Numerology vs. Swords
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Dave_D |
01 Oct 2003 |
|
Hi all,
I am satisfied with the meanings derived by combining numerology and suits, EXCEPT when it comes to a few cards; most of them swords. It has been suggested to me that this is an inherent limitation of the Rider Waite and Thoth decks. Can somebody please explain?
For example, two of cups is intuitively derived from numerology (two: duality, partnership) plus suit (cups: love, happiness) to perhaps mean "partnership of love & happiness." However, two of swords from a Rider Waite deck is generally not accepted to mean "partnership of struggle & animosity," which could suggest an argumentative co-worker or partner or, conversely, an ally (a partner IN struggle & animosity). Instead, the image is more literally translated to suggest "difficulty in making a choice." Okay, she's blindfolded. I get it.
Perhaps an even more poignant example comes from threes: Three of cups might translate to "growth, child of love & happiness" whereas the three of swords is not generally taken to mean "growth, child of struggle & animosity," which could be taken to suggest an increase in conflict, a conclusion born of intense debate, a child born to single parents or even a rape. But again, the general concensus suggests that a more literal translation of the IMAGE is to be used: "heartbreak." A heart with swords in it. I get it. [...and who wouldn't?]
So, why do the Rider Waite and Thoth decks stray from numerology in this way? Are other decks available that "correct" for this deviation from the otherwise intuitive pattern?
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Dave
|
| Rusty Neon |
01 Oct 2003 |
|
I'm oversimplifying a bit but hey it's fun ... In both the Golden Dawn approach to tarot and in certain cartomancy traditions that predated the GD, Swords were seen as negative, destructive, cutting. Just look at them, they're weapons. Therefore, in the Golden Dawn based decks (which would include the Rider-Waite deck and Thoth and decks based on RW and Thoth), the Swords generally have a negative aspect that may not necessarily flow from numerology and suit or from the astrological assignments that GD assigns to the cards. The best Swords pips represent temporary rest or escape from strife (4 and 6 of Swords) rather than true happy states.
The negativity to Swords sits OK with me. It balances some of the overpositive cards in the other suits.
Note also that Swords corresponds to the element Air and thus the mental realm: The mind is always anxious and in movement; the outer world of a person can be solid but inside he can be in turmoil, or feel that way.
Most modern decks of the anglophone tarot tradition follow the RW/Thoth/GD paradigm. Thus, in such decks, you'll see pretty much the same negative meaning to the Swords suit. Some decks of that tradition (e.g., Tarot of the Spirit) will try to put a more positive spin on at least of some of the Swords cards while still respecting the general idea of each given card.
If you're looking to work with numerology and suit to derive divinatory meanings, your answer may lie with tarot decks (such as the Tarot de Marseille) which have non-pictorial pips and don't have keywords and consequently don't automatically communicate GD divinatory meanings.
|
| Umbrae |
02 Oct 2003 |
|
The biggest issue with swords is that they represent conflict and intellect. Is intellect conflict? What? Should we go by the images on the Waite-Colman Smith cards or the numerical progressive beauty of the Marseilles?
Let’s talk about intellect and conflict.
Where does conflict come from?
It does not come from the heart, or the emotional aspect of living. Crimes of passion, where someone’s feelings get hurt – are a matter of ‘thought corruption’. My great-grandfather “thought” his wife was cheating on him and killed her and himself, while the children watched. Because he was jealous? No, because he thought, and did not find the truth – he found only an erroneous conclusion.
It’s my opinion that erroneous conclusions are the prime cause of most of the world’s conflict.
Many conflicts begin because of a disparity between reality and expectations. Usually, person A was so busy thinking of what they were going to say, so that they would appear witty and intelligent, that they in fact failed to listen to, and comprehend, what person B was really saying.
So when reality strikes, person A is left angry. Then you have to explain that you cannot change reality, but you can change their expectations.
That’s intellect.
Are there good intellect, or non-conflict, Swords? You bet. Each and every one of them. Relying upon the pictures or the books they may look bad. Put them in a spread and they may change.
However many of us were ‘taught’, an intellectual exercise, that ‘this’ card equates to ‘that’ meaning.
Our world of ‘possibilities’ was closed off by an ‘intellectual exercise’.
As civilized humans, we tend to overanalyze things; we treat Tarot like a butterfly, impaling it with a pin so we may examine it in safety. We buy a plethora of books so we can stand back and declare, “This is…!”
It’s the human way; we cannot ‘let it be’. We intellectualize things, we study things, we think about things…and what’s left?
After we’ve ‘figured it out’, what’s left?
Have we figured out electricity? We know what it does, but we don’t really know what it is…it defies definition.
Sadness and heartache are, at the outset, about Cups. As humans we begin to think about how we feel…the emotions become intellectualized. Brooding is the intellectual exercise of taking a Cup, and beating into a Sword.
So take the Eight of Cups…huge card! Many do not want to understand that sometimes you have to leave stuff behind – if you want to enjoy the party.
Or the 3 of Swords, many people assign it to a third party, “It’s not me! I’m the victim here! After all…he hit me back!” Usually the 3 of Swords is a warning about upcoming denial, which is intellectual.
Dragging emotions around is not emotional. It is intellectual. But folks don’t want to leave stuff behind. That’s the key to understanding the Swords and Cups.
Ideas which are founded in error, or which have run their course and are kept alive, the old beating a dead horse syndrome…are about the disparity between reality and expectations. Anytime any of these are present – expect issues.
|
| Moongold |
02 Oct 2003 |
|
Greetings Dave and welcome to Aeclectic,
A very interesting thread. We are so trapped by the conventional interpretations of 2 Swords and 3 Swords. I have no real idea what the original thinking was behind the images but I sometimes discern some satire in Pixie Colman Smith’s interpretations, and threads perhaps of alternate meanings. Both 2 Swords and 3 Swords are really graphic images and they seem to have been given very literal interpretations by popular history.
Let me propose some alternatives and they may be stretching things a little, maybe not.
2 represents the female principle of receptivity. It seeks balance between opposing forces. This image could very well demonstrate that. The woman is blindfolded and passive. The ideas of receptivity and balance could certainly be construed by this image.
3 combines the qualities of 1 and 2, and carries the qualities of manifestation and self-expression. . 3 is about creativity, amongst other things. This image could be saying that you must bring heart and mind together for inspired creativity. The heart (feelings) being pierced by thought/mind (Swords). I could speculate about the clouds but I won’t now.
I have sometimes wondered in these forums how much of herself, her values and experience Pixie Colman Smith put into each image that she created. And I continue to see satire and humour that others don’t. Does anyone else?
I’d like to go through every image and give each one a different interpretation based on these views. One day perhaps..?
|
| Rusty Neon |
02 Oct 2003 |
|
Numerology + Suit can yield at least one positive meaning and at least one negative meaning for each card.
Generally, the RW pictures depict either a positive meaning or a negative meaning, but not both. (Of course, some of the cards are wonderfully ambiguous and could depict positive or negative meanings, as Moongold has noted.)
If a deck creator really wants to have pictorial pips but wants to reconcile with numerology + suit for the pips, there should be at least two different pictures -- or two pictures in one -- for each card, to depict both a positive meaning and a negative meaning. In fact, if you read the Golden Dawn source materials, you'll see that those materials give both at least one positive meaning and at least one negative meaning for each pip card.
|
| ihcoyc |
02 Oct 2003 |
|
I generally follow a mixed numerology and element interpretation of the pips, which is one reason why I prefer traditional decks to the RWS tradition.
It takes adjustments across the board, not only among the Swords. For instance, you have to take the 5 of Batons much more seriously than the RWS does: while the 5 of Swords may be an argument or a trick, the 5 of Batons is a mugging. All the Tens are about overburdening, needing a new approach, time to move on.
|
| Moongold |
02 Oct 2003 |
|
For those who want a fresh approach, the tarot of the Sephiroth would be worth looking at. The elemental meanings of the suits remain the same but the images are quite simple and use other symbols related to Qabalah and astrology,
For example, 2 Swords shows gold and silver swords crossing, indicating opposites in harmony, equal armed crosses showing matter, and a leminscate indicating infinity. The astrological attribution is Moon in Libra.
The meaning given to this image by the creator is left brain, right brain integration; balanced intellectual processes; logic.
The Sephiroth is worth investigating for those who want an alternative to what I would call the narrative decks. It uses elemental and astrological associations, numerology, colour and simple strong graphics.
|
| HOLMES |
03 Oct 2003 |
|
it may seem not as numerically harmonized as we may think,
that is due to both creators not only relying on numbers ideals, but also
astrology,
elements,
qabbalah,
and when we think of the tarot cards and numerology it is wise to think of ,
numbers as manifested in the element of the mind, for swords,
|
| Dave_D |
13 Oct 2003 |
|
Thank you, all, for the terrific insight. Please forgive my slow reply, but the scope of information provided has been a bit intimidating.
The use of "elements" is new to me, though I will confess that the swords have always represented an internal struggle, rather than physical conflict, which does seem to jive with the 'air/mental' theme. It was immediately evident to me that there simply isn't enough physical conflict in our society today that would warrant a suit of such violent cards or we'd have modernized the deck by now to be taken more literally. "Uh oh, you received the nine of GUNS! Have you updated your will?"
The overriding lesson I am sensing from all of your input is that the RWS and Thoth decks simply don't jive with numerology and that I shouldn't try to make it do so. They come close and were undoubtedly influenced by numerology, but not close enough to be predictable across every card. While Holmes mentions an abundance of influences competing with the numerilogical definitions, another thread quotes Waite as having said that the imagery for the minor arcana was randomly or haphazardly picked. I also appreciate Rusty Neon's suggestion that swords might have been too powerful an image of violence for some to deal with impartially. Either way, it becomes abundantly clear that a strict adherence to numerology has been sacrificed in the RWS and Thoth decks; that I have been attempting to put square pegs in round holes. ie. To know the RWS is to study each card individually.
Sorry to sound spoiled, but this leaves me wanting for a 'modified' RWS deck. I don't wish to take on the chore of building a complete deck from the ground up when RWS comes so very close (and I have already invested so much time in studying those images). Instead, I find myself wanting to replace that handful of cards that stray from numerology with imagery that keeps things in line:
For example, the TWO OF SWORDS: Two soldiers, swords in hand (tips-down, unchallenging), shake hands firmly. Expressions are serious. Have former enemies found a truce? Do we sense a love/hate relationship or friendship of convenience? Are these allies against a common enemy?
Why couldn't RWS have employed such exceedingly obvious imagery?
I suppose my options are to build a deck or hunt for a deck, as Moongold suggested the Sephiroth, that meets my criteria exactly. Neither seems likely.
Hmmm.... Maybe it would be better to simply accept the RWS deck as it is.
Again, thank you all for your valuable advice.
Dave
|
| HOLMES |
13 Oct 2003 |
|
i think that if you used numerology as the primary focus for a new deck, you could make the numerological tarot . with the teachings of the number in the archtype.
i mean why not there, is the astrological tarot, the tarot of the sephiroth,
of course there is the pythergorean tarot, and i have it, but it is so complex, (lots of reading )
that deck focuses on older numerology (greek and such )
as i relate more things to the tarot, i find i learn more, in fact i get tarot decks to study the other systems for the tarot gives me a basis.
and should you make a numerology tarot with numerology as the basis it could sell.
you would be able to make your modified rsw tarot :O) (if you got art talent)
regarding the rsw, i do believe that the common thesis is waite wanted the majors to stay close to his design, and he letted coleman do the minors as long as they mean the same.
but that is just what i heard in rumors,
there is a book out there i heard about with waite other writings about the tarot not in his tarot book and that sheds a lot of light on his tarot. *give me a few days to remember where i put that link or where i saw it*
if you were to accept rsw as it is , you may eventually begin to study qabbalah, and decantes (one aspect of what they used from astrology to help define the minors )
|
| swoosh |
14 Oct 2003 |
|
i dont think rider-waite strays from numerology with the suit of swords. heres my take on the examples u gave Dave:
2 of swords:
ok, so the swords are crossed...but not at the blade (which would mean sum type of conflict), they are crossed at the arms, which i believe means that one has made a temporary alliance with someone they have been arguing/fighting with. so seeing the card in this light does relate it in some way with the 2 of cups as they are both concerned with a type of union.
3 of cups:
i know this is supposed to be like a happy/celebrating type card but...i tend to see it like this: all the cups are empty, but are still being offered. is this because one has been trying to love another but without success, as the cup may have been full once but is now depleted from trying so much. an "empty cup quenches no thirst" right. so i guess this can be a form of heartache
well thats my take on it. im probably wrong lol.
|
| Umbrae |
14 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by swoosh
3 of cups:
i know this is supposed to be like a happy/celebrating type card but...i tend to see it like this: all the cups are empty, but are still being offered. is this because one has been trying to love another but without success, as the cup may have been full once but is now depleted from trying so much. an "empty cup quenches no thirst" right. so i guess this can be a form of heartache
I dunno...ain't this the card that in some decks shows the three women dancing with cups? Empty or full...it's three women dancing...Woo Hoo!
|
| Sulis |
14 Oct 2003 |
|
Mmm, I would have to agree with Umbrae. The 3s are the culmination of the 1 and 2, so with the suit of cups that would give a very positive card, a celebration, emotions in abundance, that's why the 3 women are dancing.
Love and light
Sulis xx
|
| Hedera |
14 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Dave_D
For example, the TWO OF SWORDS: Two soldiers, swords in hand (tips-down, unchallenging), shake hands firmly. Expressions are serious. Have former enemies found a truce? Do we sense a love/hate relationship or friendship of convenience? Are these allies against a common enemy?
Why couldn't RWS have employed such exceedingly obvious imagery?
Dave
Dave, I'm just curious if you're familiar with the Nigel Jackson deck?
The image you describe is VERY similar to the 2 of swords in that deck. It's even a man and a woman....
It's mostly an RWS-variant, but with some interesting differences.
|
| bonnycat |
14 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Dave_D
[b
for example, the two of swords: two soldiers, swords in hand (tips-down, unchallenging), shake hands firmly. expressions are serious. have former enemies found a truce? do we sense a love/hate relationship or friendship of convenience? are these allies against a common enemy?
dave [/b]
Another suggestion The Tarot of Ages two of swords show two men swords raised but touching with a white dove flying above them. I have always felt this is more about peace between sworn ememies.
Bonnycat
|
| catti |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Dave_D
For example, the TWO OF SWORDS: Two soldiers, swords in hand (tips-down, unchallenging), shake hands firmly. Expressions are serious. Have former enemies found a truce? Do we sense a love/hate relationship or friendship of convenience? Are these allies against a common enemy?
Why couldn't RWS have employed such exceedingly obvious imagery?
Dave
Medieval Scapini deck has just that image
|
| isthmus nekoi |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
Dave, I find Thoth is more in tune w/numerological meanings, but it is also very heavily influenced by kaballah....
As for cups, if you read the Book of Thoth, you will find that 'good' cards like the 3 of cups, 9 of cups etc are actually quite complex and not necessarily 'good'. Nor are the nice looking swords necessarily positive. 4 of swords is described as a compromise of the weak minded, for example.
|
| swoosh |
18 Oct 2003 |
|
oh yea i know that the 3 of cups is a positive card, but the example i gave was just another way of lookin at the card.
example: lets say u just broke up with ur partner and ur like totally heartbroken, and in ur reading the 3 of cups appears in a current environment position. then i would give the whole "empty cup" theory of mine (seriously i am not that morbid).
|
The Numerology vs. Swords thread was originally posted on 01 Oct 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
|
