Coincidence? And Charlatans.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

stenoboy	19 Oct 2003
My partner and I have a daily thing where one of us draw a tarot card and we have that as the theme for the day, discussing the card, its symbolism, meaning etc. However, today, when partner drew the card, it was the Three of Swords. We both looked at it, laughed, and put it back, knowing its meaning, having lived through rocky times. So we drew again, and, dah-dah, the Three of Swords again! What are we to make of this? I think, given we were not actually asking the cards to tell us anything, that perhaps it was a coincidence. However, perhaps the cards WERE telling us something? I don't know how to interpret this happening at all. Another question: they had an expose programme on the television the other night called "Psychics Revealed" where they got a magician to perform tricks that are, supposedly, in the realm only of psychics. Interestingly, he "read" tarot to unsuspecting volunteers and used what were called "Barnum Statements", phrases and sentences that can apply to anyone, but the querent thinks they apply only to themselves. For example, "The cards are telling me you are a person who has a lot to give but does not have the confidence to carry it through". "The cards are saying to take a more creative approach to life" etc etc. Has anyone ever heard of these statements? I realise, of course, the genuine seekers of truth and guidance from the cards, like those on Aeclectic, would not use such a device, or would see through it anyway, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience of it?

Umbrae	19 Oct 2003
Hmmmm I do believe it's one of my pet peeves...

stenoboy	19 Oct 2003
Umbrae, Hadn't seen that linked post before - absolutely brilliant! I've been to a few psychics who have come out with drivel like that, and I walked away feeling perplexed, 1) because it was sort of accurate, and 2) because it was sort of NOT accurate in that it didn't tell me anything new. But now I know. Thanks!

Astra	19 Oct 2003
Such absolutely beautiful bull****, Umbrae. I started wondering how I'd missed the thread and then realized it happened before I came in to Aeclectic. A good reason for browsing the archives, but... when am I gonna find the time? Got a few other threads of such stellar quality to recommend?

wavebreaker	20 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by stenoboy Has anyone ever heard of these statements? I realise, of course, the genuine seekers of truth and guidance from the cards, like those on Aeclectic, would not use such a device, or would see through it anyway, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience of it? I think this is what is sometimes called "cold reading". They are not really telling the querent anything, but they are really asking them questions, but they phrase them in a way that it seems as if they are telling them something. They start off with very general statements, such as "I see someone with dark hair", hoping that the querent will then say something like "Oh yes, that's my father!". This way, they are getting a lot of information from the querent, but making the querent believe that it was the psychic who got all the information. I've once seen a psychic do this on tv and it was amazing how many people fell for it. When the querents were interviewed afterwards, they were all very much impressed by what the psychic knew about them, not realising that they had provided this information themselves...

jmd	20 Oct 2003
One of the interesting aspects of those 'cold general readings', or statements which may apply to anyone, is that there are quite a variety of them. If is also possible that, despite the desire for 'trickery' on the part of the 'debunker', only those statements which are far more useful to the querent actually get spoken. For example, lack of confidence applies, in some situations or areas, to probably most of us. As does the need to at times become more creative. But these are more meaningful in specific situations which the querent would be familiar with. Maybe such 'readings' show not the debunking they seek to achieve, but that even those who do not accept that there may be more than mere physical materialism items are nonetheless guided in their interpretation by deeper forces. As for the three of Swords, I hope you took the time to discuss its symbolism, its possible meanings, and its various representations (not only its RWCS variant)... ...now to go and read Umbrae's link...

Thirteen	20 Oct 2003
Such Barnum statements, as jmd points out, can get said whether the psychic is a fake or not. They get said because it's hard to be specific with a stranger. For example, if I read for a stranger (let's say a woman) I don't know if she's single, married or divorsed (unless they tell me). Now I get to the "partnership" card. I see a Knight of Pentacles. If I said, "I see a dark-haired young man..." then I'm being very general and fishing for her to say, "My boyfriend!" If I say, "You like hard workers--" I'm moving into the territory Umbrae covered. One-size-fits-all statements. But what I'd likely say is: "You've a partner who's been working hard, but he's still new to the business and it's going to take a while before he has anything to show for that hard work." Now, on the one hand, that's still general and close to those Barnum statements. It certainly leaves open the door for her to say, "Oh, my husband!"and "he's a contractor...." filling in the blanks I left. So now the question is: Could I, as the psychic have said "your husband the contractor"? SHOULD I have said that in order to be considered a REAL psychic? Am I a trickster because I didn't even try to be that specific? Well, no, I read what I saw. I didn't get specific only because (1) I've got twelve cards to get through and laying down more to be specific would lengthen the time considerably, (2) It's her reading. The message is for her, and what it means is for her. That's the whole idea of the cards--they can alter their meaning for the person. Specifics for each card would mean that you could only read for one person, yes? Example: "The Kight of Pentacles means a six-foot, black-haired, 25 year old. He is a contractor just starting out in business, recently married and likes to read Raymond Chandler novels in bed while eating crackers..." I'm afraid my tarot decks don't come with those sorts of interpetations ;) They have to be, of necessity, one-size-adjusts-to-fit-all. See? As for your 3-swords, that's what you get for trying to shut your ears to whatever message the cards are trying to tell you. You saw that theme for the day and thought "heartbreak! Yuck! Been there!" and tried to ignore it. Did you ever consider that you and your friend might not have been the skewered heart but the swords? Perhaps that card wasn't trying to tell you about rocky times--rather it was trying to tell you to watch your words? Maybe you've been making truthful, but unkind jokes about someone's looks or abilities? They laugh, but inside, they're hurt by your words. Or perhaps you and your friend leave them out of the friendship? Like I said, one-size-adjusts to fit all. Consider all aspects, not just one.

catti	20 Oct 2003
sometimes it isnt the readers fault....this has probably happened to anyone who reads for other people....recently a man came to me..i want you to read my cards...okay.....so i ask what kind of question, love business money luck??? i will pick a deck and spread based on the question i explain. love; its my wife he says...he has been quiet so far... and i begin to shuffle....then the dam breaks...i can hardly get to cutting the cards....he quiets....we turn the cards and start.... lets see...well it seems to me that you are happy with the way things have been and would stay like that but she is looking for a new direction i begin.....again he starts explaining everything... telling me all sorts of things about her about him etc etc....he didnt come to have his cards read at all, he came to me because i listen , i say kind words and i wont tell anyone...i ended up doing two spreads with him ---- hope i see him again soon because after he left and i had some quiet time to think it came to me...he was chattering so much i forgot to tell him some of (imho) the more important aspects of his throw.... what do you do? i let them talk, that seems to be just as helpful as any cards, and i make them look at cards hoping that something will remain and be a marker or guide in a time of indecision.

lark	20 Oct 2003
catti LOL The same thing happened to me this weekend. I barely read two cards in a ten cards spread. He talked and talked and talked some more. This was a thirty minute reading and I tried at many points to take charge of the reading and get it back on track. But he was determined to tell me his life story. So I just sat back and enjoyed his company. The funny part of all this. After his reading he went to the lady in charge of the fair and told her it was the best reading he had ever had. I was in his eyes the best tarot reader in the whole world....And I had hardly said a thing.

augursWell	20 Oct 2003
Just read some of Umbrae's posted link... Now I just wan to know how to "scry the bubbles on a glass of ale…" :D

nina	22 Oct 2003
Hello, Stenoboy, I just started a thread yesterday about the three of swords. If it came back up at you when you tried to put it away I'd say it's worth really thinking about. As for the "Barnum statements", I always tell anyone I read for (and I'm in a different position than some here because there are a very select, carefully chosen few and I don't charge so I don't ever have to face people who are out to "debunk" me) that I can't do a reading without them contributing. It's not a parlor trick guessing game, the deck is a tool to insight and I know more about how to use this tool then they do, but we should definitely be interacting. A lot of time I'll just point to a particular card in the reading and tell them the positions meaning and the possible interpretations of that card. They usually feel they got a lot out of it, and I always feel I learned more about the cards. -nina

lark	22 Oct 2003
augursWell: I don't think we're allowed to scry ale bubbles untill after our 100th post. But you'll have to check with the moderator on that one.

The Coincidence? And Charlatans. thread was originally posted on 19 Oct 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.