Tarot & Karmic Debts?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

ros	08 Dec 2003
I have found this somewhere a long time ago, ( don't know where) & use it on my cards. Does this make sense that these cards carry Karma with them? I know the Karmic Debt #'s are 13, 14, 16, 19 & now I wondering what am I doing with these ones. Thanks for any replys. Karma on the followings cards- (debt- lesson now learning) 12 the hanged man debt- inner & outer struggles 13 death debt-past issues 14 temperance debt- self control & change 15 the devil debt- failure to make change 16 the tower debt- housecleaning of choices in the past These are the only 5 cards I have these lessons for. Any ideas?

Inana	08 Dec 2003
Time ago someone made a reading for me and interpreted 8-Justice as karma. It makes sense being the card of adjustment. So if I had to choose only one card related to this subject, would be this one. And maybe it could be interesting to consider Judgement as a liberation from karma . Just an idea. To be honest, i dont truly believe in karma and/or past lives. Sounds very confussing to me. But i have fun trying to understand how it could be possible cause its a fascinating idea...

Thirteen	08 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ros 12 the hanged man debt- inner & outer struggles 13 death debt-past issues 14 temperance debt- self control & change 15 the devil debt- failure to make change 16 the tower debt- housecleaning of choices in the past This is a new one for me. It seems awefully...weighty and depressing to give ALL these cards the burden of Karmic debt. I think Inana's mention of Justice as "karma" really should be enough. Or if it's not enough, certainly the Wheel of Fortune has a Karmic spin to it (sorry, couldn't resist). The "What comes up must go down and what goes down must come up" aspect is very reminiscent of Karmic balance. Also Judgement for that matter. But while it might be interesting to view all the cards in relationship to Karma, it does seem like overkill on the subject, doesn't it? That said, if we were going to give them Karmic interpetations, wouldn't you say that: Hanged Man = paying Karmic debts? It is, after all, a card about sacrifices and seeing thngs in a new way. I'd think this card would signal recognition of such a debt and a willingness to pay it. Death = Death is a card of rebirth and change--so it fits coming after the Hanged Man in this case. Debt paid, and so the person can be reborn (metaphorically speaking) to a higher state. I would agree with the Devil and Temperence, but I think the Tower would be more about RECOGNIZING a debt is owed, finally seeing a truth you refused to acknowledge and paying the hard way if necessary. As compared to the eye-opening, willing sacrifice of the Hanged man. Mind you, this is just how I'd interpet them, my humble opinions there. As for Past Karma, that would seem to suit JUDGEMENT best. Judgement is about shaking off the past, all debts paid so you can really rise up toward Narvana.

jog1118	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen but I think the Tower would be more about RECOGNIZING a debt is owed, finally seeing a truth you refused to acknowledge and paying the hard way if necessary. ...i agree with thirteen re the tower representative of karma; but i only see negative karma in the tower. what card would be representative of good karma? :smoker:

Thirteen	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jog1118 ...i agree with thirteen re the tower representative of karma; but i only see negative karma in the tower. what card would be representative of good karma? The Star could be indicative of good Karma in exchange for good deeds (pour the water out on the land, reap the rewards). Also the Sun which would indicate to me the good Karma that comes with a new life, fresh and bright and sunny. Also the Wheel of Fortune which usually indicates upward motion, luck, etc. This might indicate that balance of karma--you did good, you go up, another who did bad to you goes down. Those are what come immediate to mind. The interesting one would be The Fool. Free of Karma, wouldn't you say?

jog1118	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen The interesting one would be The Fool. Free of Karma, wouldn't you say? i would say yes the fool is free of karma because he is just starting out. he hasn't made his mark on the world yet, he is just contemplating on what he wants to do. once he makes decisive actions (this will be the magician already), his karma starts... :smoker:

ros	09 Dec 2003
Yes, I agree with you all, thanks for replys. I have no idea where I had found that. Your ideas are a lot easier & not so heavy!

Jewel-ry	09 Dec 2003
Please feel free to correct me but I've a feeling I've read that the Moon can represent past lives too!! Seems like the karmic debt issue can be related to lots of cards if you feel like putting that slant on it. I personally think its too much and could be rather depressing. J :)

jog1118	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jewel-ry Please feel free to correct me but I've a feeling I've read that the Moon can represent past lives too!! ...just my thought on the moon and karma: joan bunning's keywords for the moon are: fear, illusion, imagination, bewilderment we could say that the above keywords may arise if a person is not in tune with his/her past life or if the past life may have been too disturbing. that also brings a question to mind: do we have to fulfill our past live's purpose for us to continue on with our present life undisturbed by the past??? :smoker:

MeeWah	10 Dec 2003
The origin of the word Karma is from Sanskrit; means "fate" or "work". Fate oft has a connotation of predestiny (& a negative one at that) but it actually refers to an eventual outcome or result *based on what precedes* or has been previously set in motion. The concept of work pertains to that which one works on or needs to work on. Karma is *not* necessarily a negative quality nor is it always associated with the negative: it refers to a wholistic condition. Karma is impartial; of a higher concept than the justice of man's or worldly law which at best, is imperfect. Thus, it basically refers to the cosmic law of balance or returns based on past actions or intent. It also pertains to the interconnectedness of all life where the actions of one can affect or impact self &/or others in a ripple or trickle-down effect. There is no statute of limitations associated with karma. That is, due to free will 'tis not necessary to learn sequentially from past experiences for the present or future life but at one's individual pace or whenever one is ready. Depending on the individual perception or readiness, learning proceeds problematically (the hard way) or more easily. Tarot cards are impartial yet wholistic in that they encompass both the positive & the negative; mirror both the light & the dark aspects. As with any experience on the earthly level, learning is achieved in steps of varying capabilities at different times. Thus, the lightning-struck tower can be representative of an awakening that leads to enlightenment eventually if not immediately. Whilst its effects can be unpleasant because humankind tends to be creatures of habit, to resist change because 'tis more comfortable to maintain the familiar, change can bring a certain freedom from the the same-old or the superfluous that has been outgrown. In that sense, The Tower can also be seen as progressing out of the box; extending one's boundaries; gaining more knowledge or improving one's opportunities.

jmd	10 Dec 2003
Thankyou for this MeeWah... I was about to reply, and noted that you were in the process of posting, so waited... and glad am I I did. ros posts a question with important concepts and ramifications, and Thirteen's, Inana's, jog1118's and jewel-ry's replies already address how various cards may be seen more Karmically... What I had wanted to basically post was that each and every card - or the Major Arcana ones at least - may very well reflect various Karmic connections or impulses and influences operating in the situation at hand. They may also, as meditative gates, enable us to penetrate beyond the veil and assist us to perceive these deeper spiritual and Karmic forces in operation. At a deeper level, Karmic connections can be seen to be forged by each of our acts, neglects, thoughts, and feelings... these connect us with the fabric of the world, weaves us in the canvas upon which our individual lives are painted as scenes to be played and affected by the very fabric upon which they present themselves. The title, for me, is therefore more closely reflected by 'Tarot & Karmic Connections' than 'Debts', for not a loan to be repaid is implied, but a connection deeply weaved as we daily act, daily think, daily feel, in the exercise of our free will...

MeeWah	10 Dec 2003
JMD: Thanks! Each of the cards mayst be seen as representing signposts along the individual journey. One mayst accept or decline what be offered. Again, the choice up to the individual. Regarding your statement: "At a deeper level, Karmic connections can be seen to be forged by each of our acts, neglects, thoughts, and feelings... these connect us with the fabric of the world, weaves us in the canvas upon which our individual lives are painted as scenes to be played and affected by the very fabric upon which they present themselves." As Shakespeare expressed it: "All the world's a stage". Any karmic ties binding one to any thing/person/place created through the internal & external interactions towards same; carried by the emotions. 'Tis the emotional connection that giveth strength to that which an individual beareth (as in 10-Wands)--also known in the modern vernacular as the "excess baggage". When one ceases to be unduly affected by the emotions through the development of discernment, one develops a more wholistic vision & understanding culled from the inherent knowledge carried by each to the earthly experience (also within the auspices of 10-Wands). Emotions hath their place in this particular plane of experience, for 'tis by the emotions that one mayst know self & others--if one wouldst see; however, due to the nature of the emotions, they tend to hold one in "one place". Knowledge per se meaneth naught for it needeth the practical application--such as mayst be achieved through the experiencing of life events. Detachment from the emotions offereth an access to the larger picture of the life. To see that all parts of the life associations hath their place. Connect to maketh not only the individual journey, but part of all journeys past, present, future. Ultimately, contribute to the evolution of mankind. In terms of the karmic influences, it mayst appear contradictory but no deity or exterior force actually "judges" one save for the soul attending each. Cosmic Law operates as a natural system of checks & balances created to aid mankind's endeavors. Hence, each individual step along the way automatically "measured". Messages of guidance expressed through the cards or other means, such as through the dreams, meditations, other people as well as through actual events. The soul knoweth the needs & the ultimate goal. Thus, each lifetime for the purpose of meeting self & all that it implies through the vehicle of free will.

The Tarot & Karmic Debts? thread was originally posted on 08 Dec 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.