The Tropical zodiac, in any case, is as useful and 'true' as it ever was - despite the misunderstandings of some astronomers with regards to astrology... a topic best continued in the Astrology Forum, I suppose :).

The new planetary/astrological correspondences for the majors thread was originally posted on 30 Aug 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.