when death is really death ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

paulo32	05 Aug 2003
hello "When the Death card appears, big changes are heading your way. Usually this change refers to something in your lifestyle" So when the death card is really a card who anouce death ? bye paulo

Shoshin	05 Aug 2003
I guess you could say always. It just doesn't tell you when. ;)

paulo32	05 Aug 2003
Cool answer Shoshin

Trogon	05 Aug 2003
I would have to agree with Soshin... "you could say always. It just doesn't tell you when." I would also add a "never"... ;) I think it would depend some on you as well... Are you going to have it in your subconscious that XIII - Death can mean physical death under certain circumstances? If so, you may find the card coming up at some point where it meets those circumstances. My personal take on this card has always been the metaphorical death / change type of thing which seems to be prevalent with most Tarotists. To me the Tarot is about life, not so much death. However, having said that... unpleasant things happen in life sometimes - physical injury, illnesses, even physical death. Just because these things are unpleasant, I don't feel that I should ignore their possibilities in a Tarot reading. To me the cards which can most strongly signify these things would be the 10 of Swords, 9 of Swords... There are others of course, but as Diana mentions, when you're doing a Tarot reading - the way you interpret the cards depends on the context - what other cards are with the card showing a possible unpleasantness? What is the context of the entire reading (what is the person's question)? So... after all of that... I still come back to "always and never" for XIII Death indicating physical death. While I don't think of this card in that manner, it is not out of the realm of possibility - depending on the context. I hope my verbal meanderings were of some help...

Thirteen	05 Aug 2003
I'm with Soshin and Trogon, but I'm going to take your question seriously and literally for a moment. First, I'll tell you that NEVER, in something like 15 years of readings, have I ever predicted the Death of a querent from the Death card--though I have seen the passing of old, sick relatives of a querent. Nor have I ever seen the Death card in a reading, and then, later, learned that the person I read for died. It's never, ever happened. What I'm trying to caution you against is anxiously pouring over the cards looking for "real death" clues every time you pull the Death card. Puts a bit of damper on the reading don't you think? Especially since the Death card is commonly indicative of transformation and new beginnings--and shouldn't be given any more weight than any other Major Arcana card. Keep searching for "death" in it and you'll miss the real meaning of what the spread is trying to tell you. Conclusion: Death is a natural part of life, and as Soshin pointed out, always with us. And there may be times when you see, in the Death card, the passing of someone who is terminally ill or very old. But take care that this perhaps badly misnamed card doesn't blind you to it's more important meaning of TRANSFORMATION. That's what it's message is really all about, not just endings but new beginnings.

catti	05 Aug 2003
i recently had a spread where death was in fact death. I didnt understand that at first , applying the standard "natural change/ metaphorical death" interpretation to the card, but no it was a death card as two people are dead. that said , i think all of the cards can be interpreted literally at times. knowing when and why is what makes you a "true" tarot reader.[ and i say that knowing i dont always know when or why ;-)] otherwise anyone could pick up cards and cut the deck and come up with meaning.. it works with the other cards as well. The lovers [6] for instance, in a career choice reading likely means a choice , but in a relationship reading can mean lovers. it is like when you translate from one language to another, say portuguese to english, sometimes you can translate literally other time it just doesnt make sense so you have to find the other way to say it. Quote: First, I'll tell you that NEVER, in something like 15 years of readings, have I ever predicted Death from the Death card. Nor have I ever seen it in a reading, and then, later, learned that the person I read for died. in my spread the death card turned up in the environment, the reading was done by myself for myself and othere i learned that day that two people had died in the boating accident an it greatly affected the outcome. so i came to the conclusion that in this case death meant death...

Little Baron	05 Aug 2003
Silly question but it just popped in so I am going to pop it out - Does anybody ever read Death as a new life, as in pregnancy? I can imagine other cards that would sit around it but wondered if anyone had experienced this in their readings.

paulo32	05 Aug 2003
Nice answer Diana In fact i have find dead on somme spreads. I have saw the news on tv that somme one have murder on person. It was a past spread but the cart have the death on the meaning that we are talking. Ola catti yo espero que não tenha falecido alguem que conhecias no barco. Bonito poema também. Nice point of vieu Thirteen "And there may be times when you see, in the Death card, the passing of someone who is terminally ill or very old"

catti	05 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by paulo32 Ola catti yo espero que não tenha falecido alguem que conhecias no barco. Bonito poema também. hola paulo, lamentablemente mi portugues es bien mala entonces me voy a escribir en espanol. la poema es de un cancion de bachata de Leonardo Paniagua, si te gustas musica caribena , te lo recomiendo que bien conocerte aqui :-) catti

paulo32	05 Aug 2003
Catti Mui bien quien sabe um dia lo irei á Puerto rico. Tienho que ver isso no tarot,se será possivel. De qualquer forma so lo queres aqui fica o meu email para no hablarmos em espanhol aqui no forum e possas escrebir quando quiseres. E quien sabe talvez um dia ouvirei Leonardo Paniagua. silvaeaguiar@hotmail.com Adieus paulo

Macavity	05 Aug 2003
I think, in the times when Tarot first appeared, Death was a very familiar concept to most people, through early exposure... infant mortality, short lifespan, the "black death" etc. And, death was... pretty much death? Death also became associated with rather moralistic teachings - We are "all equal in death" became a common graveyard theme with a plethora of quite macabre boney images - Something e.g. the RWS deck itself underlines. I suspect once the cards started to be used for divination purposes, readers were faced with something of a dilemma. Would one want to predict the death of the querent on a single card... once every 78 throws or so? }) Some folk suggest it does mean (literal) death if supported by other cards, thereby lengthening the odds somewhat. Some then skirt the issue and discard the reading, if it becomes "too terrible"? Perhaps not completely satisfactory but... Perhaps it's easier to think about alegories for change? I'd tend to go with that! ;) Macavity

Thirteen	05 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 Does anybody ever read Death as a new life, as in pregnancy? No. Forgive me, I said it wrong. Death can't indicate a pregnanacy because is isn't about a New Beginning so much as the potential for a new beginning. The change that's happening with the Death card is that something is coming to an end, a close, a finish--but this ending promises to lead to a new start. It's rather like tossing out an old wardrobe--you get rid of that tatty old robe you loved so much, the broken shoes that you traveled round the world in, the scarf you never liked but kept because someone dear gave it to you. It's hard, but it's time to clear out the closet. You feel low, you feel sad, absolutely. But you're also making room for new things, new experiences, memories, possiblities. Like Winter, there is the promise of Spring. And the stipping down, the fallowness of the fields, allows for this to happen. This is the Death card. It can be the death of a relationship, the death of a friendship, death of a career, business or dream. But after you've grieved for it and let go of it, you'll feel lighter, maybe even better. A new beginning, maybe even a better beginning, is just around the corner. Quote: Originally posted by Macavity I think, in the times when Tarot first appeared, Death was a very familiar concept to most people, through early exposure... infant mortality, short lifespan, the "black death" etc. And, death was... pretty much death? Excellent point. Though I suspect even back then fortune tellers didn't tell paying customers that they were "doomed to die," but rather that Death was "close to them." Which is another thing we need to consider when the Death card shows up. Not if the person we're reading for is going to die, but if they're going to come close to Death. Either someone they know dying, or putting themselves in danger of dying. I'd worry, for example, if the person I was reading for seemed sucidially depressed or told me they were about to do something phenominally dangerous and stupid--like parachuting off a bridge or drag racing around blind curves at night. I think under those circumstances I might start looking for deadly clues in the cards, especially near future. A reversed chariot (car crash?), reversed Wheel-of-Fortune (really bad luck?), Judgement, 10/Swords, or Hanged Man. These might make me urge them to think twice, be careful, or get help! Because, after all, just because Death is near doen't make it a certainty. If we see it in the cards, we might help folk to avoid it. And this day and age, Death can happen and still not be certain. People stop breathing, their hearts stop beating, and someone with CPR brings them back to life. People "die" for several minutes and come back to tell the tale.

RainbowFire	05 Aug 2003
hmm. the death card CAN mean death, I think, although it's usually the death of... a habit/relationship/way of life etc. But why assume that it's the querent's death? it could be the death of someone close to them, or someone they don't like. ignore me, though, I've only really been studying the Tarot a week or so. In answer to Death ever meaning pregnancy... what if it comes up in a reading with the Empress card?

catti	05 Aug 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Thirteen [b] Excellent point. Though I suspect even back then fortune tellers didn't tell paying customers that they were "doomed to die," but rather that Death was "close to them." Which is another thing we need to consider when the Death card shows up. Not if the person we're reading for is going to die, but if they're going to come close to Death. Either someone they know dying, or putting themselves in danger of dying. [b][quote] that is very good way to word this, for me a "bad" reading is never necessarily "bad" , i tell people because it warns you ahead of time. It shows you what you should be looking out for , when for what ever reasons you are maybe blind to your dangers. Quote: in my case, the 3 of swords (rx) , 10 of pent. (rx) and fool (rx) were the surrounding cards , the 6 of swords and chariot popped out of the deck. Which spoke to me specifically of the journey by water. this situacion was very close to me and has made me melancholy, in some ways it speaks of the trueness of tarot and that i read "well" but i would have rather had the sun and 4 of wands and empress and see a happy pregnancy , for example.

The when death is really death ? thread was originally posted on 05 Aug 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.