Court Cards and Astrology?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	06 Sep 2003
OH NO!, you cry? But, since we've considered Majors and (remaining) Minors... Why not? ;) In the simplified Golden Dawn scheme (P.Christian? 1811-77) we have: Code:            Wands   Cups   Swords   Disks   Astro Knight     Sag     Pis    Gem      Vir     Mutable  Queen      Ari     Can    Lib      Cap     Cardinal Prince     Leo     Sco    Aqu      Tau     Fixed Princess   Fire    Water  Earth    Air    These asignments (believed correct!) originate (presumably) with the association of element with sign type (mutable, cardinal, fixed). E.g. King of Wands (Fire of Fire) is a confirmed Sagittarian, the Prince of Disks (Air of Earth) is a Taurian etc. But, is this indeed standard or at least consistent with modern astrological thinking? I note to my (slight!) horror that the (Norbert Losche) Cosmic tarot uses another system (A.Oken 1980) that effectively (at least) swaps the top two rows around! Also: Kings (Air!) are Cardinal, Queens (Water) are Mutable and Princes (Fire!) are Fixed. (The court ordering high to low is king, queen, prince, princess) Confusing, Eh What? }) In essence: Is the "Head Honcho" of Wands a Sagittarian (GD) or an Aries (Oken)? :D Macavity P.S. I realise we are getting to a concensus(?) that astrology is useful at the individual's disgression, but sense it might be more interesting for the courts who, even as archetypes, are closest to being "people"? Any preferences?

Minderwiz	06 Sep 2003
Well I've seen several attempts at Court cards/sign associations - A. T. Mann cites one in which Kings are Fixed, Queens Cardinal, Knights Mutable - which would make The King of Wands analagous to Leo. Assignment is systematic - so the main decision is how you see the roles (King, Queen, Knight, Page). Do Kings represent the stable and sustained, or are the initiatory, or are they changeable, adaptable and ambiguous?

Thirteen	06 Sep 2003
The association I'm familiar with puts Queens as Fixed (they hold down the Kingdom, keep it working) with Kings as Cardinal (they motivate, are the first spark, etc.).

Apoc	06 Sep 2003
Well, sheesh. I was on the verge of just giving up and making up my own d@mn system for the stupid court cards. Finally, someone has found a comprehensible system for those evil, evil cards! :P

Macavity	07 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Assignment is systematic - so the main decision is how you see the roles (King, Queen, Knight, Page). Do Kings represent the stable and sustained, or are the initiatory, or are they changeable, adaptable and ambiguous? Good points, Minderwiz (and all) - Indeed systematic :) Yeah... It's perhaps interesting to note e.g. that Crowley (however "right") did adopt a rather counter-intuitive ordering of his court ranks ("unstable" Knight at the top etc.) Most of my Thoth-clones (Barrett AE, Cosmic etc.) realign this with the more conventional "kings on top" idea. So, indeed, it may be appropriate to engage in a bit of judicious row-swapping. One might have imagined the Queens would have "stayed out of this", but Hey, why not shuffle them completely! :P Still, there DOES seem to be a certain method in all this... I will probably use the Crowley assignments for the Thoth and indeed "difference" these for the Clones - Especially when, as on the Cosmic Tarot, these are actually marked on the cards... ;) Macavity P.S. Apoc (and anyone else) - You might like the (oft cited!) link: http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/387 which discusses the various possibilites for the courts in some detail...

The Court Cards and Astrology? thread was originally posted on 06 Sep 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.