elements to card suites

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

ashgate	02 Nov 2003
Iwas reading a post on ways to memorize the cards,and came accros a post by joya250 in there reply they used a system of Kings to fire ,queens to warter ,knights to air,pages to earth. So from that Queen of wands warter in fire.ect. I have come acros this before,and think that we should take a more plain look at this.A- sugestion-,King of cups male aspect of warter,King of wands male side of fire,and so on.Queen of cups femail side to warter, Queen of wands femail side of fire. I think we should keep the respective courts within there own elements as sugested,open to all ideas .

firemaiden	02 Nov 2003
There are many different systems of attributions but the one you just mentioned is the one that I like and use. I learned it from the Book of Thoth by Aleister Crowley. Translating his system to other decks gets tricky and confusing though, because in the Thoth deck, the highest card (normally King) is called "Knight", and the lower male court (normally Knight) is called "Prince". Crowley: Knights (Kings) = Fire Queens (Queens) = Cups Princes (Knights) = Air Princesses (Pages) = Earth. and Wands = Fire Cups = Water Swords = Air Disks (Pentacles) = Earth So, in the Thoth deck, King of Wands = fire of fire Queen of Cups = water of water Prince of Swords = air of air Princess of Disks = earth of earth -- making these four court cards the most characteristic, or purist elements of their suit. I really love this system, because it gives a good way to differentiate between each persona in the suit. For example, the difference between the two Wands Women, is that the Queen of Wands is water in fire, but the Princess of Wands is earth in fire. So the princess is actually the more combustible of the two. (For some hilarious fun, read the Book of Thoth on line, Crowley's character descriptions for each of the courts is priceless.) .... your suggestion is a very interesting one and worth exploring. Perhaps you could give us a little bit of a description on how you would see "male side of fire" and "female side of fire" as different. Then there are of course two more fire courts to consider. So how might you define those?

Moongold	02 Nov 2003
Greetings, This is quite a common system, used outside of Thoth as well. The system I am more familiar with ascribes particular aspects to the role, however, although gender is often implicit and it is difficult to break away from the social constructions of gender. For example: Kings are outward, left-brain characters or activities. Crowley was a male of course and he was inevitably influenced by the idea that Kings have a particular kind of wisdom that is more than just left-brain. Peopel with authority in any role can be can be Kings even in the household I guess. And then the Kings have the characteristics of their suit. King Wands would be responsible for directing energy, keeping it flowing. A football coach might be good King Wands or a small business man, King Cups would be good at directing love, inspiration and emotion. King Swords would have the responsibility of directing thoughts and ideas - a University Department Head perhaps, a chief scientist, even a teacher? And King Pentacles - He would direct and harness the money or the other resources. This is the King I like the most :) He is the happiest of Kings normally but that is personal opinion. And the Queens? The Queens are real doers. They hold executive power rather than simply sitting on their thrones. Hilary Clinton was a good example of a Queen SWords I think. The Queens are also supposed to hold the instinctive, feeling and understanding role whilst KIngs have more the " I am wise and rational" kind of role. Princes have jobs to do and they act as ambassadors, mediators. They're mobile, fit and highly active. They go on quests and fall in love with Princesses and village maidens . Princesses have jobs to do as well. They have lots of youthful energy and audacity but they work on a more mundane level than their queenly mothers or princely brothers.

ashgate	02 Nov 2003
Thank you for the replies Firemaiden & moongold ,I shall have a quite walk on the moors to reflect,& get back asp. Its not allways easy to put insights into words,but will try. still open to new input...

jmd	02 Nov 2003
Welcome to Aeclectic, ashgate. Two wonderful replies have already been made, so am not going to repeat anything here. Personally, I really like your suggestion in viewing each of the elements in their masculine and feminine aspects with regards to the suits. It is worth noting that the suits, however, are not consistently assigned an element. To give one example I occasionally repeat, Swords has been linked, in various decks, clearly to Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. Whichever you choose may be partly determined by the deck(s) you are working with - a Marseille type would of course leave you free to decide. Considering the masculine aspect of Water, as opposed to the feminine one, how would this be described? Is part of the aspect considered its active and its receptive components (which is the way I personally tend to view them)? How would, then, the 'lower' court cards (Knights and Pages) be viewed? Could they be differentiated in terms of whether the element's force or form is in formation or already accomplished? I am only posting these as questions to be further considered. I personally have no fixed views on these with regards to the Courts... It is wonderful to have different ideas and insights for further reflection. Thank you :)

firemaiden	03 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ashgate ...I shall have a quite walk on the moors to reflect... Ahh! a walk on the moors! That sounds so romantic. I am sure many mysterious ideas will come to you, ashgate, I look forward to hearing the voice of the moors!

ashgate	04 Nov 2003
Thanks for the replys,after a not so long walk on the moors I shall try and describe my feelings on this.Iwill take the suite of fire,or staves as an approach. For a moment let us look at some basics,if I said fire =anger,passion,emotional warmth,love, energy,joy,exercise,am I describing a man or women? I belive both,you do not need to bring in an extra element. Take these words,playing,biking,surfing,hicking. Young men and women doing there thing.This is the FIRE ELMENT expressing its self in and through human nature ,this is the active and passive,the warm and gentle,aggressive forceful, being expresed in men and women, young or old. Yes you can say if a person is moody,then there warter element is to still, cold, ect,. but you could say they are lacking fire.I believe we could end up sounding like Taoist doctors if we go down this road.So lets keep the suites pure.... Open to ideas Ashgate

The elements to card suites thread was originally posted on 02 Nov 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.