Marseilles questions

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HudsonGray	26 Jan 2004
Nit picky stuff, I know, but I had some questions on the images from the Conver Marseilles. Is that a spoon the Fool carries? WHAT is the Magician holding in his right hand??? Is the Empress really sitting on a bird? That looks like a wing. The heraldry on the Emperors shield--were they indicating a real king at the time or was it poking fun at the institution? Why don't the horses have back halves on the Chariot? Why is the Hanged Man hanging from dead tree branches instead of a tree? Are those supposed to be antlers on everyone in the Devil card? I'm assuming that means they're 'rutting'? I'm sure it's not mothballs, but what exactly ARE those falling spheres on the Tower? Why do the zods fall UP to the moon, but DOWN from the sun? Why is one person standing on that little mound in the Sun card? And finally--in the World card, the corner figures all have haloes except for the bull on the lower left. (Or am I missing it?) Just curious--these things jumped out at me in the last few days & I didn't know where to find answers on them.

jmd	26 Jan 2004
Wonderful questions, HudsonGray... each of which probably merits a thread of its own :) Let me partially address these as I see them, and rather quickly (with some cross reference where I can remember to existing threads). Let's go through each one: 'Is that a spoon the Fool carries?' Would but all your questions be like this, for then I would not have to really address them ;)... this was the subject of a whole thread entitled: The Fool and his Spoon. Hopefully, the thread does not really answer your question, which will encourage further reflections and queries thereon :D. 'Is the Empress really sitting on a bird? That looks like a wing.' That, to the right of the card, indeed does look like a wing. And is an aspect, or fine detail, of the card which we do need to further look into. Perhaps your comment, as the question you ask, would be asked in the thread in the Iconography section titled III Imperatris How's that for an answer? But to give a brief possible reply, it may also indicate not wings (of some poor little squashed bird), but of an ear of corn (in the older sense of wheat or any cereal). The linked thread may give some reasons as to why I say this. 'The heraldry on the Emperors shield--were they indicating a real king at the time or was it poking fun at the institution?' I am certain that the heraldic representation was not poking fun, but rather represented, not any king, but the office of the Holy Roman Emperor. Since Charlemagne's death, held by a German-based monarch. 'Why don't the horses have back halves on the Chariot?' As you are referring, in your post, to the Conver version - look carefully, they are sometimes described as in fact there - though I do think more in the imagination than in reality. In his opening post, catboxer addresses this issue in the Iconographic thread titled VII The Chariot. It should be pointed out that this is viewed as actually an important element of the card, though I do think that many Marseille versions have the rear horse-legs actually clearly showing in outline, even if not coloured. 'Why is the Hanged Man hanging from dead tree branches instead of a tree?' The reversed question would, I think, be easily asked if that had been the case. As scaffold, even if rather quickly erected (as possibly shown by the freshly hewn branches), would make more sense than a tree - at least to my eyes. 'Are those supposed to be antlers on everyone in the Devil card? I'm assuming that means they're 'rutting'?' Could very well be... this would certainly be consistent with existing views - please do add these observations in the XV Le Diable thread! Antlers or horns, in addition, were also usually depicted on any devilish creatures. In addition, entanglement, which antlers, as opposed to horns, suggest, is consistant with some of the associations of this card. 'I'm sure it's not mothballs, but what exactly ARE those falling spheres on the Tower?' To my mind, a meteor 'shower' - but others have made other suggestions, such as a hail storm. Do, again, look through, and ask again in the thread XVI - La Maison Diev, if you think it could well do with another look (it always can, in my opinion :)). 'Why do the zods fall UP to the moon, but DOWN from the sun?' Though I do personally think that Marseille decks which show a difference make a 'right' choice, the Conver Marseille, which you ask of, has both the Sun and Moon shown with upward moving droplets. This is certainly consistent with their respective effects on the tides, by the way. This really could really be a whole new thread in the Marseille-based Forum, by the way, for it would make for wonderful contributions :)... 'Why is one person standing on that little mound in the Sun card?' I have at one stage, but cannot remember where, seen described that one stands on earth, the other on water. Personally, I suspect that the ground woodcut gives this impression - no more... but then again, I often say that small details work themselves into an image, despite, possibly, the artist. Oft, the two are said (unless described as identical twins) to be masculine and feminine figures. In the Conver, the one standing on 'water' has breasts, though small, which droop somewhat. The other has more masculine characteristics... All I can say is, I'm glad you didn't ask about the tail on the left-hand figure :)!!! 'And finally' I don't believe this for one second! 'in the World card, the corner figures all have haloes except for the bull on the lower left' I thought this was discussed in the XXI - Le Monde thread... but maybe it isn't :D These are wonderful reflective questions and fine observations... thankyou :)

HudsonGray	26 Jan 2004
Thanks, I'll be checking out the threads. (You missed the Magician's mysterious 'thingie' in his hand though). I've seen one woodcut where it's obviously a round ball & nothing else. One woodcut where it's a more personal item attached to the male anatomy--but he's holding the 'ball' & not the 'rod', the notes on the site said it was connected to alchemy & the fact that sperm is an important part of that, making the Magician (ok, Bataleur, if I spelled that right) more presonally involved in his magic. Other woodcuts only show a blobby thing there, with no clear indication of what it is.

jmd	27 Jan 2004
Ooops - I did? must be a male thing given the context... you know, not wanting to really talk about it... but on a more serious note: On the Noblet version, his right hand, as on many other versions of the card, looks like what may also be described as the complement of what he holds, pointing towards it, with his left hand... The card image linked should make the sexual reference obvious. The whole thread on I Le Bateleur, which began what has since become its own Forum, makes for interesting reading - well, maybe I'm bias. It is, in its own way, a thread which transforms a small discussion into areas which have since surfaced with great and mighty transformations, in a Forum area filled with wonderful, though often more difficult, discussions - which many of us would welcome more participants to. Please remember that in that area, if a post is made and answers are not immediately forthcoming, it is a reflection that the question, though maybe appearing 'simple', is profound and quite difficult (I mention this as I know some have in the past felt hurt or neglected). Looking forward to your important reflections in the relevant threads - or indeed, new threads!

firemaiden	27 Jan 2004
And what? jmd, you didn't want to share the secret that the falling spheres on the Tower card are really petit fours? (...I won't forgive you...)

HudsonGray	27 Jan 2004
"areas which have since surfaced with great and mighty transformations" Ok, now considering the topic 'at hand' tell me this wasn't a Freudian slip! Sooo.........the Magician is getting into pornographic territory somewhat. Hmm. Firemaiden, I thought they were mothballs! But I suppose Truffles aren't out of the question. I found some history over here: http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards43.htm with arrows showing how the tarot progressed around Europe. It was tougher finding text online dealing with what the actual image on the card was and how it connected to the Medieval times it was shown in/done for. Such as one page I found (and lost again) that had a lot of text about the Fool, as he was on pilgrimage during Lent in some earlier decks, then was changed to represent someone poor but not on pilgrimage, etc. And here was another bit: http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:cRaQxQqDOBMJ:www.astroprofile.com/tarotdocs/MajorArcana.pdf+conver+marseilles+magician&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

~X~	27 Jan 2004
Race you to the threads, Hudson Gray. ;) Thank you for posting the questions. There is always so much I don't see on my own with these cards!

The Marseilles questions thread was originally posted on 26 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.