V the heirophant

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catti	18 Nov 2003
i did a spread for another where the heirophant came out as the potential of the situation...the question was love related. all things being what they are in regards to other cards and person situacion i read it as a return focus school and looking into deeping your spiritual relationship with the world/ moving away from romantic love to a deeper kind of love that ultimatley is more fullfilling...........meanwhile another friend has been talking with me about this card being her hardest major to read. so many of us who read tarot have a hard time with the pope as an institution and see it as a negative card no matter how many LWB say Mercy and Unconditional love ( thinking about robin wood):joke: edited to add " i have read that" fives in the pips are associated with conflict.. so what gives? who likes this card?

jmd	18 Nov 2003
The Hierophant is a wonderful representation of what can be seen as advice - often from someone who is able to perceive beyond the obvious to what is often hidden in the depths of a situation. The thread in the History and Iconography section, Le Pape, also looks at the card in various ways, which may give differing views. In terms of selecting this card in a relationship, remember also the title as 'Hierophant' refers to the 'keeper or tender of the sacred'. It may therefore also point to the maintenance of the sacredness of the deeper connection two individuals may have - without necessarily implying that a formal 'couple' relationship is of the greatest import. As Pope, it may also represent a very fatherly and caring figure - a grandfather figure in various cultural settings - where the discipline exercised by the Emperor is here not needed, for the reverence felt for the elder caring individual is such that we are willing to reveal in his ears our secrets, our concerns, our hopes and aspirations - our heart's weights. In turn, his soft understanding gesture blesses us. Such is one of the possible signification of this card... There are, of course, many others :)

Diana	18 Nov 2003
I love the Pope. (Not the real one - I'm pretty anti-Catholic to put it mildly). In the Tarot, he bestows blessings on people. He links the earth to the sky. He is a good guide. In a relationship reading, he often means a church wedding. (In antique times, Five was sometimes called the Nuptial (bridal) Number.) Fives are related to conflict??? That's odd.... Doesn't make sense. In which decks do they represent conflict? The designers obviously didn't know much about numerology..... Five is the number of Man (see Leonardo de Vinci's famous depiction of the man with his arms and legs outspread). The Pentagram. The five senses. Five is the fifth element - the Ether. Reversed, or in its negative meaning, it can be a dangerous card. Fives reversed can represent Evil. Normally the Pope (or Hierophant as the modern decks call him) is a truly wonderful card. I love it when it comes up in a reading. It's like having a Father Figure by one's side guiding me gently on my path. Gently, but sometimes sternly, like fathers do (or should).

lark	18 Nov 2003
This is a card I've had a hard time with. Probably because I use the Robin Wood alot too :) This is how I interpreted it once in a broken relationship situation and the girl found alot of comfort in it. I told her that the Hierophant teaches us how to play the game of love, what the rules are. I told her that this broken relationship had taught her many things that she would find useful in helping make her next relationship a success. Then we wrote down all the things she thought she had learned, (because at first she didn't believe that she had learned anything.) She wrote down over twenty lessons the the Hierophant had taught her. The Twenty Rules of Love we called it. By the time she left we were laughing so hard she didn't have time to cry. You can imagine how silly some of the rules got. It was a learning experiance for me to because it helped me to connect with the Hierophant. And not see him as such a constipated old dictator.

ros	18 Nov 2003
Hi, I use The Hierophant as spiritual beliefs, taking things to a higher level or the next level eg. engagement would be marriage, pregnancy would be birth, anything that takes you to a higher responsiblity in life. #5 I use as a change number in the cards, so that fits also changing from one level to another. I don't always use (R) but if I did for this it might mean "fighting against spiritual beliefs"

Tarot Sparrow	18 Nov 2003
To me the Hierophant is a great teacher, philosopher, and spiritual healer. This card gives you guidance and skills to find the solution to your problem and reach a higher level of enlightenment.

LittleWing	19 Nov 2003
my opinion - you have much that this man / relationship can teach you. another learning experience ...

catti	19 Nov 2003
I am afraid some of you have misinterpreted me...i wasnt really looking for help with the throw/interpretation ( that would be for a different forum) but was using the throw as an example...but all the posts have been great. I am going to direct my friend with whom i was discussing the Pope/Heirophant to this thread. Thank you again everybody, when i cant put things into words correctly there is always such a wealth of information here...I would like to thank everyone who contributes :-)

Inana	19 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Fives are related to conflict??? That's odd.... Doesn't make sense. In which decks do they represent conflict? The designers obviously didn't know much about numerology..... I thought the same before when looking at the Rider-Waite pictures, but i've found it makes sense in a way. Fives and the Hierophant are related to entering spirituality, learning and being part of a community. When we move from the stability of the known to discover new experiences or believings, when we learn, our world enters in some kind of conflict. We need to integrate the new knowledge with the old. With the five of pentacles, sometimes is needed to leave something in order to move forward: habits that doesnt fit anymore, old stuff to make room for the new. Five of wands, inner conflict (the clash of ideas) as well as competition in order to show our value to the others. Is part of the acceptance in groups, we like it or not. About the cups and swords in RW I dont see this relation so clear. About the Hierophant in relationship readings, i see it as commitment, but also as having a lot to learn together what usually means it will not be easy. It can also be the relationship needs some "guidance", theres a will to keep together but isnt defined how or the point where they want to go.

Thirteen	20 Nov 2003
5's aren't conflict so much as upset, change, a sudden and unexpected shift. The 4's are stablity--everything status quo, unmoving, the Emperor sitting firmly on this throne. The 5's are where the throne drops out from under you. This is the trough between waves, the dip, the river--often rapids--between shores. After the solidity of the 4's, this upset can be very troubling. You find yourself feeling impoverished in 5' pentacles, feeling like a loser in the 5' swords, feeling invisible in 5' staffs and unable to feel anything other than remorse and regret in 5' cups. However, working through this upset and, more importantly, changing your perspective, how you see it, eventually leads to the even higher stability, victory and understanding of the 6's. The Hierophant is the person who gets us through this unsettling time. He offers order in a time of chaos, direction in a time of confusion. As JMD pointed out, he shows us what we can't see--often the obvious. When you can't find your hat, the Hierophant is the one who will say, "It's right atop your head." And he's the one who will tell you that you're seeing your situation all wrong. For example in the 5/cups, he's the one who will say, "stop looking at the spilled cups and see those cups that are still standing!" The Hierophant is a rock to stand on in the middle of the river, a guide to help you see your way to the other shore. Among my favorite Hierophants is one where he's represented as the Oracle at Delphi--as the women there who answered questions. Also, in the mythic tarot where he's Chiron, the wise Centaur who was teacher to many a hero.

ros	20 Nov 2003
I also show people the keys on the bottom of the card & tell them that there are keys in your life that will open doors for you.

Aoife	20 Nov 2003
I read tonight for a friend - a black british woman, whose parents came here from Jamaica, whose ancestors were brought as slaves from Africa. And there in the Present was the Hierophant occluded by the Knight of Pents. It was one of those reactions of immediate certainty...... my friend assiduously toiling to meet the needs of her family, imbued with spiritual strength passed to her through countless eons. The richness and power of her heritage carried in her genes, in the essence of her being. A profound recognition and affirmation.

HudsonGray	20 Nov 2003
When I was designing that card for my deck the Heirophant really was an artist block. I didn't want to show a Pope, or anything along those lines & tried lateral thinking to see where I could borrow from. (I've read the Robin Wood book too, and her interpretation has influenced me in that card). I didn't want mine to be so negative, and ended up looking at Asian interpretations and chakras as an alternate. It worked out ok I think, the spirituality, conditioning, study, serenity, dicipline, etc. that's needed in the card image seemed to come through ok. I think sometimes the 'traditional' role makes for some heavily 'boxed' thinking, and it's good to branch out with different ways of looking at things. (I've got it over here, it's on the bottom: http://www.falconsmew.com/prodcut4_1.html )

Diana	21 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen 5's aren't conflict so much as upset, change, a sudden and unexpected shift. The 4's are stablity--everything status quo, unmoving, the Emperor sitting firmly on this throne. The 5's are where the throne drops out from under you. Thirteen: I can see that when one looks at the Rider Waite pictures where you are coming from. But still, it's doesn't make sense. Numerologically, since as far back as we can go, fives are not a number of upset or shifts. I wish Mr. Waite could tell us where he found his own peculiar set of numerology. Perhaps he made it up.....

Minos	21 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I wish Mr. Waite could tell us where he found his own peculiar set of numerology. Perhaps he made it up..... The fifth Sephirah, Geburah ('power', apparently) is attributed to Mars. Martial traits were not looked upon all that well by Waite and his predecessors, so 5 became the sucky number in the Waite deck.

Major Tom	21 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Numerologically, since as far back as we can go, fives are not a number of upset or shifts. Diana - perhaps you'd share some meanings for five? Some keywords I have are: knowledge, adaptation and going beyond. :) For me, the Heirophant is at it's most basic is about belief and community. He functions as a bridge between the spiritual and physical. He monitors the spiritual health of the community and performs spiritual healing. He works together with others to ensure the common goals of the community are achieved. The 5 pip cards illustrations demonstrate a challenging situation which if approached with knowledge and willingness to adapt will certainly take you to a new level. :)

Diana	21 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom Diana - perhaps you'd share some meanings for five? Some keywords I have are: knowledge, adaptation and going beyond. :) I did in my first post. :) Can give more if you insist.....

Major Tom	21 Nov 2003
I always have trouble following a thread if I don't go back to the beginning. :laugh: Somehow I end up wanting more! :laugh:

Minos	21 Nov 2003
< The 5 is the Centre of the Cross.>> In the kind of Kabbalah that Waite was using, 6 was the mediator and center of the cross. 5 was halfway up on the left side, threatening to pull everything towards severity. <> (Again, in the system Waite was using) it does provide magical power, but the magical power of the microcosm, which has to be balanced out by the hexagram, signifying the macrocosm. Hence after you've done a Golden Dawn pentagram ritual, you invoke the hexagram above you. <> (Again, in Waite's Kabbalah) the Roman numerals on the cards aren't important. What is important is the Hebrew letter correspondence. The Hierophant is Vau, which makes it the sixth path on the tree of life. The path of Vau connects Chokmah ('wisdom', sphere 2) and Chesed ('mercy', sphere 4). Note that both of these are on the right-hand pillar of mercy. Vau also corresponds to the sign of Taurus. Contrast with Geburah ('power') which is sphere 5, to which the fives in the minors correspond. Geburah is on the opposite side of the tree - the pillar of severity. It is on the same horizontal level as Chesed, lower down than Chokmah. So the Hierophant is capable of rising above the fives (and he comes at the situation from the opposite end anyway). Geburah corresponds to Mars astrologically, which is a horse of an entirely different color compared to Taurus... (Again, in Waite's system.)

Diana	21 Nov 2003
Minos, thanks for that interesting information. So, in order to understand Waite's Tarot, one has to be interested in Golden Dawn antics. That's probably why his Tarot deck and all its numerous clones do not appeal to me. Robes, ceremonial swords and stuff like that have always made me run away as fast as my two legs can carry me. I'll stick to my Marseilles Tarot. It's closer to the original. To each his own.

Minos	21 Nov 2003
<> Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that Waite's thinking, and his instructions to Pixie Coleman-Smith, were basically formed by Golden Dawn ideas. No, in the sense that: 1. Sometimes he disagreed with GD ideas and put his own spin on things. 2. Sometimes he agreed with GD ideas but felt they had to be kept secret, so they didn't make it into the deck. Both of these lead to some important changes. For instance, the old-school Golden Dawn Lovers card showed a woman chained on an island, threatened by a sea-monster, an armed hero flying to her rescue. One or the other of the above factors led Waite not to use this design. But these first two pale in comparison to: 3. The deck was designed so that it could be read without a knowledge of GD esoterica, just relying on the pictures. 4. Hence, the picture-meanings have tended to take on a life of their own, subtly modifying or altogether replacing the 'correct' interpretation, a tendency encouraged by the fact that: 5. Waite was on pretty hard times during the design of the deck, and Pixie often had little input from him and complete artistic control on a surprising number of cards. Thus, many of the cards are not only removed from the GD meaning, but also removed from the Waite meaning. Even where the intended meanings do line up, there are differences in interpretation that slip in when you interpret based on pictures rather than cabalistic tables etc. For instance, there are loads of very good reasons why Trump V cannot be associated with the 5-numbered pips in GD-style occult tarot. None of these obstacles obtain in a pictorial system of reading. (That isn't to say that occult tarot is more limited - it opens up lots of other comparisons once you learn the system.) By straddling two schools of tarot interpretation (occult, which it inherited, and pictorial/intuitive, which it basically invented) the Waite deck gave birth to a tradition of tarot that is inelegant, full of kludgy compromises and workarounds, incompatible with itself in too many places, messy, ugly, infuriating, extremely restrictive past an intermediate level, but also incredibly rich, varied, and rounded. Not well-rounded, but rounded. Quite a few times I've found myself writing a rant against its sloppiness on some list (I threw away my own RWS after 2 weeks) only to find that I've learned something new. <> And I'll stick to my Thoth!

Thirteen	21 Nov 2003
Minos! This is fascinating stuff. Every time I think I know the scoop on Waite, I learn more. So how does the Thoth 5's measure up? And does the Hierophant of Thoth correlate to the 5 minors or is he, too, above/beyond them? In agreement with Diana, most of my symbol books indicate 5 as a harmonious number--but it does relate to Ishtar, making it as much about War as love and it can signify the number of Jesus' wounds (which could certainly relate to Waite's 5's as they are cards of taking hits or wounds). Most especially, 5 stands for "Strength" among the old Hebrews (though one wonders, then, why the "strength' card?). And in this Wang's QABALISTIC TAROT is most enlightening. He says: "(Strength/5)...most difficult...to approach because its lessons may be so overwhelming and devastating. It offers a necessary corrective in our lives by tearing away all that is useless, undesirable or outdated. We see the action...in the fire sweeping a blighted and dried forest, in a war which tears down a diseased society, or in any situation in our lives where we are forced by circumstances to begin anew." He adds that, "Often the influence...is mistakenly considered evil....It is, however, a necessary and Holy force in the universe asserting...a requisite balance....It is only through...relentless self-discipline...that the Elemental points of the Pentagram may be rought inot perfect balance in the individual." He concludes with the idea that 5's relate to inititations rituals and are "described as a devastating immersion in the Fires of Truth, where all that is unworthy is burned away." Thus, our 5 minors, with their "sucky" images could be related to a time of initiation--the person going through strife not unlike the often painful rituals of manhood, adulthood or shamanic enlightenment. Christ on the cross or Buddha among the strict asthetics--starving himself. All lead to transendance. Quote: Originally posted by Minos Hence after you've done a Golden Dawn pentagram ritual, you invoke the hexagram above you. That's VERY interesting. I like the idea of 5 as microcosmic harmony vs. 6 as macro--that makes a good deal of sense for many a pictorial tarot deck. How does one "invoke" the hexagram above?

ros	21 Nov 2003
Thirteen, Someone told be once you have to have a odd number to make things balance. e.g. so one balances 3, the l in the middle balances the one on each side. 7, the 1 in the middle balances the 3 on each side. 5 balances 2 on each side on the one. 2 1 2 could this be why odd numbers are of balance?

Thirteen	21 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ros could this be why odd numbers are of balance? Could be! I just edited my last post to add in some things Wang has to say about 5's--he certainly concurs saying that 5 is about Balance in the sense that it balances out what would otherwise be an imbalance of "mercy" with severity--balances out an overabundance of "love" with war. It would seem that the "upset" is really a way of putting things back into harmony.

Minos	21 Nov 2003
<> A trump isn't necessarily above or below a pip card - though in some cases like this one it may be. It's more like apples and oranges. Or actually, apples and branches. The tree of life has 10 fruits (spheres, numbered cards) which are connected by branches (paths, trumps.) When you draw out the diagram, sphere 5 and path 6/Vau are on different sides of the tree. Path 6 happens to reach a bit higher up on the diagram, but they do different things in different ways. So in a certain sense they're not comparable in terms of higher/lower. Then again, in a certain sense they are! It's all very confusing. ;) Which is to say, there's room for individual interpretation and so forth. Thoth, Waite and more traditional Golden Dawn decks all work on the same basic map, but they disagree about certain details of the map. For instance: is Heh the Emperor or the Star? Big fights about that one. <> Though it gets easier if you rename Strength to 'Lust'. ;) Seriously though, Strength-the-Trump just happens to connect Sphere 5 (Power/Strength) with Sphere 4 (Mercy). Which is interesting. <> Pretty simple. After you're done charging around the room carving pentagrams into thin air and intoning Hebrew god-names, you call upon the four archangels and sthen ay, "for about me flame the pentagrams, and in the column shines the six-rayed star" (or some variant thereon) and then you visualize a hexagram above you. See for example: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/LBR.htm (this author says the pentagrams should be brilliant white. others will strenuously insist on white or green or flame-colored).

Inana	22 Nov 2003
Thank you Minos, Thirteen, Diana & the others for all this interesting stuff. Learning, learning...

catti	23 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Fives are related to conflict??? That's odd.... Doesn't make sense. In which decks do they represent conflict? The designers obviously didn't know much about numerology..... Five is the number of Man (see Leonardo de Vinci's famous depiction of the man with his arms and legs outspread). F i would venture a guess that people relate 5 with conflict because it is related to man. Man is in constant struggle with environment, with his/her mind, with each other. The pope , the man that medieates between god and the rest of us mortals is to represent the highest we can evolve as just man?. I'm guessing it was Golden Dawn that changed it to Heirophant? which probably works better for modern times...i know so many people who have a problem with this card based on the problem they have with organized religion and its defects..

firestorm	23 Nov 2003
Thank you Minos and Thirteen, I've learned alot from this thread! Minos: I'm looking forward to seeing more of your posts, in fact, I'm going to do a search on your previous posts. You have so much knowledge. Catti: I agree, I can't imagine anything more conflicted then humans.

Diana	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catti I'm guessing it was Golden Dawn that changed it to Heirophant? which probably works better for modern times Most people have never heard of the word "Hierophant". I reckon most people have to look up in a dictionary what it means. It goes back even further in time than the word "Pope". I cannot see how anyone today can relate to a "Hierophant".... unless they are convinced that they were high priestesses or priests in some Egyptian temple (like so many people who do past life regressions seem to experience). Why do people get so hung up about the word "Pope" - in the Tarot it has nothing to do with the Catholic Religion - anymore than the Star has to do with the stars we see in the sky. The Hanged Man doesn't mean someone is being hung up by their feet either. Take me for instance, I cannot stand royalty. I think it stinks to high heaven and all royalty should be stripped immediately of all their privileges and get sent to work (preferably some real lousy work, like cleaning the public lavatories at the railway stations). Well, the Empress and the Emperor card have never bothered me at all. Sigh.........

Thirteen	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Why do people get so hung up about the word "Pope" - in the Tarot it has nothing to do with the Catholic Religion - anymore than the Star has to do with the stars we see in the sky. Not an apt comparison. An apt comparison would be the problem of the word "Pope" in tarot and that of "Devil"--or "Death" for that matter. All pretty much the same problem. It's hard for readers and querents to get past the literal connotation of the word. The Star, on the other hand, is far easier to absorb as something other than a star in the sky; we've spent a linguistic lifetime, afterall, giving it other, transendent meanings. From "twinkle twinkle little star" to "wish upon a star" to "you are my lucky star" and "don't you want to be a star?" We talk of fixed stars, star-crossed lovers, gold stars and the star of Bethelhem; we reach for stars, make constellations out of them, discover them, name them; we're made of star dust and when fairy godmothers do something magical and wonderful, stars sparkle off the end of their wands. The Star comes ready made with dozens of positive meanings, many of them already several steps away from its literal meaning. NOT so the Pope which has one meaning in our language and only one: That old guy in Rome who runs the Catholic Church. At BEST the only other linguistic references you're going to get are people saying, "He's like the Pope!" meaning that their boss or someone is running things like that old guy in Rome. Pope = Catholic, rich, powerful. If you're anti-Catholic it means corrupt and evil, if you're Catholic it means the highest spiritual authority and maybe someone you revere and have a picture of up on your wall. But either way, there's no escaping that literal meaning and all the baggage it hauls with it. End story. Which is why, in some ways, Hierophant works better. No, people don't know what it means, and no, they don't identify with it...but it doesn't come toting 2000 years of baggage either. So when you say, "Hierophant," and someone says, "What does that mean?" you have a nice blank slate on which to answer. Give them any meaning and its the one they attatch to that word. You don't have to fight, tear down, argue or deal with some other, literal and entrenched connotations.

Diana	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen All pretty much the same problem. It's hard for readers and querents to get past the literal connotation of the word. Querents I can understand - most of them know nothing about Tarot. But if they know nothing, then it shouldn't bother them - anymore than Emperor or Hanged Man. I mean, they leave it up to us to interpret the cards for them. But if a reader is unable to get past a word like this, that is something surprising. I mean, Tarot is all about going beyond the veil... going beyond the illusions.... going beyond the words and into the deeper mysteries. If when one is reading one stays all hung up on our misconceptions on words, then I don't think we're going to get very far indeed on our Tarot journey. No "escaping that literal meaning and all the baggage it hauls around with it"? Well, I managed fine. And I put the Catholic hierarchy in more or less the same bag as I do royalty (only I would give them a bag that scratches and that is rather smelly. Royalty will just have a normal bag that only smells a wee bit. Both bags get dumped into the nearest pond.)

Thirteen	24 Nov 2003
Quote: No "escaping that literal meaning and all the baggage it hauls around with it"? Well, I managed fine. And I put the Catholic hierarchy in more or less the same bag as I do royalty I appreciate that you do fine--but you asked why Readers can't get past "The Pope" and I answered. You point out in particular that you get past the Emperor/Empress despite your dislike of Royality. However, unlike you, most readers do not equate the Catholic Hierarchy with Royality. To most, there is a vast difference between Emperor/Empress and "The Pope." Why? Well, unless you live in Japan you just never hear of "Emperors" anymore. Emperors are lost to antiquity and myth. An Emperor is old dead Nero who fiddled while Rome burned or the Emperor in the Nightingale story by Hans Christian Anderson, or the Emperor Constantine or enlightened if egotistical Emperor Nepoleon. Even seeing the Emperor as Royality, on a par with Kings and Queens doesn't change the fact that most people think of such rulers as history or storytelling or as Prince William--someone to swoon over, rich and with that fairytale "prince" word attatched--but in the end, still just a figurehead. But even the most corrupt, Saudi Prince living hasn't the power, money, and allegence of millions to back any ajenda he cares to name anywhere in the world. There is no such monarch around who can say, "birth control is a sin," and have millions of people around the world reject condoms and birth control pills. Such power princes might have over their own people, yes--but over citizens belonging to another country? I've had friends who follow all idicts pronounced by the Pope. But I've never had any friends who obeyed rules set down by a King or Queen--let alone an Emperor or Empress. This is why most readers find it easy to toss the baggage carried by the Emperor and Empress aside--but not that of the Pope. There is no Emperor and Empress in the present who has any such world wide power or affect. The Pope, on the other hand, has a real, tangable power and an affect on the world RIGHT NOW. The Pope is not a fairy tale, not an abstract (like the Hanged Man), not a metaphor, not history and not just a figure head. He's here, he's real, he has power, he has an affect and because of that, the very mention of him is going to push buttons that are very, very hard for certain readers to get past. If you can get past it, more power to you, but don't get mad at the poor readers who can't. There is, I think, a very good reasons for many a reader to find "The Pope" problematic as a card. Little wonder they'd rather have a "Hierophant" which, like Emperor and Empress, sounds more historic, mythic and far less real and immediate than "Pope."

firestorm	24 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana But I think it's a real pity, because it sounds rather petty to me. Interesting. I was just thinking the same thing about the tone that this thread has taken.

Minos	24 Nov 2003
* First, where did it come from? Who first called the card 'Hierophant' rather than 'Pope'? 'Hierophant' or 'Grand Hierophant' both show up in Eliphaz Levi's description of the card (http://www.ln.com.ua/~kostenko/levitarot.html). But the title, for him, is still 'Pope'. 'Hierophant' is an alternative, almost by way of explanation. The actual title change seems to have come, as I think someone else hinted at already, under the Golden Dawn. * Second, what is a Hierophant? The word is a compound of two Greek words: 'hier-' ('sacred') and 'phainein' ('to show'). 'Hierophant' was the title of the chief officer in the Eleusinian mysteries, whose job was to, literally, show the sacred things - which included, among others, seed-cakes shaped to look like genitals and an ear of corn that was cut at the dramatic peak of the rites. So far, so good. Fast forward to the eighteenth century, when people started to try and reconstruct the mysteries of Egypt. They didn't know how to read hieroglyphs, so the best they could do was use descriptions of Egyptian practice by Greek authors where they existed, or else reconstruct Egyptian practices from Greek (or Jewish) ones. Hence, for example, the head officer of the pseudo-Egyptian Masonic Rite of Memphis was called the 'Grand Hierophant', but he presided over a ritual based on King Solomon's temple, but also claiming to have the secret wisdom of the Pharaohs. Modern scholars often refer to this inventive syncretism as 'Egyptomania' - though it impinges upon Greece and Israel as much as Egypt. Naturally, when hieroglyphics were discovered, the Egyptomaniacs were caught with their pants down, as it were. Which leads us to: * Third, why did the Golden Dawn adopt this naming convention? After the Rosetta stone had been cracked, there were two ways to look upon Egyptomania. One way was to look upon it as a fanciful failure of scholarship, and dismiss it entirely. Most people took this route. Then there was the second way. In trying to reconstruct the rites of the Pharaohs, the Egyptomaniacs had put together a composite language drawing (if only superficially) on all the important ancient wisdom traditions. Could it be that they had discovered a universal language of the mysteries? The Golden Dawn certainly thought so. Such a language would make all kinds of useful comparisons and discoveries possible, just as the new language of anthropology was doing in other realms, and just as the languages of science and mathematics had done before. In the patchwork discourse of a failed Egyptology, the Golden Dawn saw a chance to put the study of hidden lore on a really scientific, universal basis. And they not only adopted this language, but actually set about extending it. Thus their temple ceremonies included not only the usual Jewish and Greco-Egyptian synthesis, but also new layers of Rosicrucianism, of genuine Egyptian texts translated by EA Wallace Budge, of previously ignored Greek texts like the Chaldean Oracles, etc. So when they came to the Tarot, they saw 'The Pope' as Trump V. Not very universal. What to do about it? Well, since Catholicism (like all religions) is obviously just a degeneration of the ancient universal mystery system, the Pope must be a degeneration of some piece of that; and the Pope best corresponds to the hierophant. By changing the name - by putting it in the universal language of the mysteries(tm) - they hoped to recover the truer, more ancient, more neutral, more universal meaning of the card. Of course, the language they were using was as bound by chance historical factors and parochialism as that of the original tarot, but they didn't know that. What the Golden Dawn was trying to do was pretty cool. It may not have worked perfectly, but it's worth appreciating just how radical and inventive the project was.

Diana	25 Nov 2003
As usual, very interesting information, Minos. Thank you very much indeed. I think the Golden Dawn did a lot of interesting things - they seemed to have enjoyed themselves tremendously and they certainly had a whole lot of very unusual and eccentric people who made up their little group. Some of them were very learned indeed - and they took a bit of here, and a bit of there, and a bit of the middle, and they made a whole nice new system out of it. Very clever indeed.

Belladonna	10 Dec 2003
I associate the Heirophant with structure, history, and tradition. All that is man-made. Institutions like churches, universities and hospitals in which stories and lore are passed down in an oral tradition. History with a capital "H". I abhor it. I also read once that the fives are associated with family. The institution of marriage? I always think of the student/teacher relationship , myself, when I see the Heirophant. Or the idea that whoever is drawing the card may unknowingly be a role model or teacher to someone else. The Heirophant reminds me to live what I believe. To apply my beliefs, my spiritual truths to my life in a down to earth way. To unite body, mind and spirit. I know I won't progress along my path until I take stock and get real.

WalesWoman	14 Dec 2003
I drew the Hierophant this morning for the position of "What area of my spiritual development should I concentrate on during the next seven days?" in a weekly outlook spread. This thread has really helped enlighten me, especially how it pertained to the rest of the cards that came up in this spread. I was looking at the tradional, intellectual knowledge, student/teacher, institutional meanings rather than the father figure, balancing new knowledge with old, being a bridge to balance self with goals common with the community (or family). I can't quite get it into words yet, but I'm getting a real sense of what it means and how it pertains. Basically I think it was telling me, that I need to look at the traditions of the season, share those meanings with my children, balance my feelings with what they need so we all can share the joy of them. I'm still working on it figuring this one out.

Major Tom	15 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by WalesWoman I drew the Hierophant this morning for the position of "What area of my spiritual development should I concentrate on during the next seven days?" in a weekly outlook spread. being a bridge to balance self with goals common with the community (or family). I'm still working on it figuring this one out. My Hierophant soul told me I could help you figure it out. :) It's about what you believe. Personally, I believe it's about being a bridge between people and the divine. Faith is an area of spiritual development a lot of people struggle with...What I accept on faith is God is Everything.

cormac	12 May 2005
wow thank you all for your info -- just went looking for a little extra info on The Hierophant and found a book :D -- one question perhaps is that in a reading (pregnancy spread) i'm working on, the child's "support in life" drew the Hierophant -- do you think that symbolizes a real, tangible person, as a court court typically stands for an actual person? btw here is a link for the full spread if more of a reference point for the card placement might be needed :) http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20430

gilded goat	12 May 2005
i feel that the hierophant can also be represenative of the family unit,which would fit in with 'support'

cormac	12 May 2005
gilded goat wrote: i feel that the hierophant can also be represenative of the family unit,which would fit in with 'support' oh thanks! -- i was actually kind of limiting my mind to one rather than thinking in a larger sense :) -- that helps plenty right off the bat :)

judylea1	12 May 2005
In respect to romantic love, The hierophant as representative of tradition and an institution can translate to the institution of marriage.

The V the heirophant thread was originally posted on 18 Nov 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.