Who's more powerful?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kundalika	29 Oct 2003
Hi All, Who's more powerful? The Emperor, or the Magician? If you get one in the support position, and another in the obstacles position, do they cancel out each other? I always have a problem with these two cards, and Chariot. How do you rate them on a power scale? Please help!

Inana	29 Oct 2003
Hard to say... but my vote goes for the Emperor if we are only speaking about power. After all he is the one on charge. ...Ladies and Gentleman welcome to the Tarot show, tonight featuring the Magician vs The Emperor... GOOOOONG!! The Emperor stands up and enters the ring with a majestatic glance in his eyes. He is strong and persistent, will defend his territory until the end. His strategy is made about systematic work, organization, tradition, experience, will and the use of his material resources. The Magician is already in the ring thinking fast on how to approach the situation. He is faster and has an agile mind, but the Emperor has more experience. The Magician has to trick in order to win... He has to use intelligence, astuteness, communication habilities, innovation and creativity to overcome the obstacle. The Magician is faster than the Emperor, more adaptative and agile while the Emperor is stronger in his position and has more external support. Now you can start to place your bets...

Major Tom	29 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kundalika How do you rate them on a power scale? Please help! I have to admit I've struggled with this question. It's a very good question. It's just not the way I'd choose to look at it. }) I'd go so far as to say that all 22 of the major arcana have equal power. Any match would end in a draw. They don't struggle among each other, rather they work together.

lark	29 Oct 2003
The magician among other things is creative energy to me. I see the Emperor as a force that organizes and rules, he makes decisions and lays down the law. He is the stability in the world that allows creativity to take place. So they go hand in hand to me. One would be lost without the other.

Chronata	29 Oct 2003
Power is really a strange word. I agree with what has already been stated... I think all the Majors have Power. Emperor=Power of Authority, and Leadership. Power to Speak, Control,Conquer, and Direct. Magician=Power to Create. Power to Envision, Manifest, and Develop, Design, and Inspire. and also... Chariot=Power to Act. Power of Movement.

Thirteen	29 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kundalika Who's more powerful? The Emperor, or the Magician? Heh. What are they doing and where are they doing it? See that's the problem. Think about Darwin's old saw: "The fittest survive." Most folk mistakingly say, "The strongest survive" but that's not what Darwin said. The "Fittest." So, you've an elephant and a mouse. You'd say, Elephant is more powerful! Right? But if there's very little food, the Elephant, who needs to eat a lot, will die. The mouse, who need only eat a little, will live. The fittest survives. Same with the Emperor and the Magician. What are the circumstances? For the Emperor, always think of Teddy Roosevelt. Charismatic, but an absolute leader. Yes, his speeches can inspire and motivate, yes, he's an incandescent character--but in the end, what he tells you to do, you do! He leads, you follow. Most important, what comes out of his mouth is usually honest, straight forward, brutally truthful. He says what he thinks, he does what he feels ought to be done, he acts, acts, acts and moves, moves, moves! He's fittest for building Empires, leading armys (CHARGE!), organizing and overseeing a complete overhaul of a corrupt police squad. But he can also put his foot in his mouth, act without thinking, ruin good relationships or resist compromise. For the Magician, think of FDR. He tricks you into thinking he can stand when he really needs a wheelchair. He charms everyone with his words over the radio. He sells everyone with his winning ways and smiles. He comes up with idea after ideas for new programs, gives them clever names to make them appealing--and if one fails, he goes on to the next. He has a similar power, it seems, to get people working and doing, but it's through slight of hand, though speeches and words--not through charging up a hill. He's great at diplomacy and compromises--but not a strike-first-ask-questions-later actions. Thus, generally speaking, there are two, big differences between Magician and Emperor: 1) Focus: The Magican wants to do a successful trick (save the country from the depression). The Emperor wants to build a Kingdom (Make the USA into an Empire!). 2) Method: The Magician wants to convince people to do what he wants them to do. That's part of the fun, changing people's minds, making them realize that he's right, manipulating them like puppets. Besides, he loves the sound of his own voice. The Emperor wants to command and/or SHOW people what he wants them to do. He knows he's right, why should he have to convince anyone? They should know he's right as well--and if they don't, to hell with them. He's in charge, not them! And he really doesn't care if they change their minds or not, only that they do what he tells them! Which is the fittest? Depends on the enviornment.

Umbrae	29 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Heh. What are they doing and where are they doing it? See that's the problem. Think about Darwin's old saw: "The fittest survive." Most folk mistakingly say, "The strongest survive" but that's not what Darwin said. The "Fittest." So, you've an elephant and a mouse. You'd say, Elephant is more powerful! Right? But if there's very little food, the Elephant, who needs to eat a lot, will die. The mouse, who need only eat a little, will live. The fittest survives. …Which is the fittest? Depends on the environment. I was going to post. Then I read Thirteen’s post (I bow towards you once again). Ahh but what the heck…here goes… The lion survives by being a lion; the mouse survives by being a mouse. But they cannot change. You can be either the Magician, OR the Emperor. You can choose. Sometimes you want to be the Magician, sometimes the Emperor. But for just plain power? The Hierophant.

Indigo_lady	30 Oct 2003
The emperor already has the power, perhaps he has even inherited it The Magician has the potential to reach that power The way I see it, they are at two different stages in their path of development So the Magician has indeed the potential to become the Emperor, but it is up to him to decide whether he does it or not Personally I think though that the Magician, if worked properly, will have more strength than the Emperor The Chariot???? "The end justifies the means", as Machiavelli put it, I see the Chariot as the means, when you take control of the situation... Not so much as a power struggle

skytwig	30 Oct 2003
I thought the Majors were all different aspects of the Fool (thank you Diana :D )..... so they cannot be compared. Rather they must be integrated..... :)

Khatruman	30 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kundalika Who's more powerful? The Emperor, or the Magician? Isn't this kind of what we did in the schoolyard as kids? "Superman could lick Batman anyday!!" "Nahhh, Batman is too smart and would outwit him!" (scuffling and wrestling sounds are heard) The point was that Superman and Batman wouldn't contest each other. They became members of the Justice League and used their unique powers to complement each other.

Kundalika	30 Oct 2003
Inana, Major Tom, Diana, lark, Chronata, Thirteen, Umbrae. Thank you all for your views. What is interesting that the Emperor comes across as an administrator/bureaucrat and the Magician as an executive/communicator. Inana, the Emperor would never step into the ring. He would probably throw the Magician to the hungry lions in the ring:) A la Gladiator. Major Tom, when the Majors appear in conflicting positions, wouldn't their energies be in conflict? Diana, I agree with you about the Emperor's established power. But what about the infinite power that the Magician can draw from above. In my deck, the Emperor is crowned and holds a staff with a ram-head. He holds an object which looks like a human head in one hand. So he does seem to have the power of bestowing life and death. The Magician holds his (magic?) wand like a tool and has an infinity symbol over his head. He looks like he can do a lot with his wand, and the stuff that is spread out on the table (including a monkey). Both of them seem to be equally sinister individuals. lark, you can be creative irrespective of stability. Some of the best inventions we use today were first created in wartime. Quest for Survival often brings out the best in people. Some of the most inspiring people were once refugees (Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Nadia Comaneci). Is the Emperor powerful because without him there would be chaos, and we are afraid of chaos? Chronata, your keywords are helping:) I finally figured out the Chariot's power in this. Chariot is ordered by the Emperor to go forth. The Magician probably hypnotizes him into moving forth or hitches a ride. While the Chariot is powerful, it is also a vehicle for powerful people. Therefore subordinate to them. Thirteen, your interesting (and helpful) analogy probably is also reflected in the incumbent President and Bill Clinton. You say it "depends on the environment". That, I think, is the key. The situation we are reading for decides who will be more powerful, who will survive. Umbrae, I see Hierophant as someone above the petty powerplay. The Emperor, Magician, Chariot, Empress all seem to work on the physical plane. While the Hierophant and High Priestess seem to be from a higher, more surreal plane. My type of Hierophant person is Dalai Lama or the Pope. On a more day to day level, the local priest or school principal. Are you referring to the "moral and religious" power here? Like the crusades, where the "Emperor" types went to war for religion, egged on by the "Hierophants"?

Kundalika	30 Oct 2003
Indigo_lady, skytwig, Khatruman Thanks for your views:-) Indigo_lady and skywig, I appreciate your views. Yes the Emperor and Magician are a part of the same journey. But a situation could arise where they may be in conflict with each other. Khatruman, my question is a very sincere one, not a "mine's better than yours" thing at all. But like I said before there are spreads in which they appear in conflicting positions. I posed this question after encountering this situation. Thus its imperative for me to understand their respective spheres of power in order to read the cards properly. If they are at war, they are at war! Thanx for your views, I respect them. I do hope you respect my point of view.

Inana	30 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kundalika Inana, the Emperor would never step into the ring. He would probably throw the Magician to the hungry lions in the ring:) A la Gladiator. Mmmmmmmmh... probabily you are right here... -"Ave, Caesar, morituri te salutant" says the Magician while captivating the plebe with his hypnotic eyes. -"¡Spaniard!Spaniard!" shouts the crowd. Ok, ok I promise not to watch Gladiator again... Just a thought, I sometimes think the Magician acts like a young man while the Emperor acts like an older one. But he is still wearing his armour under the rich robes. Quote: What is interesting that the Emperor comes across as an administrator/bureaucrat and the Magician as an executive/communicator You mean in your reading? It makes sense in a certain way. The executive acts like a politician and thats definitively a job for the Magician. An administrator is more ruled by routine and organization. Or... the administrator needs to reasure his position while the executive needs more charisma and innovation.

tepia	30 Oct 2003
I'm pretty new at reading but... in a somewhat other interpretation to what everyone else was saying - and depending on the situation/question of the reading... I might interpret those two cards in those positions as someone - is not at the stage of their life or some project that they would like to be (they are at the beginning, but would like to be farther, or should be farther) - or maybe, that they thinking like an emporer, but are still at the magician level - Or mayby even that they should be acting more like an emporer, but are still thinking like a magician. In this way, it is not really about who is more powerful but about what is happening, and what needs to happen - about what strategy is most useful for this situation Also, to add my two cents - I don't treat all the major arcana as equally powerful. For example, I think the star is one of the weaker major cards. Tepia

skytwig	30 Oct 2003
OK, here's what I see when one of them is displayed as an obstacle (not really in conflict)..... I see that the obstacle is something that i am not integrating into the picture... I am creating the obstacle. For instance, if the Magician is blocking the Emperor, then i know i need to utilize my creativity and manifestation aspects of Self. If the Emperor blocks the Magician, then I am not taking a stand with my creativity, etc. Authority of some type is needed. I don't believe the Majors can ever be in conflict because they are all parts of the whole. Obstacles are created by me.... the cards let me know where, how to unblock them, and how to be more content, as a result. Hope that helps. :)

lark	30 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kundalika lark, you can be creative irrespective of stability. Some of the best inventions we use today were first created in wartime. Quest for Survival often brings out the best in people. Some of the most inspiring people were once refugees (Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Nadia Comaneci). Is the Emperor powerful because without him there would be chaos, and we are afraid of chaos? I am not debating weather great art and ideas can come out of chaos -- I know that they can. But I think you have confused 'necessity being the mother of invention' with my view of the Emperor and Magician. My view is that the Emperor fosters and promotes the kind of stable enviroment that is condusive to creativity, by the freedom from worry and want it affords. Who is more powerful then? The Emperor who creates this stable enviroment for the Magician to create in. Or the magician, with his ability to create, and his creations? As I said before I think they compliment each other. I do not see one card as canceling out another. In my way of reading one card enhances or detracts from another according to it's position in the spread, the question asked, and the meaning assigned to the spread position. I don't know what positions your cards were in (you weren't specific.) So as far as I can see there's no answer to your question. I hope you can respect my view. Nameste

Red Emma	30 Oct 2003
I see several scenarios in this situation...depending, of course, on the layout. But beyond that, thinking in modern urban terms and political realities: 1) The emporer makes the law. And as laws do, it makes some citizens more equal than others, or benefits some citiizens more than others. 2) Don't forget that the magician both walks between the worlds of realities, and uses his powers to knit them together. 3) If the magician feels the/a law is unfair, he can use his occult powers to make an end run, as it were. Do a little judicious knitting and purling here and there. 4) If the emporer is wise he will consult the magician as he creates law. In modern terms, get some feedback. Ah well, I guess I think more in plot lines than I should in this venue. I guess it's in my genes.

Kundalika	31 Oct 2003
....for contributing so much to this thread:) While I cannot claim that my dilemma has been resolved, atleast I have a better understanding of thing as they stand. Thanx Inana, lark, skytwig, tepia, Red Emma. lark, I fully appreciate and respect your views:) Namaste.

The Who's more powerful? thread was originally posted on 29 Oct 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.