Nine of Wands - Wall?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	20 Nov 2003
Looking at the Nine of Wands, a card I have never entirely understood, various image-associations have at different times had their way with me... of sprouting wand-fence, and bird-cage stripes, of prison bars and proud corn rows... yet today it was another; today I read WALL... Wall -- as in border, frontier, limit, stopping point,obstacle, thing to jump over to get to the Other Side, and yet, also by the same token -- protection and defense. What does it protect us from? What is on the other side? Is it a wall between worlds, a wall between seeing and not seeing, maybe... and ... is there a door? ? Where and what are those famous Doors of Perception, why do we need to be protected? What are the rewards of climbing over... Will the guard let us through? Why is he not a dog with three-heads?... and what is his relation to IX ???

Thirteen	20 Nov 2003
I never read the guard as protecting the wall from US (and how do we get past him?), so much as WE as guard protecting the wall against others. In this regard, you can view the 9/Wands as a fortress under seige. This is OUR fort, the one WE built, and we've kept it standing inspite of all enemies trying to tear it down. This is the last stand. If we (the guard, the wall) can hold out, not fall, we'll have won. 9/Wands is "almost there." It might not feel that way, however, to the querent. Often you don't know that the last stand is the "last"--you feel, "Here we go again! I'm SO darn tired!" and you want to give up. 9/Wands tells us, hang in there, keep the wall standing--this is the last time. Or, if you want, you can also see it as the last wall to climb over--or the final guard that needs convincing--as in the old myths were the hero goes through door after door, convincing each guard along the way. This is the last one--once you're past this one, your IN!

skytwig	20 Nov 2003
Psychological walls fascinate me... they tend to be fortresses. They can withstand jack hammers, bombs, and akido...... What i have learned to do with walls is leave them alone!!!! Do something else, find a way around them, learn to live with them, respect them. This doesn't make sense until one expends incredible energy trying to take one down....... Imagine a wall that is MILES thick and you might imagine my frustration..... And maybe that is the wisdom of the 9..... not much work after 9.... maybe the work of 9 is awesome RESPECT...... ACCEPTANCE...... HUMILITY..... hmmmmmmmm....... Also, for many, walls are BOUNDARIES...... and thank goodness for such phenomenal preservers!!

firemaiden	20 Nov 2003
...well, this one isn't very thick is it, really? just a few sticks... but you are right, if it is a psychological wall, then, perhaps leave it alone. But what if it is the last hurdle, as thirteen says, the final frontier, to success? How to transcend it?

skytwig	20 Nov 2003
Maybe in accepting the wall as 'necessary' or immovable... the wall is transcended...... Acceptance is very transforming in and of itself...... if we accept the wall, we will not be focusing on the wall with all of our energy and intent...... we will begin to look around, we may see another way or another path or another insight........ Wow, firemaiden, i'm talking to myself just as much as to you..... there is much truth here....... thanks :)

firemaiden	20 Nov 2003
...it is a much beleaguered wall, isn't it...

Thirteen	20 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden But what if it is the last hurdle, as thirteen says, the final frontier, to success? How to transcend it? I think the message here is perseverence, hanging in there. This is a critical moment. It's easy to stay with things when they're fresh and new and so is your passion, or when things are going well, or when you feel strong. But what about when you're battered and barely standing like our guard there? What about when you're the only one there--like our guard? These are the times that try men's souls? The question is, I think, less about finding a way around the wall, less about insights or humility--there are other cards that emphasize all that. This card is a wands card, and that means it's about SPIRIT. Energy and passion, courage and faith. Rather like England during the blitz. I think this card says, "Have faith. Have courage. Don't surrender." I'm oddly reminded of the 2nd LORD OF THE RINGS movie, THE TWO TOWERS, now out on extended DVD. At Helm's Deep, the door is broken down, the wall breeched, and those holding the fort aren't in the best of shape against the overwhelming odds of the enemy. But they rally all the same for one last charge! The message: You have to try and, if need be, go down fighting. If you lose, you lose--but if you hold out, hold tight to your faith and your courage--as the guard holds to that one wand there, leaning on it, using it for support and to keep him standing...if you do that you might just win.

skytwig	20 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I think the message here is perseverence, hanging in there. This is a critical moment. ......This card is a wands card, and that means it's about SPIRIT. Energy and passion, courage and faith. Rather like England during the blitz. ...... I think this card says, "Have faith. Have courage. Don't surrender." I think of my mother, just 16, living in London during the blitz. She went to work one day and the buidling was gone. She was sitting by a window, another day, and a bomb floated by..... My Uncle was a passivist and was relegated to the work of rescue and retrival...... heart wrenching work..... That IS what the 9 of wands FEELS like.... totally worn out, night after night, continual tragedy....... So, if I were to look at a place such as that, the Tower fully and expansively real in my life, I would not give up...... but that would be all the fight i would have left....... sometimes, all we can do, spiritually, is HOPE...... I think there are times when we cannot fight anymore.... we have not necessarily surrendered, but we see the immensity of what is before us...... that is why I keep referring to ACCEPTANCE..... it is not surrender..... it is simply reality.... it is simply saying, well, that is what it is..... So Faith, yes, Courage (to hang on, not to fight)...... I think it is that undying BELIEF in what we have passion for..... that is the underlying energy of the 9 wands.......

ros	20 Nov 2003
could the wall be of past mistakes. could it be the past that "what does not kills us makes us strong" I see the wall as behind the person, so it would be support from past lessons. With one wand in his hand, that is enough energy to carry & move on. Leaving a wall of hurt (past hurts) & moving on. Just and idea.

Major Tom	21 Nov 2003
The 9 of Wands can, like most cards, be looked at more than one way. I usually interpret it as 'duty'. It can be one's own wall - you are manning your own final barracades, meeting one last attack or test before moving to the next cycle. Call it your duty to yourself. ;) It can be another person's wall. If another's you might be tempted to attack it. I like what Skytwig said about staying away or leaving alone other people's boundaries. Everyone has a place to retreat. You could call it the duty to respect. :)

firemaiden	21 Nov 2003
So Tom, no bribing the sentry at the gate? No traveling to the Other Side?? No Doors of Perception way of seeing it?

skytwig	21 Nov 2003
I use the Thoth and the 9 wands are labled Strength. The 10 ands are Oppression, which I don't agree with, but that could change...... I need to look at the Marseilles cards, which I don't have..... In the Thoth 9 wands, the main wand has a Sun at one end and a quarter moon at the other end. The 8 wands behind it form a gridwork...... it could be a wall..... In the 10, the wands seem to have fire on them and there are 2 wands in the front.... no sun or moon in this pic, these 2 wands have sharp, dagger points at one end and cute little faces at the other end ...... It looks like a threat.... yet, there is fire behind the image...... in the 9, there is something like small red lightening behind the wands...... To me the 10 may indicate utilization of the fortress energy in a positive way.... it has to be a fulfillment of some sort because it is a 10 card (for me)..... it is a recycling, as it is a 1 and another beginning? It refers to the WHEEL......., the wheel being a cycle of wands, essentially (the spokes).

Umbrae	21 Nov 2003
Transcend…yes. And then there are some walls have have to come down. It’s tiresome work, very much like a duty – you have to bring it down – and like duty there is an acceptance of the toil for the promise of endings, betterment, and change. It all bestows transcendence… Break time’s over, I gotta wall to tear down…

Inana	22 Nov 2003
Wall or not, i agree is a card about endurance. More than duty... Is nice to see this thread im getting alot this card lately. Is about resistance but in a passive way, so if we are speaking about walls to defend or trascend, just want to point that in nine of wands WE are the wall. Have been comparing it with seven wands cause always find resemblance between those cards. I've decided seven is about one making the first move and nine is standing an mantaining ones position, no matter how hard it is, you stand up again and again and again. Probabily nothing new for most of you but has been of use to me.

ros	22 Nov 2003
How about with the one energy in his had he has enough energy to overcome the wall if he goes about it one wand at a time. He has learned from the past and now can tackle this wall one step at a time. He is break it down one by one & he is prepared when the time is right.

Thirteen	22 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Inana Have been comparing it with seven wands cause always find resemblance between those cards. I've decided seven is about one making the first move and nine is standing an mantaining ones position, no matter how hard it is, you stand up again and again and again. A really good comparison. It's also interesting that in 7wands, the man is being attacked, while in 9wands, the man is waiting for an attack. There's an implication that 9wands is more prepared, more used to this. There's a "stand up for yourself!" element in 7wands, where 9wands is more "stand up for what you've built!" Also, in 9wands there is more protection (more wands) but also more at stake (more wands to lose). In 7wands, the man fiercely defends HIS wand against six others. I tend to believe that the guy in 7wands won and took the other six wands--now he's got them up to nine. Which presents an interesting turn around (and likely "reversed") meaning--that we may be holding on too hard. In 7wands, we might be too aggressive, too obsessed with our one wand (read: idea, philosophy or belief system). We may not be listening to others and so creating arguments. In 9wand, we might have put too much of ourselves into building up and maintaining this wall. We could be exhausted and not thinking straight, seeing enemies when there are none. And this might fit most aptly to that wall metaphor. Wands can stand for fanaticism--blind passion for something. A wall that refuses to allow in any new or alternative ideas for fear that they will bring down everything (rather like the Tower). So we exhaustively guard our wall--which, afterall, should be strong enough on its own to stand, or else deserves to fall.

skytwig	22 Nov 2003
For me, the fascination has been with non mental walls; walls that are deeply psychological and, therefore, seemingly illogical, ......walls that come into being through trauma or difficult childhood or even brain dysfunction..... not all walls are movable. I used to think i had the ability to remove walls within myself, but now, after much experience with my own, I have a healthy respect for their solidity and elusiveness.... To remove such walls can be debilitating.... some walls keep us sane..... e.g. amnesia, some phobias, PTSD...... I had to learn that some of my quirks, which I considered walls, objectionable walls, were important and valuable in their own right..... that some walls need to be respected as entities of worth, whether I agree with its existence or not..... In other words, there may be times when the 9 wands are telling us or our 'client' NOT to attempt to tear a wall down.... it may simply be pointing out a reality.......

firemaiden	23 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig there may be times when the 9 wands are telling us or our 'client' NOT to attempt to tear a wall down.... it may simply be pointing out a reality....... That's when we need to distinguish between wall as obstacle and wall as protection. Sometimes the protective wall becomes an obstacle later on, built for protection, and outliving its purpose which we need to either scale, blow up, throw off, tunnel under or find a door in. I pulled the nine of wands once in a dream interpretation spread -- it was a dream of a caged bird transforming into a little woman and flying out of the cage. I had a shock as I turned over the card - its row of upright wands and the sentry pulling one wand aside (Spiral Deck) looked just like the wires of the birdcage! If we are to agree with Crowley who writes that every idea contains its own reversal/opposite, then the idea of wall, obstacle also contains the idea of door/escape.

jmd	23 Nov 2003
I have only read firemaiden's opening (and last) post - and rather quickly - and thought I would comment on the Nine Wands before properly reading through the thread, as I am sure that the images from either RWCS or C/H Thoth have been commented on. Recently (as in the last couple of days), this card too has come up for a couple of readings I did in order to gain insight into a work-related situation. The deck used was the Schaffhouse 'Classic', which, though a little different to the Marseilles, has a similar enough central structure for my comments to follow as per the Marseille. If one notices the way in which the eight Wands from the previous card in the series unfolds, it is as if the two flowers have become single Wand... yet a peculiarity is there, for the central wand seems to warp out of space behind the lattice-work in the centre of the card. It is as if the main impulse of energy, provided by this central wand, permits the abundance of resources to bear fruit: the flower has given way to the kernel which will permit the next stage to emerge. Yet this arises from the central weaving of abundance - a lattice work which assists in deeming the structure to be complete... whatever be the structure. _____ In the somewhat dissimilar but Marseille oriented Angel Tarot, the central staff takes on a proportion all its own, seemingly penetrating the plant-womb surrounding it. Again, seemingly indicating that here the kernel will take root. ______ A quite different depiction is found in the Spanish Esoterico, in which the Lamp of Knowledge, contained within the 'walls' of matter, is either lit by, or ignites the flame of spiritual humanity within the upper pentagramme... ______ .... now to read the other posts :)

firemaiden	23 Nov 2003
Yes, yes, yes!!! it is transcending the wall and entering the time-space warp!!!

Inana	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden That's when we need to distinguish between wall as obstacle and wall as protection . Sometimes the protective wall becomes an obstacle later on, built for protection, and outliving its purpose which we need to either scale, blow up, throw off, tunnel under or find a door in. This and other meanings Im reading here, remind me about The Tower. Just wanted to comment.

skytwig	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd If one notices the way in which the eight Wands from the previous card in the series unfolds, it is as if the two flowers have become single Wand... yet a peculiarity is there, for the central wand seems to warp out of space behind the lattice-work in the centre of the card. It is as if the main impulse of energy, provided by this central wand, permits the abundance of resources to bear fruit: the flower has given way to the kernel which will permit the next stage to emerge. Yet this arises from the central weaving of abundance - a lattice work which assists in deeming the structure to be complete... whatever be the structure. I think it is interesting to note that the 10 wands are not 2 groups of 5 wands, as has been the standard, odd/even display of wands in the previous cards....... I get the sense that this supports the idea that sometimes, the wall of 9 must be lived with in 10...... that it becomes a part of our structure!! We tend to think walls are bad, we tend to be quite spiritually judgemental...... we being the modern new agey type thinker........ we look down upon illness and bumps and bruises as a kind of deficiency, rather than look at them as tribal scars and rankings of experience....... Could not the 10 wands be telling us that that wall can actually be a SHIELD that we have earned through all the hard stuff we've been through???? That, at least, is how I view my emotional scars...... :)

firemaiden	24 Nov 2003
Skytwig the shield and protection aspect is there too in the idea of wall, of course. But what I personally wanted to focus on with this card was less the psychological significance of wall - as in scar/shield/armor/protection, but the spriritual and poetic sense of the frontier and door between worlds ... which noone else seems to be little interested in... grr grr grr. *firemaiden eats worms*

skytwig	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden what I personally wanted to focus on with this card was .... the spriritual and poetic sense of the frontier and door between worlds ... which noone else seems to be little interested in... grr grr grr. *firemaiden eats worms* "Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!" that's the sound of the little wormies screaming. (Have you read James and the Giant Peach, firemaiden..... it tends to change one's perspective of buggies forever...... :) ) Anyway, that is a grand idea, firemaiden........ yes, between worlds..... yes...... the wall can be a door because it has structure. Interestingly, I would still utilize very similar techniques..... embracing the wall, not fighting it, loving the wall, even..... I think of Harry at the train station, just slipping through the brick wall and I see us slipping into another realm, another world, another reality...... When we fight the wall, it becomes HARD!!! when we believe that anything is possible, then it can be whatever we need it to be!!!!!!! :D (this is fun) (skytwig gently pulls a wormy away from the jaws of annihilation..... there, there, Fred, you're ok..... his name is Fred.... father of 6..... )

firemaiden	24 Nov 2003
Pthew! Pthth BLECH *firemaiden spits out chewed worm family* Yes, Skytwig, of course I've read James and the Giant Peach, only about one million times! Along with all the other Roald Dahl.. I love the Harry Potter train station analogy. Very much indeed!!

skytwig	24 Nov 2003
So, let's get really into this shift between worlds here and look at wands as WANDS with crystals and wrapped metal and INTENT..... What we see is a build up of energy that is pleading to have something done with it..... we see that this energy is begging us to see beyond the circumstances of everyday, ho hum, life and look beyond the Veil........ The energy of the 9 is sooooo big, that we can READ it! It is telling us HOW to shift through that Veil, how to become one with it, rather than fight it or fear it...... We are one with that energy, it is a part of us..... it can be soft or it can be hard.... it is all about PERCEPTION...... and....... BELIEF!!! Wands are magickal tools that help us practice INTENT.... wishes, dreams, creation...... all part of that veil, all part of that shift..... shifting between worlds, after all, is just a blink away........ Where do we put our energy? how do we utilize it? How is our energy held/contained,,,,, even limited, by our BELIEFS and our INTENTS? (Fred, the wormie, thanks you..... wants to know if you would like to join him in a spot of tea?)

Major Tom	25 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig We are one with that energy, it is a part of us..... it can be soft or it can be hard.... it is all about PERCEPTION...... and....... BELIEF!!! Where do we put our energy? how do we utilize it? How is our energy held/contained,,,,, even limited, by our BELIEFS and our INTENTS? I really like the way you've put this Skytwig. :) Perception, belief, intent and action are how we create our world. :) Gosh! :eek: If we look at these as they relate to suit we get: wands = intent, swords = action, cups = belief, and pentacles = perception. That's the best argument for swords = fire I've ever seen. }) So the 9 of Wands? The are different ways to get around it. :laugh:

skytwig	25 Nov 2003
So, if we look at the 9 wands, especially if it is in a present or future placement, we know we are dealing with energy that is, in essence, fighting itself...... we know we are being called to a transformation, maybe a transmutation (moving something to a Higher form... ) We need to look at our wands as WANDS...... a tool of energy, a tool that DIRECTS energy toward a manifestation of Spirit for us. Firemaiden, your request is that we look at the aspect of shifting between worlds, and to me, this manifestation of moving between worlds is very much wrapped up in how we utilize our energy....... So if we receive a 9 wands card..... we are bungled.... we are not utilizing the gifts we have to manifest a Higher perception of the faerie worlds and/or the Spirit worlds and/or the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and ad infinitum dimensional worlds that are available to us. And they are available to us!!! They are merely a blink away! We tend to think (swords) that REALITY is limited to this 'tightness' we see around us.... and I say tightness because the definition of reality on Earth is very contained..... we even live in boxes (houses) We like definition here!!!! That is all Swords stuff! How we think is what we live. So we hit the 9 wands and we HAVE to look at our swords messages.... is there a sword card nereby telling us that the problem lies in how we think? Are we stopping the manifestation of leaping between worlds (pents) by using stale thinking? Spiritual stinking thinking????? And, if we look and see lots of cups nereby, we may need to take a look at our heart, our flow of goodness, our relationships with Spirit, with peoplekind, with Nature........ ARE WE OPEN TO WHAT THE UNIVERSE IS PROVIDING???? And if it is pentacles, WHAT ARE WE MANIFESTING? Pentacles to me are clearly the 3rd dimension.... food, work, solid reality as we know it..... what are we surrounded by.... how do we live here.... how are we participating in the Universe? ARE WE LIVING A MAGICKAL LIFE? If our wish (pentacles/wands) is to shift between worlds, then we need to live a magickal life, one filled with wonder.. wonder, to me, is also a cups thing..... it is really all of the suits, but it arise in the heart.... it is a LOVE thing, for Spirit is Love, it is solid, fluid, etherial LOVE, manifested in ALL dimensions....... it is amazing stuff. So, that is how i would utilize this card to see where I need to focus, if i were to use it as a message of blockage to the other worlds....... ;)

Aoife	26 Nov 2003
I think I may be off track, Firemaiden, and perhaps I'm taking this too literally - but are you seeking to explore a means of bringing down the wall.... or transcending it.... or finding a gate through it.... or a way over it? The Thoth image suggests 8 arrows, forming a meshed barrier. The central wand with sun atop and moon at the base strengthens the framework. The arrows appear firmly rooted. I've read somewhere and noted that "the flames in the card are tendfold, implying that energy is directed downward". So, on the face of it, the card speaks of obvious and hidden depths of strength and perseverance, and balanced....rooted power. But if my intuition led me to feel that the image represents a barrier to my progression in some way....... I see no obvious means of getting through it - unless perhaps I tried to squeeze through [in which case i may get stuck]. The image fills the card - so there's no obvious means of getting round it or jumping over it. So if I was intent on bringing the barrier down, the most obvious method would be to unseat it from below - to shake the foundations, to loosen the arrows' hold. Translating this into practical or psychological action - it seems to me that it would require a willingness to unsettle some pretty firm foundations - the consequences of which may be profound and far reaching. But if I was intent on doing it, the analytical route might be safest - metaphorically digging around, but ensuring that the foundations could be shored up again if need be. A far more dangerous, but quicker route might be the use of explosives - to explode the foundations, previous perspectives, ways of seeing and perceiving. But it would be very risky - and might undermine the foundations of other crucially protective walls. By now you're probably thinking I'm barmy. But if not - I would question - just how important is this barrier? Am I sure that what lies beyond is worth the risk? Am I prepared for the likelihood, that if I bring down this barrier, it may brings others tumbling too?

skytwig	26 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife By now you're probably thinking I'm barmy. But if not - I would question - just how important is this barrier? Am I sure that what lies beyond is worth the risk? Am I prepared for the likelihood, that if I bring down this barrier, it may brings others tumbling too? Excellent questions, Aoife!!!! Exactly....... like dominoes tumbling through our lives....... ;)

skytwig	22 Jan 2004
I felt like this thread was abandoned, not finished, needs more input, soooooo, I am bumping it to see if there are more comments to be added. I think this is a marvelous thread that stirred intense insight.... Walls for me are amazing things.... they can be barriers, they can be doors..... how do we see the 9 wands..... what does it prepare us for in the 10? Does it prepare us for something in the 10?

jog1118	23 Jan 2004
the wall in the 9 of wands may be perceived as a dam holding back the waters. the waters is the 10 of swords beating down on anybody foolish enough to think that the sea can be carried on the shoulders of a mere mortal...do i make sense? :smoker:

Palomino	23 Dec 2004
In my opinion the guy that's defending the doorway and keeps things and people coming in is at the same time using his energy in the wrong way because he's keeping himself imprissoned...He's desperately clinging to his old convictions that are based on old wounds,being hurt in the past...This has made him not feeling sure,not confident and suspicious. If he would only get counscious about this,turn around and see the door wide open ,inviting him to experience new things in life. I also noticed that its the sixth wand missing to create the doorway...six stands for harmony,balance,stability,confidence,a solid base...so when he finally takes the initiative to turn around and get counscious...he wil meet all these wonderful things on his way out. And at last he wil be able to close and finish this case just as suits the nine... Love & Light Palomino

The Nine of Wands - Wall? thread was originally posted on 20 Nov 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.