Tarot, Symbols and Personal Meaning

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	21 Sep 2003
Tarot, symbols and personal meaning Last week there was a joke in one of the threads which was a little unkind in it s judgment of the Rider Waite Smith version of the High Priestess. The implication was that there was something a little tatty about this High Priestess, perhaps something a little cheap as compared with her predecessor the Popesse.. Tonight in Sally Nicholl’s Jung and Tarot I read “Waite’s 20th century priestess is both perfect and beautiful and to the manner born – but something is missing. In contrast to the Popess with her comfortable body and her wise old eyes, this young woman seems to be untouched and pure – too good to be true.” So obviously there are different opinions! One of the things that is so profound about the Tarot is its symbolism. Symbols explain things visually that often cannot be articulated because they often originate from very deep levels of awareness and feeling. Last week’s flippant comment about the RWS High Priestess touched me deeply because the image of HP is sacred to me. Empress, Temptation, Star and Strength do as well but not nearly so deeply as the High Priestess The High Priestess imagery and ascribed characteristics go right back to the Gods, and probably long before this. She is profound female wisdom, intelligence and love. No other card affects me quite so much. Another is the Hermit – so isolated, so deep. I know that HP is more commonly partnered with the Magician and is a long way from Hermit but still I put them together. These meanings often affect people very deeply when, surprisingly, they say they have never encountered Tarot before. My Mother was a convert to Catholicism but Jesus per se didn’t really have the same impact as Mary whom she adored. Mum was a small and delicate woman who loved both art and science and she lived in that house with her own personal altar to Mary. Are there cards which affect you really deeply? You just know there is something deeply significant about them, and it is to do with personal meaning.

Diana	21 Sep 2003
All the cards affect me deeply. I'm talking here of the Major Arcana..... Because each one represents to me a step in my journey.... From the Bateleur, to the Papess (who is both High Priestess and Cocktail Waitress.... :) ) (catboxer's post that you refer to, Moongold, touched me too, because of the wonderful humour that catboxer graces us with when he is in the mood!), to the Empress.... all the way to the World. The Fool is probably the one who touches me the most, because I know that that is where I long to be..... and where maybe, with a bit of luck and some hard work, along with trials and sorrow, I may end up, after a few more hundred lives. 22 cards that move my heart daily. And which are the best teachers I've ever found.

Major Tom	21 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana 22 cards that move my heart daily. And which are the best teachers I've ever found. :sigh: Indeed. She's a slut really. ;)

Maan	21 Sep 2003
can't the higpriestesss not be a slut and a virgin at the same time. I think the word virgin got misunderstood over the length of time. I think it use to mean that a woman was independend, that she did not need a man to take care of her. Maybe thats her big secret. She enjoy's man but she does not need man to take care of her. Maybe thats why her meanings seems so secretly. People who stand in the centre of their own power are always a little hard to follow for us. And a woman that does not need a man is very threatening for some man...and in the past it must have been even more scary for man to realize that woman could be on there own. Just look at the witch hunting day's in the dark ages. Love Maan

Umbrae	21 Sep 2003
The round-heeled naked babe carrying a tray of drinks over to our table guards the true secrets of the universe… If you have not seen the movie ‘Erin Brockovich’, go rent it ASAP and then return for the rest of the discussion. Symbols…hmmm. There are two aspects of Tarot, which are not always in agreement. One aspect are the meanings ascribed to each card in divination. I strongly object to static ascribed meanings. Life does not work that way. And to state “She’s a Whatever!” is to rob divination of its divine nature, and replace it with our limited human mental capability. The other aspect of Tarot, are the implied lessons when used as a teaching board for meditation, and personal growth. These lessons are implied – and as such differ widely from the ‘divinatory meanings’ ascribed by experts. We begin the Major Arcana with the Bateleur (if you have a Magician, get a real deck, and not some pompous post 1909 knock-off). The Bateleur is the masculine aspect of existence. People say, “I can’t understand The Magician.” I respond by shouting, “YES!!! THAT’S FREAKING IT!!!” That is what the Bateleur is all about. And if you can’t understand it…then you understand it!!! The Bateleur/Magician is about drawing lines, creating the appearance of order out of chaos. He is the sorter, the measurer, the qualifier, and quantifier. The one who pigeonholes things, draws lines and territories, defines boundaries where none were meant to be. Everything must be ‘just so’. Our magician attempts to define magic – to define the divine, and loses much in the process. You can order and figure out all you want…chaos remains. We must understand to the core of our being, that order will not stop disorder. ‘Figuring out’ does nothing. We must accept that chaos has its place. The Bateleur/Magician has no answers – it’s a show, a scam…and he’s selling tickets… The Popess, or the High Priestess, represents far more than the feminin side of existance. She is about non-ego existence. She is about the right-brain as opposed to the left. She is about the heart as opposed to the ‘intellect’. She is a rule breaker in the standard ego-driven patriarchal society, and that is the point...there are those who use sex, or more appropriately, sexuality as a manipulative tool. This is the one card that exudes sex...on one hand, it represents the 4th face of a woman, the dark side; on the other it is about disgrace, manipulation, the knowledge of people. She may or may not be a virgin. Perceptions create illusions…many women who carry the label, in fact, are not…and when you judge; you have bought into the illusion…just as you bought the snake oil from the Bateleur, the Magician…you believed the sales pitch. When you say ‘slut’, you are stuck in the realm of the Magician – you don’t get it. Don’t take one issue out of context here…Sex, or sexuality, and the appearance of sex, is only one aspect. Rule breaker is by far the more important facet. Especially true in the patriarchal society of Medieval Italy. In a medieval, patriarchal world, any moving of boundaries by a woman would be considered ‘uppity’…look at the movement to give women the vote in this country? Hell, look at how Ayn Rand is still 'judged'. Remember the movie about Erin Brockovich? She is the perfect modern day example of what I’m talking about. Remember how she was viewed by her co-workers? How did she dress…how was she perceived? But what was she really? Was she really the slut that she was perceived as? Her illusion, allowed her access to information and people that others had no access to… She used her sexuality, not sex, and people’s misconceptions about her to further a cause for good. People underestimated her based upon their perception of the illusion. That is…the High Priestess/Popess. And both sex and sexuality…come from the heart – from love…unless you want to cheapen it by classifying and selling tickets. The Bateleur and La Papesse by the way have nothing to do with Men and Women – they have to do with Masculine – Feminine; Ego – Spirit; College Graduate – Explorer of Life; living from the heart or the mind. As you read this essay…and found all the examples of passive sentences…you were living in the realm of the Bateleur…wanna put a label on me for even posting this? Guess what... ...And as long as you live in the realm of the Bateleur, you will never experience personal growth – you will be too busy justifying how good and righteous you are…let go – be the cocktail waitress…

firemaiden	21 Sep 2003
I am remembered of a discussion we had many months ago on th RWS High Priestess in which I (with a mind permanently in the gutter) wondered about the suggested meaning of the veil stretched between two pillars and the salty sea beyond... We also discussed the pomegranate as the symbol of sexual union (it is the fruit which binds Persephone to Hades). There is much more to explore indeed of sexual significance, if you wish to go that route, "initiation" as "rending of the veil". The Priestess, as "initiator"...if you think on sexual union as a sacred act and means of reaching the divine, there are indeed here more depths to be plumbed.

Dexter	23 Sep 2003
I'm new here and after reading a few of these posts am feeling a little out of my depth. I personlly feel that the High Priestess is alittle aloof and cool. I get the feeling that when she shows up in a reading that she is kind of looking down her nose at me. I guess I feel a little stupid that I have yet to grasp the knowledge that she possesses. I almost feel like she is daring me to through aside the veil and look deeper. It's like she dosesn't think that I have the nerve to search farther, that I want her to just hand everything over to me to make life a little easier. She makes me want to say I'll show you that I can do this and that I have the ability and the need to learn the secrets you hold. Anyway thats my feeling, and that could be my problem. I tend to read by the feelings I get from the cards. Books can be helpful but sometimes its just the way I feel.

nexyjo	23 Sep 2003
i've found that there are many more aspects of the tarot than two, and that they all neither agree nor disagree. with aspects, being parts of the whole, the concept of "agreement" doesn't relate. one can dissect a thing, and study it, but i've found that in many cases, a thing is greater than the sum of it's parts. the connectiveness between the parts is often overlooked, and these parts operate in the context of the whole. the inability to see the forest for the trees comes to mind. i've also found that the "validity" of a deck has little relationship with the time of its creation. it could be argued that older decks have lost their validity, since the context in which they were created - the culture that spawn them - no longer exists. we can imagine what that culture might have been, through the artifacts that were left behind, but we cannot live it. in this sense, while an older deck may incite a connection, that connection is in the context of our own culture, which may or may not be valid. certainly, the essence of that validity will be different than the essence experienced during the period in which the deck was created. perhaps neither better nor worse, but different. as always, your own milage may vary...

Umbrae	26 Sep 2003
Let’s get back to discussing the High Priestess… We *don't* talk about the 4th face of the High Priestess ... we don't know how. To acknowledge it at all is to call it into being, within us and within others. To recognize it exists means having to deal with it's existence as well. So, sure, why not shut the pie-hole, it's everyone's coping mechanism. It's the puritanical impulse still at work. And, the same impulse evidenced on the thread. What do you say when a Seditious One pulls back the veil and says, "Hey guys! Take a look at this aspect of humanity!" Embarrassed silence ensues. It's like talking about masturbation. Who's willing to subject themselves to talking about and recognizing the sides of sexuality we pretend don't exist? Social mores have put the fish netted High Priestess in the closet. But that doesn't mean that's where she belongs. There is a difficulty when dealing with such subjects. People don't want to go out on that limb. Its scary. It feels "not safe" to them. The new moon is after all the time of darkness, and primal fear of darkness still creeps back in. There are many kinds of darkness, aren’t there? So…yes, it’s scary. Sexuality and the High Priestess' brand of wisdom are a potent mix, as we know. It scares people silly, clams them up tight. Kali knows that ... that's why she usually looks so *scary* in her depictions. But, this too is a mask. Kali has nothing to fear, she is the devourer of fear, as well as desire. She teaches you to go through each emotion, rather than objectify it and try to put it away. Feel it completely. That's SCARY. It is vulnerability. And some folks never will see past the mask, never accept the 4th face, never feel anything fully. They see only Kali = scary. Not Kali = freedom. I know, I’m stirring the pot and looking into places a lot of people just don’t want to look. I understand most will go, “Eeuuuu” and run and hide. You see, the symbolism if the Tarot was established before the Victorian, puritanical era – and yes sex was viewed quite differently then. Waite – Coleman Smith was 1909 – she moved from being La Papesse to The High Priestess without explanation. Did the symbol change? Did our perception of the symbol change? Or did the language of our perception change. There is a profound feminine wisdom here – and love, strength and intelligence. There is also sexuality. A High Priestess may indeed be a round heeled babe in high-heeled shoes and fishnet stockings…under her robe. Or she may be wearing only a flimsy alibi…

firemaiden	26 Sep 2003
Oh great seditious one, this is great stuff. I'd like to hear a bit more about who Kali is. :)

Dark Inquisitor	27 Sep 2003
I think there are some elements in this thread that are not conforming to forum rules and netiquette .

Moongold	28 Sep 2003
When I initiated this thread I was thinking more if the ‘status’ that is given to various things. My mother appreciated the beauty of the various representations of Mary but a simple picture of Mary as a peasant woman meant more to her because it was closer to her reality. The Rider Waite Smith tarot may not have as much aesthetic and historical distinction as the various versions of the Marseilles but it still a most popular deck, beloved of many. I would like to spend some hours looking at the really historic decks in order to understand them better - Tarot of the Master is one discussed on these boards of late, and it is quite beautiful. The point I was originally making, quite obscurely by the look of it, was that I didn’t like to see the more popular decks disparaged by comments about the High Priestess as cocktail waitress, almost as though the RWS and some of its classic images are a little like comic book art. Hmmmmm... I was VERY serious that day :). I’ve just come from a meditation on three cards on the ToTOP, Luminance (Moon), Star, and High Priestess, and all three images resonate with sexuality. You can’t think about any of the “female’ cards in the Tarot without thinking about sexuality. Working in the field that I do I’ve known some remarkable women who certainly have HP type qualities but wouldn’t be used as sitters for paintings of the Virgin Mary. Ah…the mystery of the High Priestess.

Diana	28 Sep 2003
Perhaps precisely because the Rider Waite is such a "popular" deck, it should be looked at with an even more critical eye - of course by critical, I don't mean Negative Criticism only... . Positive Criticism is also very useful. Popular often means taken for granted. Popular stuff is hardly ever "questioned".... it becomes so standard that one doesn't bother to question established views on the deck, or the newspaper, or the book .... or the High Priestess.... or whatever. The lady who lives across the road me is a kind of a cocktail waitress (possibly a little bit more daring than that even ;) ). I like her an awful lot - she's genuine and sparkling.

Moongold	28 Sep 2003
I agree, Diana. Y'know........I didn't even like the RWS to start with. I learned on the Morgan Greer because I disliked the RWS so much. It was after reading about Pixie Colman Smith and learning a little more about her and the history of that deck that I took an interest in it. There is much more symbolism there than in Morgan Greer. It's never ending, this study of Tarot. I left another post this evening determined to buy a copy of Tarot of the Master (which has an Italian name). Too many decks, too little time :)

The Tarot, Symbols and Personal Meaning thread was originally posted on 21 Sep 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.