Numerical ordering of the Justice and Strength cards
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| musclegirl |
17 Jan 2004 |
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Hi guys,
Numerological considerations aside, I'm wondering why it MATTERS whether the Strength and Justice cards are numbered Eight and Eleven, respectively, or vice versa.
Isn't this a case of much ado about 'nothin' ? After all, the ordering of the tarot trumps has changed over the centuries before it became crystallized in influential decks such as the Tarot of Marseilles.
For those, who care about and use the tarot with numerological associations, I guess it can matter. But for the rest of us ....
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| firemaiden |
17 Jan 2004 |
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If the numerological associations don't matter to you, then I see why you wouldn't care about the placement one way or the other. But to most of us, the numerology does matter...
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| musclegirl |
17 Jan 2004 |
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Hi firemaiden,
Thanks for replying.
That brings up the second part of what was concerning me.
The numerological implications for Justice and Strength based on 8 and 11, respectively, could be different than based on 11 and 8, respectively. But are they, necessarily, better and more true? Presumably someone versed in numerology (which is not me) might be able to show that the numbering 11 and 8 can also be interesting and meaningful for Justice and Strength.
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| firemaiden |
17 Jan 2004 |
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Hi Muscle Girl, there are several very good threads answering this very question already.
These two are excellent, with very thorough discussions:
May I refer you to my Table of Contents in the Using Tarot Forum? You will find many more threads listed on this subject.
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| jmd |
17 Jan 2004 |
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Thanks Firemaiden... I really enjoyed re-visiting those threads...
I also personally think that musclegirl here asks a very fundamental and important question - and one which is really worth asking.
Some recent decks, such as baba-prague's wonderful Tarot of Prague have avoided numbering their major Arcana precisely because of the various strongly held views one way or another. Some who hold strong views will undoubtedly also think that avoiding numeration is also unjustified.
As I mention in another thread (linked by Firemaiden earlier), it isn't only numerological considerations which are important, but the way the numbers order the deck. In this sense alone, the ordinal number makes for important reflections when one looks at the sequence of the Major Arcana. Indeed, this may in turn impact on how one sees a card in a reading.
For example, if I draw a single card - let us say the Hierophant/Pope, then I may, knowing well the sequence, also lead on my interpretation with mentioning that a choice will need to be made (anticipating the card which follows). Here, of course, I have already assumed much. On the one hand, that the card which follows is VI the Lovers, and that it has, as one of its 'meaning', choice.
If the Justice card is drawn, what numbering one gives it will give it certain impact - at least for those who have used the deck for a while and studied its Major Arcana sequence. Does it form part of the first half, or the second half of the numerated deck? Just this also makes for quite varied insights.
Numbering it also has other ramifications apart, again, from important numerological ones. If I numerate my cards in Roman, then VIII already 'connects' me with the other 'III' cards (III the Empress, XIII (Death), and XVIII the Moon - and of these, especially the last). Quite varied results and insights are gained from this - and the two cards of this thread gain a 'connection' to other cards depending very much on how we inter-connect them given their cardinal, as well as ordinal, value.
In another thread, I think it was Alex which mentioned the 'shadow' of the Lovers card (numbered six) as the Devil card (numbered fifteen). If one uses our Hindo-Arabic numerals, and 'reduce' numerals to a single digit, then this connection does result - whether seen as 'shadow' or not is another question. Still, the method and reflections again has huge impact on how and with which other cards Justice and Strength will be seen and understood to be connected. In this case, the connected cards are the Star (numbered seventeen, which 'reduces' to eight), and the High Priestess/Papess and Judgement (numbered two and twenty, each 'reducing' to two, as does eleven).
Again, if one never studied these in any ordered sequence, never read books which did such, nor considered numerological aspects, then neither their numbering, nor sequence, would really matter. Tarot, however, does have such sequential considerations which both impacts on our understanding of the cards, and connects various cards in particular ways.
Their numbering, therefore, does not only matter, but has implications beyond what we may be immediately aware of - at least in my opinion.
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| maya |
18 Jan 2004 |
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dear musclegirl,
why do you post not caring about numbers, anyway?
Maybe you sense something behind it? Ha, ha?
To me it is an important and, yet, a difficult issue.
The Pythagoreans saw number as a mathematical expression of how the universe is composed.
So it has its value.
Personally I do not like the exchanged numbers 8 and 11 in the R.W.D.
I just draw very little basics.
In German language it is clear:
»Acht« meaning the number eight and to take care.
The Pythagoreans saw 8 as a very balanced number.
As an expression of love and justice, of equilibrium.
11 was the number of evil, of shortcomings, of troubles.
So it takes power to approach.
We can say it is duality as widely as possible stretched apart.
But the card shows a maiden fairly in control of her world.
And this is power which appears as a dynamic in-between.
Crowley calls it lust which is the force of exchange between woman and man,
heaven and earth.
And it takes this lust to create life and beauty.
There are deeper meanings which I am not capable to say.
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| Alex |
18 Jan 2004 |
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Apparently, Waite swapped keys 8 and 11 in order to keep a harmonic and consistent relationship of nine digits between cards that, according to him, convey similar ideas, in different "planes".
If you order your Waite-based deck in nine colums, from 1-21, you'll see that XI-Justice stays nine digits away from II-The High Priestess and XX-The Judgement (please refer to the number nine thread I have just started). Additionally, Waite's deck portrays the High Priestess between two collumns, just as Justice, what is not the case in the preceeding decks, for either one. The pillars also suggest a connection between the HP and Justice. Such connection was created, that I know of, to comply with the special associations/meanings Waite saw for these cards. Whether VII- is Strength or justice is of importance only if you want to use Wate's system in order to read the cards. In my oppinion, it's convenient and coherent, but what do I know.
Alex.
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The Numerical ordering of the Justice and Strength cards thread was originally posted on 17 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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