decanates, in the tarot minors,

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HOLMES	01 Oct 2003
after doing a search in our own aeclectic tarot forums for seeing previous discussions of decanates and what they were, how they were associated, and what they meant when they were associated with the tarot minors, we were getting the old seven planets that were discovered before golden dawn time and as one person posted in the thread they were the 7 planets repeated, over an over through the 36 minors, (36 for the aces were considered the whole of the signs, and so they covered the whole part of the suit in the decanates) without a good diagram to show you what i mean it can be quite confusing, but as i looked at the decanates circle in my qabalistic tarot , i saw that the courts cards were one degree ( on the circle that is 10odegree) over from the section of the minors so ... what that meant was for example (brb getting my tarot books) the queen of wands covered march 11-april 10, but the first part of the queen of wands starts in the end of the ten of cups according to the decanates, and so forth with the queen fo cups starts in the ten of swords time period, queen of swords starts in the ten of pentacles time period, and the queen o pentacles starts in the ten of wands time period. it may be this way for the queens may be considered to be the cups ? and the key to where to go after you complete the previous suit? now by a simple movement of these court cards over by one degree, we get the queen of wands starting in the 2 of wands time period, queenof cups starting in the two of cups instead of the ten of swords period. and the kind of swords for examples will end in the ten of swords period instead of the 9 of swords timer period. is it desirable to upgrade the decanates to seperate the suit or to keep it in a continous circle like the circle of life. furthermore, while we know that the fire signs, are the wand, the air signs, are the swords, the earth signs, are the pentacles, the water signs, are the cups suit, we can advance that a bit into this concept. using the spring suit, the cups (in my defination for i associate earth with the fall time instead of vicer versa) the cups suits are divided 2-4into one water sign which is the cardinal sign cancer, 5to 7 into one water sign which is the fixed sign scorpio,,8 to 10 into one water sign which is the mutable sign pisces. so while one may think that the water suit would stand for spring, it is clear by the signs that are considered by water signs in astrology that the cups suits cover, jun21 to july 21, october 23 to november 22 febury 19 to march 20 so no longer according to decanates can we simply say summer is wands, winter is swords, spring is cups , fall is earth (at least according to the golden dawn decanates) at this time it is important to link some webpages to share where i am getting information from. http://www.hein-site.com/Decanates.htm this website says , that to further divide up the three signs in the decanates (and for our purposes our minor tarot suits 2 to 10) we would take the water signs for example of the cups , and go 2 of cups cancer/cancer 3 of cups cancer/scorpio 4 of cups cancer/piscies, 5 of cups scorpio/scorpio 6 of cups scorpio/cancer 7 of cups scorpio/pisces 8 of cups piscess/piscess 9 of cups piscess/cancer 10 of cups piscess/scorpio (and you would divide up the other suits accordingly) http://www.astronova.nu/../decanates1.html a website that is used to divide up the decanates into time periods and their time periods. the planets are the great old seven , and pluto is not given its own sign but shares it with mars usally to use the water suits and planetary rulers. 2 of cups is venus in cancer,(/cancer) if we use the previous system address up there 3 of cups is mercuary in cancer(/scorpio) 4 of cups moon in cancer(/pisces) 5 of cups mars in scorpio(/scorpio) 6 of cups sun in scorpio(/cancer) 7 of cups ,venus in scorpio(/pisces) 8 of cups ,saturn in pisces(/pisces) 9 of cups , jupiter in pisces(/cancer) 10 of cups , mars in pisces(/scorpio) you will notice that certain planets repeat, for in this case it is venus, mars, for the seven planets in the old system repeat 1-7, 1-7, not in the suit itself or it would be venus in the pisces sign instead of jupiter but it repeats across the decanates circle. now for this site, http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art5593.asp which makes it easier to see the division of planets, and notice the planet pluto is there in its own sign. ? but i can't no longer see the planets of repeats for there was two mercury two decantes apart. but if we upgrade the planets of the suits to be the regular standard of today sun moon mercuary venus, mars saturn uranus neptune pluto, and make aces the sun .. why that ? for me , the sun defines all the sun signs of the element by going through them, so the ace of cups we would have the sun in the element of water and every decanates goes 2 to 10, 2 to 10, 2 to 10, 2 to 10 for every quarter section of the 4 divisions of the zodiac, you will alwasy see for the fith of any sign, saturn, for the ten of any sign pluto for it makes it more organized, logical, and updated. especially once we move the three court card decanates over one degree so the queen of wands is the second to five of every suit, instead of the ten of the last suit and the 4 of any suit. (if someone can post a really good decanates diagram it would help)

HOLMES	01 Oct 2003
there is some who say we can put the tarot into a system, but i sincerly believe it is a system that keeps being added to, and upgraded as we evolve and learn more, this post above doesn't put the tarot into a nice and tiny box but much like the tarot constellations by mary k greery and my own constellations for the higher cards (they make their own constellations ) a system of understanding is simply to help us understand more, and should we stick rigidly to it it becomes rules, it does become a "box" but should we keep flexible (like in my celtic cross experiments i used the constellation/with my extentsion system for only one position hence showing myself that i can still read the tarot on its own merit but should i get stuck inuitively it gives a good basis for understanding and reawaking my self to get past the blockages of the mind for the flow of the universe to start again ) and use this to understand the tarot deeper. in the jungian tarot , robert wang had changed some minor meanings due to the new planets not upgraded by today standardss but added in where they were not in the old golden dawn system and in fixed signs for they didn't move and were the root of the sign to get to the root of the suit (at least how i saw it) as a result cards changed. and if we upgraded the current planet association and added in the sign system in the above post, we will change some cards meanings, but i believe in my heart it wouldn't be a complete change but more of a extension, deeper meaning applied to the tarot minors to shed new light in this age. *goes and waits for responses*

isthmus nekoi	02 Oct 2003
Hello HOLMES, Yes, I agree any system related to tarot shouldn't stick it in a box :) But also, that understanding astrological correspondences enriches tarot. You've raised a lot of points here, to comment on a few... The astrological degrees the courts rule sometimes are related to their elemental components. For example, Queen of Wands is the fire of water. So she is given the latter half of Pisces (water) and the first half of Aries (fire). However, not all courts fit this pattern..... As for relationships from courts to minors, I have not read about this before, but there are parallels. For example, 10 of pentacles is the equivalent of the princess of discs (and the universe). As for adding in the outer planets.... this is very tricky b/c we do not know as much about them as the inner seven. I would feel more comfortable looking at the numerological basis for the pips.... 8 represents adjustment, changes. Uranus fits here better than Neptune I think in that the changes would be abrupt, but w/o the sort of planning that comes w/8s. 9 is a peak, highly differentiated and material. It is sort of the final stage. Uranus is highly unstable and I can't reconcile its meaning w/the meanings for the number 9... 10 is fufillment, completion. Pluto is very complex and represents change, what is hidden, the underworld etc. I think these 2 could go together if you want to stress the inherent chaos w/i completion.

HOLMES	02 Oct 2003
for two whole days i been waiting for feedback yay :O) ok let us see, hmm according to the golden dawn decanates wheel , what we have is a mixature of courts cards association by qabalah and astrology. from the qabalistic tarot book by robert wang. "the kings, queens , and princes stand behind the decans, while the princess are said to link the signs." yet the decans according to the wheel (if i had a scanner i would post a pic of it ) the decanates used by the court cards are not the zodiac signs but one degree over , which makes the question asked why ? the water in fire for queen of fire is good, and i wonder perhaps if that was the basis for the beginning of the pattern if we stayed with the common system of starting at 0o aries, yet the golden dawn used the ancient system of starting at 0o leo and the pattern is established with the princes(knights) being started over one degree into the cupss (golden dawn considered the decanates to start with leo according to the qabalistic tarot and so the five of wands is where the patterns for the seven planets associations starts.) so the fourt of cups is where the pattern according to the ancient system applid to the decanates ends. four of cups is connected by the knight of wands to the five of wands (with the knight being one degree into the cups and two degrees into the wands ) what do you make of that ? As for relationships from courts to minors, I have not read about this before, but there are parallels. For example, 10 of pentacles is the equivalent of the princess of discs (and the universe). from which system does that equivalence come from ? it wasn't into i wrote this post i even thought of associating the court cards to the minors due to astrology decanates, for me they were alwasy the 2 king, 3 queens, 6, knights, 9 pages after i learned the qabalistic associations. yet it doesn't fit so neatly into the decanates systme due to the problem mentioned above with the queens and court cards overall, example if we went by basis of the aces being the pages, we should get the knights 2to 4, queens 5 to 7 and kings 8 to 10. that would get us , pages, knights, kings and kings, but it isn't that way even if we did it qabalisticaly it should go page , knights, queen, and king, ace to 10 we would get for example to use the cup of water suit, queen of cups, 10 of swords, 2 of cups, 3 of cups, knight of cups, 4 of swords, five of cups, 6 of cups, king of cups, , 7 of swords, 8 of cups, 9 of cups, perhaps the golden dawn people knew lots about the alechemical make up of a person , and we can not have emotions without mind, spirit without emotions, physical strenght without a strong mind, and a strong mind without a strong physical body ? as for the adding the outer planets to the minors cards of 8, 9 and 10 , i will have to get back to you if astrologicaly it makes sense (got to pull out my basic astrology books :O)) i only added it for it makes the most sense to me, given the make up of the decanates circle, and the minor cards applied to the circle. i did do some thinking previously on this a few months ago and i always thought that pluto makes a fine minor ten.

Moongold	03 Oct 2003
Holmes, Thanks for this thread I’ve never understood all this and the questions are beginning to make it a little clearer. There is a book called The Complete Book of Tarot Spreads by Burger and Fiebig which has a section on Tarot and Astrology at the back. Most of their material is based on the Golden Dawn material, I think but the Decanates are based on something called Hellenistic Astrology. The year is divided into 36 Ten day Segments, Each astrological sign contains three 10 day segments and each segment has a ten day ruler. So this is what you have for Spring 10 Day Cycle 21 March – 31 March Mars in Aries II - Wands 1 April =10 April Sun in Aries 3 - Wands 11 April – 20 April Venus in Aries 4 Wands 21 April – 30 April Mercury in Taurus 5 Pentacles 1 May – 10 May Moon in Taurus 6 Pentacles 11 May – 20 May Saturn in Taurus 7 Pentacles 21 May – 31 May Jupiter in Gemini 8 Swords 1 June – 10 June Mars in Gemini 9 Swords 11 June to 21 June Sun in Gemini 10 Swords So as said earlier, each astrological sign has three segments and each has a 10 day ruler and you can see this if you look at the above table. Each season begins with a sign. Spring begins with Wands, Summer with Cancer. Autumn with Swords and Winter with Pentacles. And the suits begin at 2. Aces are omitted from this system. Sorry if you know all this already, Holmes. It’s just that my memory isn’t that good and I won’t recall it when I come back here to look. This system includes the Major tarot card for the Sign and then attributes the Court card appropriately. It is done a little like this: SPRING First Month 21/3 – 20/4 Astrological sign: Aries Major card: Emperor Court card: Queen Wands. Numbered Cards: 2 – 4 Wands Reigning Planet card: Tower Card of elevated planet: Sun The people who designed all of these systems must have had good memories. I can’t for the life of me remember half of it. I sometimes wonder how much use if is except for smart people, Holmes, because it takes a bit of remembering. Regular use would make a difference. Holmes this is as much for me and other quizzical people as for you. It might prompt some more questions. Or perhaps you could explain it a little more. Many blessings

Moongold	03 Oct 2003
Holmes, I have a rectangular chart, not a circle. However, the MAJOR difference in this system is that the Courts are allocated to a Tarot Major as per the Thoth system. Another thought has just come to me. In conventional astrology the charts are quite organic as they have to be with so many millions of permutations possible. The Houses often intersect the signs and that has particular meaning too, as Isthmus would be able to tell you. In my own chart I have a number of signs intersected by different houses. Because of that it makes sense to attribute a Court card to a Sign. I agree with Isthmus that the new Planets - they tend to be way out there - have a lot more work to be done around them. There is some argument about the authenticity (there must be a better word) of their attributes because they are so new and the knowledge does not spring from the mythological connection with the Divine that the older planets have. Hope all this makes sense. I'm thinking as I go. Thanks heaps for this Holmes. By asking the questions you've helped me understand something a little better, even if it isn't your system. I may not have everything perfectly correct, as the purists will probably discover, but it's heading in the right direction I think. You are developing a new system that sounds quite original and very coherent but it would be good if you could draw it for us. It would be good to test it with an astrological chart - a genuine one. Moongold

isthmus nekoi	03 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES As for relationships from courts to minors, I have not read about this before, but there are parallels. For example, 10 of pentacles is the equivalent of the princess of discs (and the universe). from which system does that equivalence come from ? Not sure it comes from any system.... only that the beginnings and ends match up. 10 of discs is the 'end' of the pips, princess of discs is the end of the courts, and universe is the end of the majors. The beginnings I assume also match up: ace of wands, magician (or fool?) and the knight of wands. As for the new planets... yes, adding in the transSaturnian planets does make for a nice round 10. But they are odd ones. Remember Uranus shatters systems. I think its discoery heralded a revolution to the system of astrology.

Minderwiz	03 Oct 2003
I am quite familiar with the decanates but I must admit to almost zero knowledge of the GD's application, so I'll have to read and re-read some of the posts here before I can add much more. However for the non-Astrologers I can add a couple of points which might help. As I think we have established, the decanates are 10 degree sections of each sign - so with 30 degrees to a sign there are three decanates to each sign. The planetary rulership begins with Mars as the ruler of the first decanate of Aries - the rulership then continues in Chaldean order right through the 12 signs. The Chaldean order is based on the speed with which planets move around the Zodiac, the order being slowest to fastest, so its Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon (the seven visible planets). So if the sequence starts at the Spring Equinox with Mars, ruler of Aries, the remaining two decanates of Aries are ruled by the Sun and Venus in sequence. The first decanate of Taurus begins with Mercury, the second with the Moon and then the Chaldean sequence starts again with Saturn ruling the third decanate. This continues right through to the third decanate of Pisces, which is also ruled by Mars. So Mars is the only planet to rule two consecutive decanates (the last of Pisces and the first of Aries). These could be translated into dates - as shown above but this begs the question as to which planets is the prime timer. If we want to keep to the Seasons then the Sun is the obvious answer. However even with the Sun there are slight variations year to year in the dates and times in which it enters each sign. So the allocation according to Star Sign column dates needs to be treated with a little care. Perhaps some kind person would now fill me in on how the GD actually made use of these 36 decanates in order to map 78 Tarot Cards :)

HOLMES	03 Oct 2003
they didn't map out all 78 cards, just the 56, :O) for the 22 major arcana they assigned to the 22 paths of the qabalah, and for 36 cards out of 40 minor arcana they took out the ace calling it the base of the suit, or the elemental power which encompasses all of the astrological signs assigned to the element. so taking out of the aces leaves us with 36 cards, 2 to 10. the courts cards well they took out the pages to be in the same category as the aces for court cards and assigned 3 decanates to every court card 12 times 3, equals 36. but their court cards associations are one degree off of the signs (to the left) and why i just can not figure out having only the new golden dawn ritual tarot and the qabalisitic tarot to based my meager knowledge on.

HOLMES	05 Oct 2003
i recently acquired the tarot of cermonial magick by lon milo duqutte, and as i was wondering the last week why the court cards were associated the way they were, it is answered right there in that book and my eyes poped out of their sockets and i had to pick them up and put them back in again *joke eheh * the universe sends information to us in all forms i guess when we seek information eheh he says, 1. it is the nature of the element to combine with another element. elemental creation is by nature a churning process. 2. by adding in one ten degree of the previous sign in the their compositon, the court cards more accurately reflect the elemental fact of nature, 3. so keeping with the churning process, it is the queen not the knight who represents the cardinal aspect of each nature element.hence that is why the queens are the predominte cardinal natures. so by design it is true that QUOTE perhaps the golden dawn people knew lots about the alechemical make up of a person , and we can not have emotions without mind, spirit without emotions, physical strenght without a strong mind, and a strong mind without a strong physical body ? QUOTE or rather, can not have water without air or it would get stagant, air without water for we wouldn't be able to breathe it. earth without fire to give it life (sunlight ) air, without earth to hold its gravity wouldn't exist. and taking it account would it be safe to say that the queen of cups being water in water also has some air in it to help it flow. and when the queen of cups is reversed, the exteme water is in conflict with the air ? or the loving women living in a emotional world has to have some strenght of mind to make it ,, but if it is reversed the emotions can't deal with it strenght in order to react with the emotiions of the world around it due to the weakness of the mind. this elemental astrological nature applied to the court cards of king, queen, and knight shows us that we can not longer see ourselves as apart but of the whole. and using this system of king to rule some minors, and the queen to rule others, and knight as well, you can get a feel for what personal strenght or characterist you need to upright the card if you use reversals or to strenght the power of the card and overcome it to move forward.

HOLMES	07 Oct 2003
pages of wands. =aces of wands. queens of wands, = ten of cups , two of wands, three of wands, prince of wands= four of wands, five of wands, six of wands. king of wands, 7 of cups, eight of wands, nine of wands. page of cups , aces of cups queen of cups, ten of swords, two of cups , three of cups prince of cups , four of swords, five of cups , six of cups , king of cups, 7 of swords, eight of cups, 9 of cups, page of swords, ace of swords, queen o swords, ten of pentacles, two of swords, three of swords, prince of swords, four of pentacles, five of swords, six of swords, king of swords 7 of pentacles, eight of pentacles, nine of pentacles, page of pentacles, ace of pentacles, queen of pentacles, ten of wands, two of pentacles, three of pentacles, prince of pentacles. four of wands, five of pentacles, six of pentacles king of pentacles, 7 of wands,, eight of pentacles, nine of pentacles, ace of wands, page of wands, two of wands, queen of wands, three of wands, queen of wands, four of wands, prince of pentacles, five of wands, prince of wands, six of wnads, prince of wands, 7 of wands , king of pentacles. eight of wands, king of wand, nine of wands, king of wands, ten of wands, queen of pentacles, ace of cups , page of cups, two of cups queen of cups, three o cups queen of cups, four of wands, prince of wands five of wands, prince of cups six of wands, prince of cups seven of cups , king of wands, eight of cups king of cups nine of cups , king of cups ten of cups , queen of wands, ace of swords, page of swords, two of swords, queen of swords three of swords, queen of swords, four of swords, prince of cups five of swords, prince of swords, six of swords, prince of swords, seven of swords, king of cups, eight of swords, king of swords, nine of swords, king of swords, ten of swords, queen of cups. ace of pentacles, page of pentacles, two of pentacles, queen of pentacles three of pentacles, queen of pentacles, four of pentacles prince of swords, five of pentacles prince of pentacles, six of pentacles prince of pentacles, seven of pentacles, king of swords, eight of pentacles, king of pentacles, nine of pentacles king of pentacles, ten of pentacles, queen of swords. this didn't include the seven of old planets or astrological signs, from the decanates, just the court cards and what minor cards they rule. edited to add, (this is the gd system, and is valid far as i know for the toth, rider waite, and all tarot that follow the those systems, like the ancient egyptian tarot that follows the toth associations for minors )

HOLMES	08 Oct 2003
looking further at the decanates, one can notice there isn't no cups in the bottom left hand corner of the zodiac signs of aires, taurus, gemini, any swords in the bottome right hand corner cancer, leo, virgo any pentacles in the top hand corner, of libra, scorpio, saggituarius, or any wands in the signs of capricorn, aquarius, pisces. by looking at the minors . the only key is by looking at the court queens can you see that things are not totally seperate, for due to the queen of cups, there is one cup influence where there was none before at the bottom left hand corner queen of swords, swords influence at the bottome right hand corner where there was none before, queen of pentacles where there wasn't any before at the top right hand corner, and following the pattern the queen of wands is the only wands in the top right hand corner. strange as it is, to me to look at , the aces of wands, and pages of wands, are in the bottom right hand curve of the zodiac, the pages, and aces of cups in the top right hand curve, aces and pages of swords in the top left hand curve, and princes and ace of pentacles in the bottom left hand curve. it is the wand suit that has no connection to the swords, but by the queen of swords connecting it to the emotions , by completing the cycle of pentacles, and continuing it in the sword suit. and the pentacles suit that has no connection to cups, but by the queen of cups connecting to the spirit. by completing the cycle of mental energy and continuing it in the emotions. the swords suit that has no connection to the spirit but by the queen of wands connecting to the body, by completing the emotional cycle and continuing it in the spiritual cycle. the cups suit that has no connection to the physical but for the queen of pentacles connecting it to the mind, by completing the spiritual circle, and continuing it in the physical cycle. it should be noted that by completing the circle refers to the ten of a suit, and continueing it in the cycle means that the queen has connected the ten of a wands for example , in the two of pentacles. therefore connecting the emotions to the element of the mind. it is sounds complicated, yet as i look at it now , i see it truly makes a "circle of life" :O) (all this refers to the decanate assocaitons of the golden dawn )

Ravenswing	08 Oct 2003
well... the Golden Dawn decante system has always bothered me. I don't like the double Mars (ten of cups as Mars in Pisces followed by 2 of Wands as Mars in Aries). Their explaination that we need a little 'push' in spring doesn't quite wash to me. so.... the planets are associated with the decantes in the order that they run down the tree of life--saturn, jupiter, mars, sun, venus, mercury and moon. With the addition of the three modern planets, I place Uranus in Kether, Neptune in Chokmah and Pluto at the Da'ath. This is a placement that makes sense to me-- you very well may not see any validity in it at all. Anyway, this creates a new order. Since it is said that 'Malkuth is in Kether and Kether is in Malkuth', for the sake of the decantes, I consider Uranus to be an influence at Malkuth. This makes the order down the tree: Neptune, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon and Uranus. Pluto is not in this series since it is placed at the Da'ath. Placing the planets in this order on the wheel of the decantes, and starting with Aries, we get the following: 2 of wands-- Neptune in Aries 3 of wands-- Saturn in Aries 4 of wands-- Jupiter in Aries 5 of pentacles-- Mars in Taurus 6 of pentacles-- Sun in Taurus 7 of pentacles -- Venus in Taurus 8 of swords-- Mercury in Gemini 9 of swords-- Moon in Gemini 10 of swords-- Uranus in Gemini 2 of cups-- Neptune in Cancer 3 of cups-- Saturn in Cancer 4 of cups-- Jupiter in Cancer 5 of wands-- Mars in Leo 6 of wands-- Sun in Leo 7 of wands-- Venus in Leo 8 of pentacles-- Mercury in Virgo 9 of pentacles-- Moon in Virgo 10 of pentacles-- Uranus in Virgo 2 of swords-- Neptune in Libra 3 of swords-- Saturn in Libra 4 of swords-- Jupiter in Libra 5 of cups-- Mars in Scorpio 6 of cups-- Sun in Scorpio 7 of cups-- Venus in Scorpio 8 of wands-- Mercury in Sagittarius 9 of wands-- Moon in Sagittarius 10 of wands-- Uranus in Sagittarius 2 of pentacles-- Neptune in Capricorn 3 of pentacles-- Saturn in Capricorn 4 of pentacles-- Jupiter in Capricorn 5 of swords-- Mars in Aquarius 6 of swords-- Sun in Aquarius 7 of swords-- Venus in Aquarius 8 of cups-- Mercury in Pisces 9 of cups-- Moon in Pisces 10 of cups-- Uranus in Pisces Let's hang these cards on the tree of life: Kether-- the four aces Chokmah-- 2 of wands--Neptune in Aries 2 of cups-- Neptune in Cancer 2 of swords-- Neptune in Libra 2 of pentacles-- Neptune in Capricorn Binah-- 3 of wands-- Saturn in Aries 3 of cups-- Saturn in Cancer 3 of swords-- Saturn in Libra 3 of pentacles-- Saturn in Capricorn Chesed-- 4 of wands-- Jupiter in Aries 4 of cups-- Jupiter in Cancer 4 of swords-- Jupiter in Libra 4 of pentacles-- Jupiter in Capricorn Geburah-- 5 of wands-- Mars in Leo 5 of cups-- Mars in Scorpio 5 of swords-- Mars in Aquarius 5 of pentacles-- Mars in Taurus Tiphareth-- 6 of wands-- Sun in Leo 6 of cups-- Sun in Scorpio 6 of swords-- Sun in Aquarius 6 of pentacles-- Sun in Taurus Netzach-- 7 of wands-- Venus in Leo 7 of wands-- Venus in Scorpio 7 of swords-- Venus in Aquarius 7 of pentacles-- Venus in Taurus Hod-- 8 of wands-- Mercury in Sagittarius 8 of cups-- Mercury in Pisces 8 of swords-- Mercury in Gemini 8 of pentacles-- Mercury in Virgo Yesod-- 9 of wands-- Moon in Sagittarius 9 of cups-- Moon in Pisces 9 of swords-- Moon in Gemini 9 of pentacles-- Moon in Virgo Malkuth-- 10 of wands-- Uranus in Sagittarius 10 of cups-- Uranus in Pisces 10 of swords-- Uranus in Gemini 10 of pentacles-- Uranus in Virgo To me, this is a much 'neater' arrangement. The planet associated with the tarot card is also the planet associated with the sepirah. Also, the first triplet of sepiroth deals with the cardinal signs, the second triplet deals with the fixed signs and the third triplet deals with the mutable signs. Only 'problem'.... If we follow the Golden Dawn's idea that the astrological corrospondences determine the 'meaning' of the card, we're going to find new meaning for the cards... Evolution of Tarot??? fly well Ravenswing

Minderwiz	08 Oct 2003
Well I must admit I'm struggling a bit here - I again need to re-read and think (old age dims the mind). However the double Mars is Astrologically sound - though like Diana I have grave doubts about Tarot/Astrology link ups. If you are going to define Tarot in terms of Astrology you might as well through the cards away (even the Marseilles deck) and just do the real thing. The decantes start in Aries with Mars and end in Pisces with Mars - so Mars is indeed the alpha and the omega of the decantes. The stuff about needing an extra push in spring is probably GD hogwash - though it is the rains brought be Jupiter Pluvius (the real ruler of Pisces) that actually provides the fertile soil in which Spring can be Sprung, so to speak. :)

HOLMES	08 Oct 2003
for the feedback ravenswing, and minderwiz. your planets assocations intrigue me ravenswing, (i am still trying to understand the old system before i go put the new planets in ) i totally agree with the evolution of the tarot,, if any astrology assocations are to stand. (i saw hints of that long ago when i first got into the jungian tarot by robert wang so i guess i been heading this way since the first seed was planted) regarding astrology, tarot and throwing the cards away. i can't agree with that, for like my system of english numerology assocations (like mary k greer tarot constellations) such systems is meant to be used to understand the tarot on a deeper level, to be used when we are stuck , either psychically, inuitively, or knowledge wise. to see what i mean , look at my celtic cross experiement in reading exchange and how i used a numerolgoy extension system in each position , and not in the other postions, for me, .. i would use the tarot cards not to do astrology readings, for it is quite clear even to this novice, that astrology is so much deeper, and complex and it would be impossible to try to an astrology reading with the tarot. but it is possible to use an astrology chart and by correspondances by the two systems we can use the tarot to examine one astrology chart more in depth. (like an numerology chart, which numerology and tarot book shows use to use the tarot to expand one numerology chart) more so , it helps for us to understand the symbols and meanings behind the waite, the toth, and golden dawn tarot. combing, astrology with qabbalah to understand to the tarot more. it is clear though that tarot itself is a complete system and though we can use system to extend it ,, it does stand by itself, but what a system of undestanding.

jmd	09 Oct 2003
I'm a little late in contributing to this thread, having been somewhat inactive over the past few weeks. I suppose there are a number of related questions and issues inherent in this thread. The first is the connection which may exist between Astrology and Tarot. Personally, I consider the two independent. That some of the Tarot images reflect allegorical astrological depictions is undoubtedly an aspect which plays in, but this is different (eg, the Moon card and early representations of Cancer). The second point is to seek to understand the way the GD has sought to integrate these two together, in ways meaningful, and ways stretched. Dividing the twelve signs (or, possibly more importantly for the courts, the twelve houses) into decans - or segments of ten degrees - is quite traditional in astrology, going back to what is also termed arabian parts. The Golden Dawn was quite right in recognising that this gives us 36 sections. It is also quite clear that, for various reasons, excluding the Aces of the four suits, there are 36 pip cards left. If one thinks analogically, and if one seeks for qualitative correlations when quantitative ones are found, then these similar numbers lend themselves to correlations. How to best make the correlation is what may be in need of 'discovery'. Here, it is not difficult to just place the numbers 2 through to 10, repeated four times, around the zodiacal wheel. This is precisely, of course, what the GD did. To determine the card is then simply a matter of LOOKING to see which sign, and hence element, is allocated the number, and place thereby the corresponding card - it should be remembered that the elements had previously been allocated to the suits. Next are the seven traditional planets. Though Uranus and Neptune had already been discovered, there were other reasons to exclude them from considerations. Some of these are Kabalistic - as they do not figure in the Sefer Yetzirah nor the Zohar - others are ritualistic and alchemical - but I suppose in each case because, as mentioned, these are more recently discovered planets. Moving around the wheel, however, there is again good grounds for beginning with a specific planet and proceeding systematically - the Golden Dawn, if nothing else, were quite consistent and systematic. As Mars is the natural ruler of Aries/first house, it thus makes sense to begin there, and proceed along the wheel. __________ This accounts, then, for the Golden Dawn's allocation of the 36 pip cards upon the 36 decanates. __________ Numerous questions remain: is this useful? are there other possibilities? does this do (in)justice to either Tarot &/or Astrology? does it complicate or simplify understanding? does it provide a particular depth to the cards? Personally, I prefer to use non-astrological associations with the pips of the Tarot - preferring a key-word system and elemental suit attribution... combined with careful open awareness at what presents itself in the pictorial representation of the buds, leaves, etc of the cards, as well as careful observation as to the pointing, crossing and patterning of the suit depictions (eg, the crossing pattern of the nine staffs/wands). If one actually draws the Golden Dawn's correlations, however, it shows that it both does make sense, and that the complexity is only apparent - an inner simplicity also emerges! From there, of course, one may further question, experiment and seek for differing correlations, as presented by Ravenswing...

Minderwiz	09 Oct 2003
Thinking about the issue since yesterday, a doubt has risen in my mind as to whether the decanates symbolism is validly used by the GD. They draw on a table of essential dignities that dates back to at least Ptolemy and was probably used for a fair amount of time before him. The essential dignities show the degrees of strength a planet has in various signs. This runs from Rulership of the sign which is the very strongest down to dignity by Face (decanate) which is the weakest amount of dignity a planet can have before it becomes essentially debilitated. The Seventeenth Century Astrologer, William Lilly described dignity by Face (decanate) as 'almost like a man about to be turned out of doors having much ado to maintain himself in credit and reputation' - its just a bit better than being thrown out on the streets. If we take as an example Saturn's rulership of the third decanate of Sagittarius. 'Saturn in Sagittarius' is attributed to the ten of Wands (Crowley Tarot) but in fact Saturn anywhere else in Sagittarius is 'out on the streets' - it's only dignity is at the very end of the sign. To say the Ten of Wands is Saturn in Sagittrius is to misuse Astrological Correspondances. The correspondance, if one is allowed is Saturn between (but not including) 20 degrees Sagittarius up to and including 30 degrees Sagittarius. For some of the decanate rulerships the planet also has additional essential dignity. Mars in Pisces (10 of Cups) has essential dignity not only from the last decanate (if so placed) but also rules the Water Triplicity - Mars in the last third of Pisces is relatively much stronger than Saturn in the last third of Sagittarius. At its best this approach to tarot treats the relevant pip cards as being of little account at all and at its worst misrepresents their strength and nature completely. It might also be questioned as to whether a system based on a measure of planetary strength is appropriate for the interpretation of tarot cards.

HOLMES	09 Oct 2003
1. i do believe it is useful, useful for understanding the tarot more in depth by how the golden dawn, and the off shoots such as waite and toth by crowley still have the minors decanates of astrology associaton in them. by looking at these decanates and how the golden dawn and crowley applied them to the tarot will help us understand more about how the tarot minors meanings were given besides numerology, qabbalah, and elements. 2. there other probaly other possiblities (one is the tarot constellations by mary k greer applied to the minors suits and my own extensions systme for example) 3. i dont' know about what kind of injustice it would do to the astrology personally for i personally am not trying to do an astrology reading with the tarot,,, nor doing a tarot reading with astrology (but i may use my knowledge to expand either system , i say either for who knows perhaps one day i may become an astrologer) as long as one uses these meanigns as a basis for their own inuitve albities no injustices will occur.. the only injustice that may occur is one takes these system and uses it as their traditional meanings and become so rigid about them that a person might go around saying oh your tarot reading is wrong .. this happens in everything, to the pow wow songs at a pow wow to religon, to how to play various games. 4.for myself, it simplify the tarot for i know know where the some of the minor meanings are coming from, that no element is by itself. and while at the beginning it may complicate things, like in school going from grade ten math to grade 11 math or 11 to 12 math, as long as you have the basics , what may seem complicating will seem simple after some pratice. (by way i never graduate 12 math so some things are sill complicated for me eheh ) 5. it does provide a depth to all tarot minors, i see the minor card and i can relate now (though i have to use a book as the system though it isn't new, is still new to me as i haven't wrote or attempted to learn it yet for i want to make sure it works ) how a court can point to how to overcome the lessons of minor suit. how a person can show you to overcome an event in otherwards. example of that in life would be buddha, jesus, or the tv show showing us how to deeal with events. more so it points to where logically one might travel by use of the decantes, given the study of the golden dawn made, sure it was short lived, but it had the greatest minds*or not so great eheh* working together to figure out things. one thing is the astrology can be slightly updated to add in the new planets and that is a matter of taste depending on the user as are all things in tarot.

jmd	09 Oct 2003
Part of the points - for and against - point to the ways in which the GD used the decans. In order to understand the way in which the correlations were made, focus should probably be better made on simply dividing each sign into three parts (hence each ten degrees, and hence strictly decans), but not attempt to link it to ways in which the decans have developed in astrology - for that is not the way the GD makes the planetary allocations to each decan. In astrology, part of the process which leads to understanding is to see how the planets relate to each of the decans in each of the signs. With the GD, the planetary influences are not to deepen an understanding of the sign, but rather to provide an added dimension to the pips. In that sense, to follow a very specific planetary order - the order which, incidentally, also give us the order of the days of the week (through rulership of successive hours in the day) - makes 'sense'. When one applies a deeper understanding of astrology (as Minderwiz does) to assess the correlations the GD makes, then it does become obvious that their 'decanate' planetary associations somehow doesn't quite gell with what may be deemed to better suit. But is that the point of the GD's use of 'decanate'? After all, they had no hesitation in changing planetary associations with the double letters of the Hebrew alphabet, or altering the order of the Majors, or using a Tree of Life not adopted by traditional Kabbalists. If we consider each and all of these points, then the GD's enterprise of planetary allocations, systematically proceeding around the circle divided in decans, makes sense. The GD is not saying that 'here are the best planetary allocations to the decans', but rather, that 'here are the impulses working themselves in the pips as we are going to consider and use them'... (though expressed in somewhat stronger or more definite terms). Holmes's point that class 12 mathematics will be quite complex to someone with only primary maths (to exagerate the analogy) is quite apt here. The GD allocations are not inherently complicated, but working on the basis from which they emerge needs to be made.

Minderwiz	10 Oct 2003
I have to be very careful here to contain my ignorance and not let it loose on things that I haven't really studied :) So much of my response is in the form of questions. I certainly accept that the GD was concerned to tease additional meaning or understanding out of the pip cards, rather than to seek to develop an Astrological analysis. I think my basic questions are why use this approach and do they use it in a valid way. Now here is where ignorance sets in. My feeling is that the GD use this approach and indeed other 'Astrological' correlations in order to have a unified (for them) Qabbalistic (on their definitions) view of the metaphysical and esoteric, which also includes the Tarot. If that is true then the symbolism of say 'Saturn in Sagittarius' is not an Astrological one per se for them but a Qabbalistic one (from their point of view). However the decan rulerships that they use are ones which are accepted in Astrology and indeed have a very long history - they have used a symbolism established for over 2000 years before they came on the scene. It is a system which probably predates the Qabbalah - though that is clearly arguable. What they seem to be doing is to try and incorporate and correlate that symbolism to their view of the Qabbalah, which might involve distorting its original meaning and indeed its current meaning to Astrologers. If I'm right, and I'm very hesitant here, those who understand the GD Qabbalah will understand the overlay of the decanate expressions for the pip cards in terms of thier underlying Qabbalistic view. Such an overlay may have little direct meaning for an Astrologer and may mean little to the uninitiated (into the GD meanings). Again, if I'm right perhaps the correct critical approach may be on their use (or misuse) of Qabbalistic symbolism. I'm just not in a position to hazard any statement on that.

HOLMES	10 Oct 2003
i see now, regardless of the if the system works, was their basis for the system based on good solid foundations ? or shall it fall like the tower of illusions .. i agree with you that the gd meanings would have little affect on the beginner tarotists. using myelf as an example i been into tarot for 13 years now , and only in the last week have i been trying to figure out astrology meanings for the minors (well besides the jungian tarot post i made last year) previously i couldn't be brothered and said hell with that. yet now i feel that by studying these system i can learn a bit more about astrology, why the tarot minors mean what they do using qabalistic astrology for it isn't purely astrology , or qabbalah eh. if i may use the jungian tarot for a moment as an example i got that deck in the early ninties , and i didnt' understand the minors (still don't for i haven't got to that part of study yet ) in the book he says to the affect. any qabbalah student would be able to the understand the minors by the sephiroth on the minor cards themselves. i said what ? and only recently realized that the colour sphere relates directly to the sephiroth on the tree of life. and he said the same thing as well for his astrology assocations that any astrologer who uses his system can see how astrology changes the minor now it was updated .. and this made some sad cards not as sad and vice versa for some of the happy cards. all of this has made me want to understand the qabbalah, and after the astrology and back to the original point. this is obivously a sort of advanced method for understanind the tarot minors, and the court cards as well. but if we can relate to it enough to put into laymen terms for the beginner, we would be able to help them out a lot in their tarot study i feel.

Minderwiz	10 Oct 2003
Thanks HOLMES I think there are two distinct approaches here. One is to try and understand how and why the GD approached Tarot and how some Tarot systems are based on their views. Such an exploration helps us to understand Tarot in more depth - even if we don't agree with the GD. There's much to be learned from studying history and the way in which previous taroists have approached the Tarot. The second is to argue about whether the Astrological correspondences are in some sense 'correct'. I think the former approach is the more helpful because the 'correctness' of the correspondences is secondary to the reasoning behind the system. that gives us more room to explore our own understanding of the Tarot.

jmd	11 Oct 2003
For those interested in a visual depiction of the decanate planetary rulership - and a bit of wonderful astrological history - this History of the Stars site should prove quite useful... This is certainly a wonderful thread.

Minderwiz	11 Oct 2003
Thanks for the link! It certainly provides a challenge for me to try and get some knowledge of tarot history.

HOLMES	13 Oct 2003
how about now we discuss the intial theory that i start a basic astrology in the minors , giving the astrology background for each tarot , planet wise, then sign wise then how what they mean together, ? and then you advanced astrologer know how people (hehe ) can come and add in your thoughts ? 1. should it be in one thread, 2. should it be in one source thread and then posted into an dividual thread like my jungian tarot study group 3. or should it just a brunch of little threads.

Macavity	14 Oct 2003
In answer to a recent PM question from Holmes: I never have much success scanning book diagrams. At reduced size the (e.g. DuQuette) text is a bit small and there might by copyright issues, so here's one I made earlier. This owes something to ideas from Paul Hughes-Barlow (suite colours etc.) and Lon Milo DuQuette (putting things in a circle for a change!). And above all, those Ancient Egyptians? Thanks for the link JMD :D Macavity P.S. It's still a bit SMALL at the maximum posting size allowed. Hopefully not too much eyestrain is involved... })

jmd	14 Oct 2003
I know this is not what Holmes was suggesting, but partly as a result of his post, I started looking again in various ways at the cards from astrological perspectives - though mainly the Majors. I have at times relayed how I tend to see in quite obvious ways similarity of iconography between XVIII the Moon and Cancer (which it rules), and XVIIII the Sun and Gemini. But in a couple of new threads, namely Astrological imagery and Strength as Virgo & Leo, other comments, which may or may not be of interest, are made for further discussion... _____ but to return to the task at hand: Looking at each of the 2s, in the first decan of each of the four cardinal signs, the planetary influences are: Mars (2 Wands) Aries ; Venus (2 Cups) Cancer ; Moon (2 Swords) Libra ; Jupiter (2 Coins) Capricorn . It would prove useful, Minderwiz, to maybe start a (linked) thread on Mars in Aries, etc, in the Astrology section, without discussion of the cards, and then return here to discuss how this may be reflected in the cards... edited to add link

Rusty Neon	23 Nov 2003
Agrippa's decans descriptions and their possible linkages to Mathers/GD pip card divinatory meanings: http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html

The decanates, in the tarot minors, thread was originally posted on 01 Oct 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.