Four of Discs.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

gloria	11 Nov 2003
The 4/Discs has long been a problem for me (reading wise.) I couldn’t quite get to grips with this kind of short, squat little fella. The books suggested he could be a bit of a miser, hanging on to his money, and he sure does look like that. I mean look, he even has money on the brain so to speak. And the way he clasps that disc to his chest. The soles of the feet are supposed to tell all about our bodies, so what are the discs telling us here? I have only recently realised that this guy is actually sitting down. But on what? Whatever it is he doesn’t look comfortable. I don’t know if anyone else feels the same, but I get the feeling he could very well be in a wheelchair. A disablement of some kind. Being incapacitated in some way, (broken limb?) (slipped disc?) I did a reading a couple of years ago, and the guy signified by this card had lost a leg. But I didn’t give that any more thought until now. What is this guy hanging on to other than money? Could it be dignity? The brain, heart, and soles of the feet. Are these areas being depicted by discs showing us that disablement doesn’t mean being devoid of thoughts, emotions and feelings? Does anyone have any ideas on this theme? Gloria.

Star Spirit	11 Nov 2003
Well...I normally see this card as the miser like you said, but he could be losing anything really, not just money. This is the person who is afraid to let go of anything, afraid to share. Perhaps in the case you were describing, the man had already lost, and was afraid of sharing his feelings? Just sort of clinging to his loss, not being able to get past it, not being able to overcome it and move on and be grateful for what he still has (not that I would blame him). It could definitely mean that he is trying to hold onto his dignity by not admitting his true feelings and/or that something was wrong.

lunalafey	11 Nov 2003
think of it this way- hanging on (protectivly) to what you have- physically with out certain physical abilities, one holds on to what they do have for there might not be the ability to bring around more like in the past. Losing a leg or an eye might make some feel that they cannot be as productive as when they where whole. disc are Earth, the material, the physical- possestions, money & work.

skytwig	11 Nov 2003
Fear of moving forward..... holding onto the present too tightly.... fear of losing what one has in the risk of moving forward.... counting our pennies, which is a state of being overly involved in where one is, rather than looking up to continue moving..... Sometimes, we just get overwhelmed and we 'sit down' on the path.... It's interesting that the 4 of swords encourages a time of rest and meditation.... I think when we see fear, such as the 4P, then it might be a good time to meditate, recharge, and ground..... Being overwhelmed is a call to rest......

firemaiden	11 Nov 2003
In addition to the holding on to money aspect, it makes me think of stability, (the square) - financial stability, responsiblity, a stable foundation, good things...

skytwig	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden In addition to the holding on to money aspect, it makes me think of stability, (the square) - financial stability, responsiblity, a stable foundation, good things... And that is just how the 4P card appears in the Thoth Deck... looking down on a castle.....

lark	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden In addition to the holding on to money aspect, it makes me think of stability, (the square) - financial stability, responsiblity, a stable foundation, good things... I to see it as a deep rooted stability and financial security. That card says to me, hey, I've worked hard for this money, retirement benefit, house, savings plan ect. and I'm going to do what i want to with it. For some that may indicate possessiveness or selfishness. But for others it may just stem from a fear of not being able to be independant. They take pride in taking care of themselves and meeting all of their needs without asking for help. They carefully planned it that way. And they hold on tight to what they have so they don't upset their well organized apple cart. Lest it should put them in a situation where they might need to ask for help from someone else. There are two things the 4 of coins fears, the humiliation of asking for help, and the feeling of being a burden to another. This is of course just how I see the card and I just wanted to share. Namaste

jmd	11 Nov 2003
This is such a wonderful example of how scenic depictions may both assist readings, but also colour the very way in which the four of disks/coins can be perceived. I have attached the Hadar rendition of this card for those who do not have a Marseilles type deck. Given that I often begin with a key-word for both the suit and the number of implements, I'll give those first. They mimic, in many ways, what firemaiden has already written. The suit, being one of Coins, may indicate financial matters. Linked to the element of Earth (remember that this is but one of the four suits with which Coins has been linked), it may signify anything connected to the physical realm, including the health of one's body. The four I often take as stability. Being four, however, it also tends to indicate either tetractys or tetrahedron... the latter being the simplest regular solid (a three-sided pyramid), and extremely stable. From this shape all other platonic solids may arise. From a solid physical foundation, then, other forms may emerge. If one looks at the card (and all Marseille decks worthy of the name will have this), the four already embraces, and shields (in the centre) the next card, the five. Here, not only stability, but the womb of movement. The shield itself, in the Hadar, has five flowers, only four of which are in bloom - mimicking the card as a whole, for the fifth is about ready to emerge. Again, surrounding the shield are four main flowers, but a fifth, without its surrounding (blue) petals, hangs exactly above. In any reading, this card may show quite a variety of things. This year, it indicated something quite unexpected: I was preparing to give a workshop in another town (Bendigo), and had to decide which car to take (either a four-door or a two-door). As I couldn't make up my mind, I pulled out a card - bringing this one. I saw it as four wheels and four doors... and the central 'shield' as the car's engine. I decided to take the four door. I thought I'd also take another card out for the two door, and XIII dropped out. There, I saw it as the scythe causing problems to the mechanical parts. We took the four door. On our return, the two-door quickly developed some mechanical problems which would have caused us to be stranded had we taken it. I bring this, as it was the first and only time, in a number of decades of working with cards, that the four of Coins showed itself as a four-wheeled, four-doored vehicle. Generally, however, I would re-iterate what the card may signify, stability in the financial and physical realms, allowing for other possibilities to arise or emerge.

moggy	11 Nov 2003
Hi Gloria.. I liked your story about the 4x4. Interesting insight! For me, a lot of this card is less about being a miser, more so an indication of the need/urge to maintain control..over money, physical possessions, etc. Hanging on to what you've got, for better or for worse, stopping the natural flow between things..

skytwig	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd This is such a wonderful example of how scenic depictions may both assist readings, but also colour the very way in which the four of disks/coins can be perceived. The four I often take as stability. Being four, however, it also tends to indicate either tetractys or tetrahedron... the latter being the simplest regular solid (a three-sided pyramid), and extremely stable. From this shape all other platonic solids may arise. From a solid physical foundation, then, other forms may emerge. If one looks at the card (and all Marseille decks worthy of the name will have this), the four already embraces, and shields (in the centre) the next card, the five. Here, not only stability, but the womb of movement. The shield itself, in the Hadar, has five flowers, only four of which are in bloom - mimicking the card as a whole, for the fifth is about ready to emerge. Sometimes I think the pictures are misleading.... giving us too much opinion of the artist..... the simplicity of the Marseilles is soooo wonderful..... I loved your illustration of the car.... wow.... 4 IS such a solid number.... 4 legs on a table, 4 corners of a house, 4 directions... building something, hoping for more.... movement toward the 5, 6, 7 and on.... the first REAL fruits of growth.....

firemaiden	12 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd I bring this, as it was the first and only time, in a number of decades of working with cards, that the four of Coins showed itself as a four-wheeled, four-doored vehicle. This is fantastic, jmd, and illustrates, for me, what is one of the most magical aspects of the cards, when they suddenly say something so concrete- I liken it to that uncanny moment where the arf-ed syllables of a dog's barking, appear to assemble themselves into english words. (dog...uncanny... get it?) It echoes something that went through my mind as I typed my earlier entry -- after all it is four coins - four circles in a square, circling the square...hmmm. As for the oft-cited RWS interpretation of the card as a "miser" -- it is such a very negative view of the four of coins, it makes more sense as a reversed meaning, than an upright one...

Major Tom	12 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden It echoes something that went through my mind as I typed my earlier entry -- after all it is four coins - four circles in a square, circling the square...hmmm. Thank you for this Jmd. :) Loved your interpretation and especially your description of the process. Having grown up learning the minors from Mr. Waite's book, I feel compelled to rise in defence. :laugh: The pictures on the card help the student begin. Pictorial representations tend to aid the intuition. You can go with what calls you in the picture and the reading will work. Nonetheless, I always give my students the key word for the suit and number. I'm sure I've picked these keywords up around the boards. ;) 4 = stability, structure, solid, strong, rational, square Earth = the physical, money, job, health So the 4 of Coins is about something that has a solid basis in, or connection to, physical reality. One wonders if the picture from the RWS wasn't in some way a comment on the gentry in Edwardian Britian? })

firemaiden	12 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Here, not only stability, [/i] The shield itself, in the Hadar, has five flowers, only four of which are in bloom - mimicking the card as a whole, for the fifth is about ready to emerge. Oh, Jean-Michel, this is exciting, you've just clarified why Margarete Petersen includes a snake on her Four of Coins. The snake - a circle in the square -- a "symbol of calm and flexibility, lies within telescoping chinese boxes. The boxes are the structure which gives form to burgeoning ideas by limiting space. "Through the snake" she writes, "the numbness/rigidity (die Starre), born of immobility, will be overcome." She always manages to somehow tie all the main tarot traditions together, so I undestand now -- her snake, coiled up within the womb of boxes as though ready to be born, illustrates the pending emergence of that fifth flower... See my thread Four of coins - Vier der Münzen

gloria	12 Nov 2003
It’s great to come on here and find all these responses. Thanks. I do feel though after my staring and scrutinising this little fella, (he must have a complex by now!) I have to go along with him signifying the stability of the ‘four’ but only in as much as the stability leaning heavily on material comforts and personal security. Isabel Kliegman sees this guy as having separated his feet from the holy ground with things, acquisitions? A pentacle is blocking his crown chakra , nothing can get through. His heart chakra is covered, nothing can touch his heart, and he can express no feeling. He has isolated himself with the things he has collected or stored. The absence of expression and feeling brings me back to the fleeting impression I got of this card relating to a disability of some kind. But none of you guys have worded your opinion here in that respect. The bottom line is with all the security and comfort he has, it sure hasn’t put a smile on his face. Great posts, much for me to ruminate, Gloria.

gloria	12 Nov 2003
JMD, Like Firemaiden I too am excited. (you obviously have this effect on women!) :) I hadn’t realised before that there were symbols to be read on the non-picture cards. Your interpretation of the 4/Discs emerging from something that looks totally insignificant at first glance is wonderful stuff! Is there a link where I can view the Hadar deck? Thanks. G.

jmd	13 Nov 2003
Thanks Gloria... :) the Hadar will soon be added to the Aeclectic site. In the meantime, many of the cards may be seen on Kris Hadar's site. Choose the language you prefer, then, under Tarology, click the 'A history' link. Within the text are many of the cards - and the text is also worth reading. Unfortunately, of course, the minor arcana is not there to be seen... The Fournier Marseilles, however, has all 78 cards to be viewed at Tarot.com... In addition, the Schaffhouse is also there. Comparing the pips of the minor is a wonderful exercise :)

firemaiden	13 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by gloria JMD, Like Firemaiden I too am excited. (you obviously have this effect on women!) Shhh, Gloria, don't tell him!

gloria	13 Nov 2003
Thanks for links JMD. Firemaiden......my lips are sealed. ;)

gloria	13 Nov 2003
JMD, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Kris Hadar site, it's fantastic! I never thought I would stray from RW, but hey, there you go. The funny thing is, I went to look something up this morning, in a book I've had for years, the very first book on Tarot I'd bought in fact. And what do you think, the deck illustrated is the Marseille. I can't believe I haven't taken notice of this before. Maybe because the interest wasn't there then. Has this opened up a whole new world for me? I hope so. Many thanks, Gloria.

ros	13 Nov 2003
I sometimes use this as a smothering card telling that someone or something is being smothered. Also "what we control ends up controlling us" I see it also as not wanting change. Just leave everything as it is. "What are you clinging to?" Nothing can move because of the tightness of this card or the contoll that is taking place. Just some of my ideas!

Diana	13 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden As for the oft-cited RWS interpretation of the card as a "miser" -- it is such a very negative view of the four of coins, it makes more sense as a reversed meaning, than an upright one... This is the case with most of the Rider Waite cards (with a few exceptions). They either show the so-called "positive" meaning, or the so-called "negative" meaning and then that one sticks in people's minds and it is nigh impossible then to see the other aspect(s) of the card.

skytwig	13 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana This is the case with most of the Rider Waite cards (with a few exceptions). They either show the so-called "positive" meaning, or the so-called "negative" meaning and then that one sticks in people's minds and it is nigh impossible then to see the other aspect(s) of the card. Gloria.... see, your question has opened so many doors for you.... as has been pointed out, the RWS tends to tell us how and what to think... which, personally, really irks me..... The Marseilles is so elusive, it is stumulating.... does that make sense? When it comes to intuition and reading, I think it does..... :D

gloria	14 Nov 2003
You are so right Skytwig, my post has pointed me in another direction, or shall we say has shown me that there is indeed life after RW. But you know I don’t go along with the ‘book interpretations’ as such. They give a general idea as to a card’s meaning, and that’s great when you first start out, but the wonderful thing is, after a while intuition takes over. But I’ve also learned to delve deeper into individual cards. The history, the symbols and their meanings, the mythological aspects, these throw up a wealth of information. Hands over the reins to the mind if you like. It is exciting stuff. But hey, I don’t have to convince you lot of that do I? :) Gloria.

The Four of Discs. thread was originally posted on 11 Nov 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.