Problems with The Heirophant and Temperance

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

PurpleSal	31 Oct 2003
These two cards keep coming up for me and I always have problems interpreting them. Can anyone give me some insight - especially the Hierophant - I usually go with "feeling constricted by authority or tradition " and then elaborate from there but it doesn't feel right. Temperance - a balancing card I think but then again I also find myself tongue tied when this one crops up... I'm a natural blonde btw so speak slowly! Thank you! Sal xx

Diana	31 Oct 2003
You know Sal, my personal experience of the Hierophant is that whenever I pull this card, it refers to someone who has knowledge that I don't. For instance, it can refer to a doctor, or a school-teacher, or a book that I need it read. It can mean that I need to take my cat to the vet, if I'm doing a reading on the cat. It is a card that always brings me comfort, because it shows me that even if I cannot possess all knowledge, there is someone or something out there who has it. I cannot recall this card ever having referred to the constricted authority that you talk of, which is a very common interpretation, I have noticed, of this card on the Aeclectic Tarot Forums, and I suppose in some Tarot books as well. Usually when my reading is on myself - it means I should go and see a doctor. If it's for my son, then it almost always refers to one of his teachers. If it's for my husband, then it often means that he needs more intellectual stimulation (too much television). I love this card. It brings me great comfort. (I'll leave Temperance for another post, unless other people say what I have to say about it!)

gloria	31 Oct 2003
Hi Sal, You know I’m not expecting this to help you, but looking at the RW Temperance card just now, I suddenly thought of a guy behind the bar mixing cocktails, and with one foot in water, could someone have spilt their beer? I shall be thinking in a minute, why did I send that? But anyway here goes. Gloria. PS Maybe it’s reflecting what I could do with right now!

raeanne	31 Oct 2003
Hi PurpleSal, Here’s the way I see these two cards: Heirophant – This is the ‘conformist’ card. It’s about learning all of the customs, rituals, ideals, etc. that your family, community, country, or heritage has to offer and whether or not you accept those customs. If you were raised in rural Alabama by a family who are members of the Klu Klux Klan, you will probably have a completely different outlook on life than if you were raised by a family that lives in metropolitan Paris. Suppose you meet someone from a different ethnic group and want to date them. These two different backgrounds will view the situation differently. (I apologize to these two geographical areas for using them as stereotypes but it does help get my point across!) When this card shows up in a throw, I usually interpret it as meaning either way outside the box or way too deep inside the box. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation. This card can mean that you are either conforming way too much or you are being a non-conformist. Mom and Dad, community, church, friends, whatever may not be too supportive of this or you are letting them control you too much. Temperance – This is the card that I call the ‘Goldie Locks’ card. Goldie Locks wanted everything ‘just right’, not too hot, not too cold, but ‘just right’. This does NOT mean that she settled for mediocrity! It means that she had things the way that was the best for her. This card is called Art in some deck (as in the Art of Alchemy). The goal of Alchemy is to turn lesser elements into gold by combining a little of this, some of that, a pinch of this, an eye of newt, (opps, sorry, scratch the eye of newt). In our lives, we need to find the right combination to make our lives ‘just right’. For each of us to be our best we need not only physical things like food and rest but also friendship, love, independence, time with friends, time alone, etc. When the Temperance card shows up, I usually see it as a sign that something is getting way out of line either too much or too little. I hope this helps. I look forward to seeing how others view these cards.

isthmus nekoi	31 Oct 2003
They are both numerological 5s. Five is a number of change and instability.

gloria	01 Nov 2003
Until reading Diana’s thoughts here on the Hierophant, I’d never been able to relate in anyway to this card. The Pope or Figurehead of the Church doesn’t really apply to the way most people live their lives today. (Hope I shant be shot down in flames for that comment) Diana’s interpretation of this archetype certainly appeals to me, and one that at last I am able to understand. The one idea I shall still cling to when the Hierophant appears is that of listenening to your inner voice. It never fails to point you in the right direction. Gloria.

firemaiden	01 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by raeanne This is the ‘conformist’ card. It’s about learning all of the customs, rituals, ideals, etc. that your family, community, country, or heritage has to offer and whether or not you accept those customs. Like Diana, I really disagree with this interpretation. Well, disagree is too strong a word; let's say this is not the meaning I use, and I don't like it. I think it says more about our own experiences and attitudes about the Church, than it does about the actual Hierophant. I see the Hierophant a generous person with deep wisdom, truly capable of communicating with the Divine and sharing the connection. Someone who can help you touch the divine, and someone who has a great gift for healing, as well as for teaching. A model in history might be Jesus himself, or someone like the Legendary Rabbi Lowe who lived in Prague in the 16th century (as portrayed in the fantastic novel by Leo Perütz: By night under the stone bridge) My view of this card was probably shaped by the Crowley Deck, and also the Spiral Deck. For Crowley, the hierophant is the "Manifestor of Mystery". In the Spiral, the hierophant is the centaur Chiron - the wounded healer. There are many websites which discuss the idea of the wounded healer. (As in a therapist who became a therapist because of his own search to heal a terrible psychic trauma). It is a psychic wound itself which gives the Hieropant his power to see and manifest the Mystery and in so doing help heal the wounds of others. See the Chiron Myth Chiron - the wouded healer and The Book of Thoth on the Hierophant

gloria	01 Nov 2003
Quote: They are both numerological 5s. Five is a number of change and instability. I understand Temperance to be the blending of elements by which produces stability. So seems to be contradiction here. G.

Indigo_lady	01 Nov 2003
About the Hierophant When Hierophant pops up it has usually been linked with "earthly" issues, just as Taurus For example in love spreads for one of the parts involved in whose life religion and culture play such an important role that they need to comply with it in any choice that they make in their life, especially when the person that they're involved with is not part of their culture :( It stands for people who feel inside the pressure that their background excerts on them (and my very personal view it also appears when they don't have enough drive to question it) just conforming to rules... not complicating your life much It has also stood for grounding things, laying foundations or settling down, some people link it to marriage and alliances, but I guess just as with everything in tarot it depends on what you've got around it As Diana said, it also stands for earthly knowledge, someone who will be able to shed light on something you need. Your own personal light at the end of the tunnel (well.. not so influential, but indeed something in the lines of that) For me in this cases, it usually stands for a "teacher" of some sort in your life. For the Doctors I always look for the Magician though. Temperance calls on the need to find balance in your life... or depending on where it is, it can also be a call for you to stop being so impartial and take a stand and some action When it indeed needs you to find a balance it is also asking you to be patient in reaching/discovering your balance, just as a scientist trying out all the formulas and the different chemicals that can affect it. You've got to take some rest in sorting things out I personally also relate this card to sexuality, but that's more my personal instinct I hope this helps you ;)

Thirteen	01 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by gloria I understand Temperance to be the blending of elements by which produces stability. So seems to be contradiction here. There does seem to be a contridiction between 5 (instablity) and Temperance (harmony). But the instability of #5's is resolved by way of finding solutions (that other shore) seen in #6, rather than just plowing through it, like #7, to speedier and easier times--#8. This, I think, is what makes the Temperance and the Hierophant (#5's) similar. The Hierophant is striving to connect heaven and Earth, to bring the etheral, perfect, ordered wisdom of above down to the solid, imperfect, chaotic world below. He is the conduit (the bartender if you will) through which this happens. The failure of the Hierophant, is if he lop-sidedly tries to impose rigid order, when he uses Fiat to achieve his goal ("That's what the Bible/Koran says, do it!" Or, in bartender terms, "That's the recipe. I follow the recipe." It doesn't matter if you like your martinis shaken, not stirred, he's not going to bend or change the recipe). The focus being more on behavioral rules by which you shove all people up the ladder to heaven rather than a spiritual bridge tailor made to allow each person to find their own way between the two. The success of the Hierophant comes when he embraces the imperfect world as much as perfect heaven--when, as said, he's the wounded healer, a Jesus figure who has embraced humanity, who empathizes personally with the hurt, the temptations, the dispair. That's when he can give each person their own personal bridge to the spiritual--and to a solution. (In bartender terms, he adjusts the recipe to fit the tastes/needs of the customer). Temperance is doing something similar. Like the Hierophant, the angel is a conduit between two opposites. It tries to mix those two in hopes of achieving synthesis. What will merge these opposites into a unified whole? It isn't like the 5's, a moment of discord and chaos--but it is, like the 5's and the Hierophant, a time of searching for a solution, of mixing ingredients to find that answer. A pointing of the way to a possible synthesis.

Umbrae	01 Nov 2003
If you go out and pick up a Swiss IJJ, you don’t have to deal with the Hierophant. Actually, pick up a real deck (hee hee hee), a Marseilles Deck, and there is no Hierophant. The Hierophant is a 1909 invention of Arthur Edward Waite. Prior, it was The Pope (Le Pape). The Swiss IJJ has Jupiter. The real question is, do the Pope, Jupiter, and the Hierophant share the same divinatory meanings to you? As for Temperance (from the French temperantia, meaning ‘moderation’), I always think of “The Well-Tempered Clavichord”, by Johann Sebastian Bach. In this usage it refers to being ‘tuned’, strings acting on concord with each other. Temperance – perhaps acting in concord with others, moderation…a little of this, a little of that…like a bartender mixing – as opposed to pulling the cork out of a whiskey bottle and pouring it straight down your gullet.

isthmus nekoi	01 Nov 2003
I think there is a difference b/w mixing/moderation and balance. Balance, adjustment etc I find are concepts covered by Justice. Perhaps instability is the wrong word... it is something new (the fifth element) that undoes the stability (or stalemate) created by the 4.

Umbrae	01 Nov 2003
Temperance is more about Balance. Justice is more about personal responsibility. Remember...in REAL tarot, Justice is 8 - and comes way before 14. Think about 8 in numerological terms...eight represent justice, judgment, and also metamorphosis. The dual stability of love and friendship; and the abilities of power, leadership, money, and career issues. Eights relate to the focus and control necessary to direct your energy toward achieving your goals. It's easy to confuse with Strength. But it's important to differentiate Justice with personal responsibility ("I did it") so we can move forward...and the balancing - tuning and truing... Years back I used to build bicycle wheels. You start with a bunch of parts, you learn how to lace the spokes (are you touring, or racing, or bopping around town?)…and then the process of making the wheel round and true – on all three planes. A twist here and a twist there. It can appear round, but if some of the spokes are doing more of the work than the others it’s not really true. I think Temperance should be shown sitting next to the side of the road truing a bike wheel… Justice should be stitching a wrecked knee, “Hey I didn’t see the rock!”

Moongold	01 Nov 2003
How different it all is. :D Hierophant can be a bridge between the outer world and the inner world, between the outer form of religion and its inner reality (Ozaniec) There are some parallels between Hierophant and High Priestess. Both have the capacity to reveal mysteries but in different ways. Hierophant reveals the mysteries of the inner world whereas High Priestess draws me in, gives them to me, submerges me in them if I allow that. Hierophant represents the masculine whereas High Priestess is the feminine I love the thought of the Hierophant as Chiron, the Wounded Healer, He appears so in the Mythic Deck as well. The Healer brings the knowledge from consciousness of his own wounds to the healing of others: the bridge between inner and outer experience again. Hierophant reversed can mean the perverse use of the Mysteries, the conversion to Orthodoxy and rigid establishment. Revelation becomes dogma not inspiration. Bureaucracy overtakes spirit.. I see Justice as being about balance, both personal and cosmic. Justice is not to be feared. She reveals all that is unbalanced in us so that we can become what we are meant to be. I actually don’t see Temperance as being about balance or moderation. If you look at the Angel she has one foot in the water and one on land. The Angel is a Guide from the murky waters of the unconscious to the firm land of understanding. By pouring from one cup to another she illustrates the connections between the shadow and enlightenment. It is about integration: the Shadow and Enlightenment. She gives hope. temper means to mix, to blend to integrate. That is simply what these mean to me right now. Others have different experiences, and mine might change as well :)

Umbrae	01 Nov 2003
Today we were discussing Justice. Card 11 or 8. Some say it must be eleven because it is the balance point of the major Arcana. I say turn the eight on its side and it becomes the Ouroboros. Folks generally think they understand the card…it’s about justice, legal issues…it’s about the other guy. It is never about us. Justice is not about blame…it’s about awareness, actions, and adjustment of ego based behaviors; anger, worry, rudeness, pettiness. The things that keep us separate from the spiritual. On of the earliest depictions of a scale used in concordance with the concept of Justice is in the “Egyptian Book of the Dead”. Ma’at, aided by Thoth, weighs the heart against an ostrich feather; which way does it tip? One way is good, the other… He’s not weighing the other guys heart…he weighs yours and mine. That’s what blows about some religions…do what you want, you’re forgiven, you don’t have to change your behavior. But in the real world you do. Justice is not about legal right or wrong. It is about adjustment, and acknowledgment of responsibility. It’s about moral right and wrong. Jung once said, “Morals were not brought down from Sinai on a tablet and imposed upon people; it is a function of the human soul which is as old as mankind itself.” Justice is about certain behaviors which serve to hold humanity as a cohesive group. When we stopped wandering as tribes, created and moved to villages and towns, we found that some behaviors would no longer work. Justice is what holds chaos at bay Justice affects you and me with equal weight. I understand that I must do what is necessary, to clear my being of fear, guilt, and shame. Do whatever is necessary to free my true self. I know that I must exorcise all unrecognized denial. Justice is not about the other guy. It’s about my behavior, or lack thereof. If I choose to turn away from the spiritual path and become petty, I had better be ready for the consequences. Justice is about Cause and effect. In the desert, you carry your own water. Justice tells us that when we fight against others, those things we hide within ourselves…we are using not the sword of wisdom, or the sword of truth…but the sword of lies. One cannot unite with The Sword of Lies…and that’s the truth… (From http://www.m-w.com/) Temperance? Etymology: Middle English, from Latin temperantia, from temperant-, temperans, present participle of temperare to moderate, be moderate… Temper Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): tem·pered; tem·per·ing /-p(&-)ri[ng]/ Etymology: Middle English, from Old English & Old French; Old English temprian & Old French temprer, from Latin temperare to moderate, mix, temper; probably akin to Latin tempor-, tempus time Date: before 12th century 1 : to dilute, qualify, or soften by the addition or influence of something else : MODERATE 2 archaic a : to exercise control over : GOVERN, RESTRAIN b : to cause to be well disposed : MOLLIFY 3 : to bring to a suitable state by mixing in or adding a usually liquid ingredient: as a : to mix (clay) with water or a modifier (as grog) and knead to a uniform texture b : to mix oil with (colors) in making paint ready for use 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating at a lower temperature (2) : to harden (as steel) by reheating and cooling in oil b : to anneal or toughen (glass) by a process of gradually heating and cooling 5 : to make stronger and more resilient through hardship : TOUGHEN 6 a : to put in tune with something : ATTUNE b : to adjust the pitch of (a note, chord, or instrument) to a temperament

gloria	02 Nov 2003
At last I have been freed from the confines of this card. I have always associated the Hierophant with the church, religion etc.,but no, it lends itself to schools, clubs, teams, societies et al. Anywhere where rules, facts, procedures and the like come into play. Some kind of structured group where participants share common bonds, beliefs and goals. Where knowledge is revealed by way of teachers, experts in their field. After all, Hierphaine a word taken from Hierophant means “to reveal.” So The Hierophant could in fact represent the Aeclectic!? :) Gloria

Adele	02 Nov 2003
yes, the hierophant is about higher knowledge... higher sources... being guided via this channel, etc. it is the card of the Pope, so a very spiritual/religious card as well. sometimes it can signify a religious or spiritual urge for the individual. and/or a need to develop faith or a deeper faith. look to surrounding cards to clarify further. temperance is about balancing things with love... the red wings of the archangel signify anger... so he is representative of having to balance the energies from within. these two are my birth cards. hope this helps.

Nevada	02 Nov 2003
Something in our local news recently presented what I view as a terrific illustration of the Justice card. The San Diego fires caused schools all over the county to be closed for days, so the impact on children here was great even if their homes weren't threatened or destroyed. In their time off from school, many felt a desire to do something, and felt a bit helpless. At a fund raising to provide money to Red Cross for local victims, many people brought their children, and the children were giving their own money--literally emptying their piggy banks. One mother who was interviewed said that a lot of homes in her neighborhood burned, but hers was spared. "So I thought the kids should learn about giving something back." Nevada34

Thirteen	02 Nov 2003
Reflecting on the Hierophant (and this may relate to Justice as well), it clarifies, I think, to view the Hierophant as opposed to the Emperor. The Emperor is the foundation of a civilization. In this, he is the one who lays down the practical laws. So, green means go, red means stop. And we all obey these laws knowing that there'd be traffic chaos if we didn't. The Emperor creates, enforces and adjusts the rules that allow us to live and work together and so support our society--be that a tribe, a village, a city, country or even a world. The Hierophant, on the other hand, is emblematic of rules that have nothing to do with making sure traffic runs smoothly, or making sure people are fed, housed and safe. Coming after the Emperor, the Hierophant is about the "laws" we create once we have a complex civilization. For an example: Marriage. The Emperor may say, "Only two people can be married to each other, no multiple marriages." And he may say this because it's easier to keep track of them legally, to decide who will make medical judgement calls if one spouse is in critical condition, and keep track of shared property and who owns it if one spouse dies. He might add that no one under a certain age can marry, but in the end, he really doesn't care who marries or why--just how many to keep things orderly. But the Hierophant DOES care who marries and why. He's going to tell a couple that marrige is serious and "not to be taken lightly," and he's going to create seemingly arbritrary rules, like: "Only a man and a woman can marry," or "You can't divorce," or "Holy men and women must remain unmarried." None of these rules have any practical use; they are moral/ethical judgements--and like many moral and ethical arguments, are often based upon spiritual beliefs and, thus, arguable. Justice is an interesting card because it deals with the Emperor's earthly law as well as the Hierophant's spiritual law. Pull the Justice card and you could just as easily be going to argue a traffic ticket for running a red light as discussing the legality of gay marriage. The important thing is that the JUDGE has to weigh all arguments. The Emperor says, "Your arguments don't matter. The law is the law, and you ran that red light!" The Hierophant says, "Your arguments for priests marrying are good, but my conscience will not let me favor that position or give you leave to do it." Justice alone says, "Let's weigh the arguments. Let's weigh the laws. Let's weigh the circumstances." Everything gets heard, everything gets weighed and a balanced judgement comes out of that. And Temperance, in the meantime, is trying to find a synthesis. "How about a yellow light for slow?" Temperance offers. Temperance doesn't want to take sides, doesn't want to argue morality or laws, Temperance wants an answer that mixes, merges and goes one better than either side. A "third" answer you might say; not a compromise, but something new and different.

PurpleSal	03 Nov 2003
Wow you guys are brilliant. THANK YOU!! Given me a lot to think about and made it a lot clearer too. I didn't have time to check this post before I was reading on Saturday and - just my luck- Hierophant kept popping up - almost on purpose I felt! But I found that a lot of the people I was reading for were students - new students as I was working round the corner from the University of London - and the Heirophant in it's Conformist meaning was relevant and correct. And I always saw Temperance as a balance card too - and it was influenced a lot by what was round it - it was next to the Devil on Saturday for one reading and I did feel it had a sexual meaning too... I am very grateful for everyone's input. It's been really interesting - and helpful Sal xx

Umbrae	03 Nov 2003
The Hierophant (or Pope) reminds us to: Follow the three R's: Respect for self, Respect for others and Responsibility for all your actions. Work to make a positive difference in our communities. Team building, builds stronger individuals. Have a vision, live the vision. Life is about balance. There is a conflict and distance between spirituality and materialism. This is the key to many of the difficulties in modern culture, and often underlies our everyday problems. The Hierophant urges us towards a balance, and to not yield to the illusions of ego, and pseudo-intellectualism. Nowadays the Hierophant is about knowledge attained through working and participating in groups and teams, as opposed to knowledge gained though conventional learning institutions, or the church. Indeed, we all learn more when interacting with others as opposed to solitary endeavors. This is a card of group action, especially when directed for a higher purpose. Moreover, mystery and wonder is to be shared, by works that improve the community - and thus, the world. It was the experience of mystery, sometimes mixed with fear that produced religion. You can travel into fantasy, or search the real world, seeking a place that resonates with mystery...but that place exists in your heart. Never lose your sense of wonder. If you do not believe in miracles, you will never experience one.

Major Tom	03 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The Hierophant (or Pope) reminds us to: Follow the three R's: Respect for self, Respect for others and Responsibility for all your actions. Work to make a positive difference in our communities. Team building, builds stronger individuals. Have a vision, live the vision. Thank you my friend. :) I believe. This is the essence of the High Priest. To get full value from the tarot, one of the things you have to believe is that tarot applies to you, personally. It's all about you. It is about responsibility and belief in responsibility. ;) Temperance is about integrating the positive and negative aspects of yourself to a higher purpose. Yes, it's also about your temperment. ;) This stuff certainly goes beyond divination people. :laugh:

Nevada	03 Nov 2003
I've had a problem with the Hierophant in the past, and used to look at it as a negative card. But I never really understood it. Then I got The Goddess Tarot, where it's renamed Tradition. Now I look at it as Tradition, but not in the simple sense of "we've always done it that way." It's a way of doing things that is tried and true. It's not meaningless clinging to old ways, but a way of living or doing that is still done the same way FOR A REASON. If you're new to a path (a profession, a spiritual path, a hobby, parenthood--or life) and you ignore these kinds of traditions, you're going to have a hard road. It's only a negative card in the sense that it's a warning--that there are certain standards that should not be ignored or flaunted, if you want to succeed. I probably saw it as negative because I was ignoring something I shouldn't. Nevada34

Mystic Zyl	04 Nov 2003
Laughing, the Heirophant is my least liked card; I am just a wild child! Yes, I agree with the previous posts in their meanings.

The Problems with The Heirophant and Temperance thread was originally posted on 31 Oct 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.