four of pentacles

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

ros	27 Jan 2004
When the 4 of pentacles comes up in a reading I ask the client "what are you clinging to?' also I have: -rely on yourself -looking after what we have earned -after risking in #3 we hang on in #4 -if you have something & can not stand to part with it then it owns you. -earthly riches do nothing for the inner soul, for the figure looks poor in spite of his many possessions -material achievement -SMOTHERING, nothing new can come to you because of how tightly you are holding things in place -being tight with money Any other ideas? Thanks for any replys.

HudsonGray	27 Jan 2004
Frugal, not just tight with money. Frugal keeps the budget in line. Hoarding. Greed that goes with private collecting. A reminder that money doesn't HAVE to be spent!

WalesWoman	28 Jan 2004
Another one could be about physical/health, what needs to be guarded or hoarded? Maybe this person is doing too much and their health is suffering from it. Unwillingness to take risks and invest themselves in what isn't a sure thing. Or they are being asked to give something they aren't willing to give, it doesn't neccessarily mean they are being selfish or greedy, maybe their teenager wants to use the car this person has to have to get to work and isn't willing to risk something happening to it. Things like that. I bet this card would come up a lot around April 15, tax man time.

ol_crazy_Legs	28 Jan 2004
"This card warns against becoming too miserly or acquisitive and hanging on to possessions out of a fear of a loss. Holding on too tightly to what she has will cause the Querent to stagnate and stop growing. While material and finacial security are important, if the Quarent places too much emphasise on these things she is unlikely to achieve the sence of well-being that she is seeking. She is much more likely to feel good about herself when she realizes that her sence of self-worth is not dependent on possessions." from: Secrets of Tarot by Annie Lionnet

mooncat2	29 Jan 2004
I often see fear in this card - holding on to what they have - fear of giving of their gifts or talents to the world in case they are rejected.

Lorem	29 Jan 2004
The four of pents is a card of stability. Pentacles correspond to the Earth element, the most solid and stable of the four elements. Furthermore, the number four is in most numerological systems (most notably Platonic) a number of stability, it being the first perfect square (other than 1, which has its own meanings). I often see this card as being trapped by one's own stability -- financially, socially, or possibly spiritually (although the 4 of cups often covers this aspect). It is the guy who throughout his childhood wanted to become a rockstar who finds himself age 45 as an accountant. The querent is established and well-off, probably has a decent job and perhaps a family. He or she has roots in their current environment, and certain things are expected of them. For this reason, they find it difficult to grow or expand their horizons. They have dreams of bigger and better things and yearn for wild adventures (whatever that means to them). But their job/family/social life is always getting in the way, and in their perception they have too much to lose by risking all of that. So they slog on, sometimes fervently and passionately, in the vain attempt to either forget their dreams or placate them with money. But it is not enough. This is the card of a "dream deferred," and that dream "just sags/ like a heavy load," in the words of Langston Hughes. *Lorem*

firemaiden	29 Jan 2004
I agree with you all, if we draw parallels in the real world, there can be a sense of hoarding, holding on, and self-protection becoming self-emprisonment. On Imagemaker's thread: When the picture says it all, Imagemaker and Lark also recalled wonderful stories where the card was literally associated with 1) a toilet stall, and 2) constipation/colon problems. (Now its the "potty card", LOL) Here are a few more general musings... Protection, Stability, Order, Limits vs. Prison The interesting thing with this card is the dichotomy of positive (support, stability, order) and negative aspects (emprisonment, hoarding, constipation). The Thoth four of disks, called "Power" takes this dichotomy to an interesting dimension: the four disks are arranged in such a way as to suggest a castle-fort with a surrounding moat, and a drawbridge, reminding me very much of the Tower of London. The Tower of London, of course, was a very much a symbol of royal power, yet also a famous prison... as this virtual tour puts it: Quote: [...] the Tower of London has protected, housed, imprisoned and been for many the last sight they saw on Earth. There are after all, both good limits and bad limits. I like what Margarete Petersen says about the this card: "What began very subtly as a new experience, becomes solidified with the four. It becomes clear, solid and ordered. Borders are erected. The order of things gives security. [...] If you fixate too tightly on limits, they can become a prison. [...] " -- with imagery of the snake, she suggests that within the order and limits, we can find wiggle room to set ourselves free. (See MP thread Four of Coins - order and limits) Integrity But does it necessarily have to mean being trapped in one's own stability? Lets talk about good limits... Personally, when I see this card, I think of the foundation of a building, something solid and supportive, I don't really think of the emprisonment yet, because the foundation isn't that high, it's just four coins laid out on the earth. As the card, being a four, also relates to the Emperor, if the card refers to a person, I think of a solid, wholesome person, self-disciplined and honest, deeply supportive, but good at setting clear boundaries -- someone with lots of integrity. Sacred Space Sometimes I think of the 4 of Coins as a Cathedral, instead of a castle/prison. When I was a student (in a previous century), I took a course in "Geography" (it was more like anthropology). We read Mircea Eliade, and learned about the symbolism of human structures. If I recall anything through the dingy, cobwebbed recesses of memory, -- in ancient societies, the four walls necessarily created "sacred" space. Outside the four walls, was chaos, wilderness. Within the four walls was a place for God. -- ___________ edited to say: A google search reveals, the book retrieved from the cobwebs, was The Sacred and the Profane by Mircea Eliade. (The link goes to a site discussing the book)

Aerten	29 Jan 2004
Thanks for posting these, everyone... this is one card that I don't think I've ever drawn (spooky), and whenever I'm riffling through the deck I always wonder what that card is supposed to mean. :confused: The Aeclectic board discussions of cards are always so thorough...

firemaiden	29 Jan 2004
Another thought... I just noticed the Four of Coins in the Tarot de Marseille has shield with an eagle in the center of it -- obviously harking back to the Emperor. (Duh... its a 4) -- and giving the impression of *power*, which must be what Crowley later took up in entitling his Four of Disks "Power". -- I was thinking the interesting thing about the eagle in the center is, well, (if he weren't just an emblem on a shield), he could fly free from the center structure. As it is, the eagle is bound by the structure of the four coins, but he is also surrounded with curvaceous flowers, which look as though they are embracing him with gentle, loving affection... (aha! and of course, if you like, the negative side of that could be the smothering action you've mentioned above, Ros) There is a sort of balance of hard and soft here -- a bit like stone castle walls, lined with flowery wall paper, or something -- more of this dichotomy we've been talking about - is the structure a support or a prison....

firemaiden	29 Jan 2004
Now you've gotten me thinking, and looking at the Crowley Four of Disks, and the Marseilles Four of Coins, side by side, and I can see that the moat in the Thoth card might have been inspired by the blue flowers of the Marseille... Certainly water can have the effect of soothing and mothering as well as smothering :laugh:. Here is the Crowley Four of Disks. (The titles are in German because I bought the deck here)

Diana	29 Jan 2004
firemaiden: Will you please be my new teacher of the Tarot of Marseille? How much will you charge?

Jewel-ry	29 Jan 2004
Hi all, This talk of Marseille has made me get my Hadar deck out. This card does not have the Eagle but a selection of intertwined flowers in the centre of the shield. This also speaks of the balance of 'hard' and 'soft'. I am wondering if it could represent creativity but with a self sufficiency, contained, self satisfaction angle?? Your views? J :)

firemaiden	29 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana firemaiden: Will you please be my new teacher of the Tarot of Marseille? How much will you charge? (((Diana)))) ROFLMAO does that mean I get a chocolate pope medal??? hunh? hunh? does it? P.S. I would charge four deniers. But then I would hoard it.

mercenary30	29 Jan 2004
Sometimes it can be a reminder to 'pay yourself first'. Meaning contributing to your future/retirement.

skytwig	29 Jan 2004
I have been contemplating the Emperor card, recently, as i got it (and the King Pentacles) in a reading about where I will be living..... I am stumped as to what that means in the reading..... (A castle!!!!!!!), but this thread is helping..... I use the Thoth deck alot and I like the 4P card, the castle and the moat..... I am considering the concept of castle..... what DOES it represent to us? I, for one, have always been somewhat homeless... my childhood home was more like an asylum for the bizarre, than a place of safety.... the only home I have known was with my Grandmother and I literally craved that place as a child.... so, I understand the hoarding aspect of the 4p RWS...... So, the 4 must represent FOUNDATION and how we relate to it......

The four of pentacles thread was originally posted on 27 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.