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Studying Non-Scenic Pips - Fives

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.



Diana  09 Jan 2004 
Here kicks off our study group, I suppose.

Before we start discussing the elements (either here on in a separate thread) I suggest we do a brainstorming on the number 5. Here is what I found in my notes, and in some books. I'm not going to bother to give every single reference, because anyway, most authors on the Tarot have stolen their ideas from other authors, or been inspired by other authors, so in the end we're all just using each other's ideas anyway. But when I translate whole paragraphs, I give the reference.

Non-scenic pips – the 5s

I translate from Carole Sédillot’s book “Ombres et Lumières du Tarot” :

« One of the important symbolic aspects of this number is the one that links it to Man. (………..) The Four, assimilated to matter, describes man and his incarnation and his materiality. The added unity, which leads to the Five, gives man the possibility to discover his soul.»

(see Leonardo da Vinci’s famous painting in the attachment).


………. Fire………

Air…….MAN…….Water

………..Earth……….

For the Pythagoreans, the five represents the Ether or the Quintessence.

The fifth Hebrew letter is “Hé” and is sometimes called Domus (temple or home).

It is an odd number, and therefore Active. (Odd numbers are Active, and the even numbers are Passive.)

5 is the number that represents the exact centre between Man and the Divine.

Alain Brêthes, in his book “L’interprétation des Arcanes Mineurs des Nombres et des Quatre Eléments” says (I translate): “The Middle Path [represented by the 5] is formed by the reunification of two forces considered to be antagonistic. The 5 evokes the extremity of the crises the disciple needs to confront during his incarnation. In love with freedom, always in movement, the 5 announces a full and rich life. It incites man to progress consciously on his luminous path, to discover new horizons, to dare separate himself from a limitative collective unconscious in order to express his own particular genius….”

The 5s mediate between heaven and earth. On the 5th day, God created the Fish and the Birds.

5s are dynamic, they experiment, and through their experimentation adapt and change. They allow for growth and freedom.

The 5 represents the Pentagramme to which the 5 physical senses are attributed. A Free Mason could tell me if I am correct in saying that in the middle of their Pentagramme is a G – representing Gnosis or Sacred Geometry.

5 is the symbol of Microcosm.

Fives are: ether, the number of Man, evolution, protection, spirituality, faith, a passage way. 


skytwig  09 Jan 2004 
Personally, I believe the 5 is the least understood number. the ancient Chinese practice of acupuncture is based on a system of five elements; we have 5 appendages on our hands and feet; 5 is the symbol of the human being; 5 is the symbol of Balance (with a fulcrum).... the Ultimate Balance, really.....

Yet, the interpreters of the Tarot generally liken it to the place of stress and conflict.....

The other misinterpreted number is 10, the doubling of 5.... again we see intense conflict......

I personally believe that 5 should be a peaceful number..... a place of rest.....

But maybe that is because I love the pentagram..... :)

It is possible that humans depend on the apparent solidity of simple even numbers.... maybe the unevens 'look' threatening somehow....

Without 'scenes' to distract us, however, 5 has a greater chance of revealing its magnificence!!!! :) 


~X~  09 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana

It is an odd number, and therefore Active. (Odd numbers are Active, and the even numbers are Passive.)



Lightbulb moment. Believe it or not, I had never heard that before. As soon as I read it Aces, Three's, Seven's and Nines flashed in my head. Then the evens. It makes sense. Especially being that in a few numerology books and websites that I've read, 5's are described as freedom, travel, expansiveness and adventure. Much easier to reconcile than the 5 of cups or pentacles in the RW deck....hardly active. 


Jewel-ry  09 Jan 2004 
This makes sense to me. The only book I have, which includes anything about number, says that 5's represent change, activity, novelty, adaptability, unpredictability and a dislike of routine!

The fifth sephira is Geburah, severity or judgement

Many flowers have five petals

Five is associated with Mercury/Hermes. Hermes was the god of commerce, patron of travelers. He had wings on his hat and on his heels and is sometimes asociated with the Magician.

Five represents the potential for future growth.

Thats all I can find at the moment

J :) 


Diana  09 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by skytwig
the interpreters of the Tarot generally liken it to the place of stress and conflict.....


skytwig: Moving out of the comfort of the 4 can be stressful. Or not? 


ros  09 Jan 2004 
I have seen where 5 is balancing 2 +1+2 =5 5's balance two even numbers or both sides.

-scattered energy
-choas
-mentally alert, rebounds quickly from blows of fate
-freedom from routine

5 can see both ways. If you cross the five in the middle from side to side, the top half can take energy in from the right. The bottom half can take energy from the left. 5's can see both sides & the number can be very flexible. 


skytwig  09 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
skytwig: Moving out of the comfort of the 4 can be stressful. Or not?
I guess......... but, to me it is more like the bud of a plant, the product of work, the place of growth..... that can be stressful, but isn't that a good stress, an 'aha' stress, a break into greater freedom stress?

I keep seeing the Da Vinci image..... WHOLENESS!! :) 


skytwig  09 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by ros
5 can see both ways. If you cross the five in the middle from side to side, the top half can take energy in from the right. The bottom half can take energy from the left. 5's can see both sides & the number can be very flexible.
Exactly!!!! :) 


Diana  09 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by skytwig
but isn't that a good stress, an 'aha' stress, a break into greater freedom stress?


It can be good if one remains flexible. If one resists the stress, one can break. What I mean is, if we accept that five is an Active number.... and the person remains passive. Ouch!

ros: Chaos? Isn't that a bit too extreme?

Jewel-ry: I wonder where your source got the Hermes reference from. I'm going to do some research and see if I can found out where this could come from.

ros: freedom, expansiveness, travel, adventure... that makes sense to me. Fits in nicely with Jewel-ry's keywords as well. 


Jewel-ry  09 Jan 2004 
Diana,
I have taken this from Sandra A Thompson Pictures from the Heart. She hasn't referenced it she just says 'Five is traditionally associated with Hermes/Mercury'. There is a reference to the God/patron part too - Graves, Greek myths p24. Which part were you querying?

J :) 


Diana  09 Jan 2004 
Jewel-ry: I don't understand why Hermes/Mercury is associated with the number five. I'm not saying he isn't - but I remain sceptical until I find some more references to this. And also references that explain why. 


Jewel-ry  09 Jan 2004 
Diana,
Now you've got me all 'investigational'. I need to know too. I'll give you a race....first one to find out gets..... a bar of SWISS chocolate :D.......Ready, Set, GO

J :) 


ros  09 Jan 2004 
-chaos
People who do not like change or stepping outside of their comfort zone, any change will bring chaos into their life.
Yes or No?

I have that the planet Mercury rules the #5 .
Is this where Hermes fits in?

5 related to The Hierophant
If The Hierophant reveils what the High Priestess hides & if the Hierophant takes things to a new level, blends ideas spiritually & opens doors to spiritual lessons MABEE the 5 here means that we are fighting to stay within our beliefs & do not welcome the change.
If The Hierophant is the Seeker of Truths mabee the 5 is changing our truths which we are not understanding of them as yet.

I may be all wrong here but it is just some ideas. 


ros  09 Jan 2004 
P.S.

5 is the explorer
the number of Constructive Freedom
5 are very resourceful because 5 likes to try everything once for their own research.

O.K. I'm done this 5 is making me chaotic. lol 


skytwig  09 Jan 2004 
NUMBER 5
Adventure, change, freedom, exploration,
variety, sensuality, unattached, curious, experienced, periodicity, knowledge seeker, knowledge teacher, traveler, imagination, child-like, playful.

Tarot ...................... Hierophant
Astrology................ Mercury, Venus, Taurus, Leo
Rune....................... Raidho
I Ching................... #15 Ch'ien
Tree of Life.............. Geburah, Severity (Power)
Hebrew Letter......... He', Nun
Shamanism............. Bull Elephant
Alchemy.................. Earth/Man
Element.................. Air, Fire
Aura....................... Earth tones
Colors..................... Blue-green (turquoise), Orange
Gemstone............... Turquoise, Ruby
Musical Note........... G
Plane...................... E,W-Physical, N-Mental
Temperament......... E-Creative/Inspired, N,W-Dual/Mutable
Months................... May
Week Day.............. Tuesday

Found this at:Numberquest 


Jewel-ry  09 Jan 2004 
OK Diana,

The only thing I can find is that Hermes played draughts with the Moon to win back time and thus increase the calendar year by 5 days. Although I can find this repeated in numerous places. I dont know who decided that Hermes was linked to the number.

J :) 


Diana  09 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by ros
-chaos
People who do not like change or stepping outside of their comfort zone, any change will bring chaos into their life.
Yes or No?

I have that the planet Mercury rules the #5 .
Is this where Hermes fits in?


Yes. :)

skytwig: Interesting web-site but I am very sceptical about a lot of the things on it - amongst others, the Day of the Week, the Aura and the Colours (plus other stuff). If someone could explain this to me, I could accept it, but not before.

Jewel-ry: I am wondering if the reference to Hermes/Mercury did not originate in someone's either fertile or very ignorant mind - and they confused Mercury the planet, with Mercury the Roman God. I suggest until we get some reliable sources on this, we put it aside for the moment. What do you think? (I will continue looking though.) 


Jewel-ry  09 Jan 2004 
Fair enough Diana, but things like that are niggling aren't they?

J :) 


skytwig  09 Jan 2004 
Symbologists and Numerologists love thoroughly detailed associations.... Check out The Talisman Magick Workbook by Kala & Ketz Pajeon..... they have weekdays, flowers, etc for everything.... I guess it's very Wiccan, actually. Not sure... but where there is a number, there are going to be associations......

Quote:
Jewel-ry: I am wondering if the reference to Hermes/Mercury did not originate in someone's either fertile or very ignorant mind - and they confused Mercury the planet, with Mercury the Roman God. I suggest until we get some reliable sources on this, we put it aside for the moment. What do you think? (I will continue looking though.)
Keep looking, but put this Hermes info on back burner for now......

Also... I was wondering if we could have some attachments for pictures of these 'non scenic' cards........ :) 


Aoife  09 Jan 2004 
A question:

[i’m going to struggle to be succinct]

My reference materials give a range of definitions for the #5....... including information from a range of cultural and historical origins.

Am I right in assuming, that those who conceived of the Tarot, would have drawn their ‘knowledge’ from sources known to them...... and that certain cultural traditions will not have been known to them?

Could this account for the discrepancies..... sometimes contradictory definitions of numbers?

So when considering, say the #5, should I take into account only those sources which would have been available at the time of Tarot’s conception?

Have I made any sense? Or am I making all of this horribly over complicated and missing the point? 


Jewel-ry  09 Jan 2004 
Hi everyone,

Just a thought. I do think that we need to stay focused on the aim here otherwise we will get bombarded with so much info that we will not see the wood for the trees. Lets not forget what we want this information for. I think this could be a really interesting thread but I personally want to get as much from it as possible and that means concentrating on the task at hand. I think that where there are contradictory meanings, we will each make our own decisions when we look at the cards. I do not think we have to agree. We can each take what we want from the discussions.

J :) 


~X~  09 Jan 2004 
I have a Pythagorean Tarot Table that lists Hermes and Mercury under 5. As to why, I can only guess. I know that Hermes is the Greek God of communication, he was the messenger to the gods, and in astrology, communication is linked to Mercury. If I'm not mistaken, he's also the god of travel. I'm assuming they're connecting him to travel, adventure and freedom that are sometimes listed for 5. 


Rusty Neon  09 Jan 2004 
Hi Aoife ... See my very long discussion of these issues in a recent post of mine which you can find by clicking:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=216386&highlight=one+to+ten+numerology#post216386

Then keep scrolling there for reply posts.


Quote:
Originally posted by Aoife
Am I right in assuming, that those who conceived of the Tarot, would have drawn their ‘knowledge’ from sources known to them...... and that certain cultural traditions will not have been known to them?

Could this account for the discrepancies..... sometimes contradictory definitions of numbers?

So when considering, say the #5, should I take into account only those sources which would have been available at the time of Tarot’s conception?
 


Lee  10 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Aoife
Am I right in assuming, that those who conceived of the Tarot, would have drawn their ‘knowledge’ from sources known to them...... and that certain cultural traditions will not have been known to them?
From a historical perspective, there's a mountain of evidence that the pip cards were used only for game playing, and no evidence at all that they were thought of in an esoteric manner. So when we assign meanings to the pip cards, numerological or otherwise, it seems likely that we can't avoid interpreting the cards from a modern perspective. I think the only way to honor the intentions of the conceivers would be to play games with the cards and not read with them. Historical arguments can go on forever, of course, but I just wanted to give that perspective.

-- Lee 


ros  10 Jan 2004 
How is this thread relating to the chaos of the # 5. lol 


firemaiden  10 Jan 2004 
Lee has made an interesting point relative to Aoife's question -- that we needn't worry ourselves too much about anachronist interpretations of the pip's numbers.

It frees us up to explore all number associations, be they antique or modern.

I saw the number associations skytwig posted, and was surprised by the musical note association G to 5 --

Then I realized, I should't be too surprised... (LOL) -- in solfège, if you call the note C "do", then, Do (C)=1, Re (D)=2, Mi (E) = 3, Fa (f) =4, and Sol (G) = 5. However, if you use the system of "moveable Do" where Do does not represent "C", but rather the root (first note) of the key signature (scale), then the number "5" could correspond to any note at all, depending upon the starting point.

There it goes again, that word --- "it depends..." 


skytwig  10 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
I think one must remember that this thread has nothing to do with History, or the Origins of Tarot....

This thread is dealing with numbers. ....

However, I do believe that numbers can be read esoterically and I think we should not exclude this from our discussion... the majority of us are not Mathematicians and therefore will find it hard to sift through the junk that one can find on various websites to find the Gold that is surely there somewhere.
Just a few questions.........

* Who decides what the 'gold' is? What are the standards here?

* What exactly are we looking for..... if not history & archetypes? Impressions only? Numbers, in and of themselves? Their shapes? 


mercenary30  10 Jan 2004 
I found the meaning of Five to be 'Letting go of outworn attitudes. Loss or regret.' in a book describing the meanings to the Tarot de Marseilles pips and suits.

To me, five seems to be like a milestone. The end in a small way, the fulcrum, mid point or what ever you want to call it. But not the destination. A point to quickly readjust, prepare for the next steps, look back to see where we have been and what has followed thus far. Then with this quick input, analyze, make adjustments, and move forward to Six.

Gee, where did that come from? 


ros  10 Jan 2004 
#5
to gain control over the five senses, after which the sixth sense, intuition develops.
-the 5 wounds of Christ (suffering)

A card spread I use sometimes-
1-fire
2-water
3-earth
4-air

& # 5
Spirit 


Moonbow*  11 Jan 2004 
There is alot of information here and there are many opinions. I have read it all and now I'm gonna make up my own mind! I see 5 as the number where things start to go wrong/pause/slow down/transition/stop and think time/a Gate. So this is how I will use it for my non-scenic pips and I'm sure with more and more practice I will find this to evolve and maybe even change.

I also like what Mercenary 30 has said.

Moonbow* 


ros  11 Jan 2004 
4 is square & one more makes 5
disrupts the balance of 4

2 more cents lol 


ros  11 Jan 2004 
The letters of the alphabet that are associated with 5 are
letters e,n,w

2 more cents as I leave this thread running lol 


Alex  11 Jan 2004 
I thought the number four was the one to represent “the microcosm” (whatever that means).

The number five would be the “mesocosm” between the “microcosm” and the “macrocosm”.

Alex.

Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
5 is the symbol of Microcosm.
 


jmd  11 Jan 2004 
Five is sometimes said to represent the microcosm due to one of its possible shapes: the pentagramme :OL - which is considered to represent the archetypal human being ('archetypal' not in its later Jungian sense).

In that sense, five represents the microcosm - the world (in its greater sense than 'merely' earth or universe) as reflected or incorporated within the human being. 


Alex  11 Jan 2004 
Uhm. Thanks for the clarification.

Alex.

I'd been reading Richard Roberts' "Tarot revelations" and

Quote:
Originally posted by jmd
Five is sometimes said to represent the microcosm due to one of its possible shapes: the pentagramme :OL - which is considered to represent the archetypal human being ('archetypal' not in its later Jungian sense).

In that sense, five represents the microcosm - the world (in its greater sense than 'merely' earth or universe) as reflected or incorporated within the human being.
 


skytwig  12 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by skytwig
I guess......... but, to me it is more like the bud of a plant, the product of work, the place of growth..... that can be stressful, but isn't that a good stress, an 'aha' stress, a break into greater freedom stress?

I keep seeing the Da Vinci image..... WHOLENESS!! :)


Again, if this number represents a microcosm, it is a number of WHOLENESS.... it has a completeness in it, as say a growing fetus.... I do not understand the despairing stress that scenic pips place on the 5.... and I think we are adding that to the 5 in non scenic pips.

If we were to look at the five without the influence of tarot cards we have viewed, what would we see??

I really don't think 5 is as stressful as artists have interpreted it!

I see it more as a tension of growth and that is far different from such things as the RWS fiveof pentacles.....

I am pushing this point because I believe we need to get as clear as we can in looking at this number...... 


ros  12 Jan 2004 
I put my replys on because of my understanding of the number 5. I have to go back & find out what Non-Scenic Pips are & what I'm doing on this thread. lol

No offence taken,
ros 


Alex  12 Jan 2004 
I'm still in the microcosm here. Hold on a minute. Where did this "wholeness" com from?

Number 5, if associated with man, and also, if representing the connection, the bridge between man and the macrocosm, and as an even number, represents a volatile state, a stransition. I can understand it as a spring into a higher conscience level, a higher plane so as so say, but never as wholeness.

If we look at it as this "bridge", then it becomes easy to understand the misery associated with number 5 in the W-Smith imagery: nothing like a deal of misery to connect man with God. "They wondered for 5 days and 5 nights with little to eat and to drink and THEN, then they called your name" (bible, somewhere, can't recall).

The numbers I've learned to associate with "wholeness" are the numbers 9 and 10. Nine, because all of the multiples of nine return to itself. Ten, because it returns to the beginning, to the origins, to one.

Alex-the-confused

Quote:
Originally posted by skytwig
[b] Again, if this number represents a microcosm, it is a number of WHOLENESS.... it has a completeness in it, as say a growing fetus.... I do not understand the despairing stress that scenic pips place on the 5.... and I think we are adding that to the 5 in non scenic pips.
B]
 


Alex  12 Jan 2004 
Diana

I think Lee got a point and what he is saying pertains this thread more than than you're giving credit.

What I think he's saying is that numerology got incorporated to the Tarot as an aid to divination posteriorly to the creation of the non-illustrated pips. Therefore, numerological associations have little to do with the Tarot of Marseilles and the decks that preceeded ir or were contemporary to it.

Any associations between numbers and divination with Tarot decks are a posteriori associations, that's what Lee may be trying to say, and it's not the first time I've seen him saying it.

Alex.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
From a historical perspective, there's a mountain of evidence that the pip cards were used only for game playing, and no evidence at all that they were thought of in an esoteric manner. So when we assign meanings to the pip cards, numerological or otherwise, it seems likely that we can't avoid interpreting the cards from a modern perspective. I think the only way to honor the intentions of the conceivers would be to play games with the cards and not read with them. Historical arguments can go on forever, of course, but I just wanted to give that perspective.
-- Lee
 


Lee  12 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex
What I think he's saying is that numerology got incorporated to the Tarot as an aid to divination posteriorly to the creation of the non-illustrated pips. Therefore, numerological associations have little to do with the Tarot of Marseilles and the decks that preceeded ir or were contemporary to it.

Any associations between numbers and divination with Tarot decks are a posteriori associations, that's what Lee may be trying to say, and it's not the first time I've seen him saying it.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. :)

The point I'm trying to make (badly) is that no one method of assigning meanings to the pips is inherently better than any other, since they're all anachronistic. I have no problem with numerological associations, but I don't see them as intrinsically better, but rather simply a matter of preference.

-- Lee 


jmd  13 Jan 2004 
In another thread titled Platonic Solids and the Tree of Life (now located within the Kabalah section of the Magic Forum - and restricted, I believe, to subscribers), I once long ago mused about some work I had previously undertaken in various thought experiments.

Essentially, it is imagining an increasing number of points upon a sphere, ordering them equally apart.

From one through to four, various forms of stability are found. As soon as you reach five, however, a dynamism ensues - essentially perpetual motion takes place, as each point seeks to move to equalise its distance from each of the others.

In two dimensions, five also yields some wonderful results, for it is the first shape which also permits its sides (of equal length) to cross themselves - into, in this case, a pentagramme.

Relating this to harmonious sections, the pentagramme includes within it numerous 'divine' - or Golden - sections or proportions (for the mathematically inclined, [1+(5^[1/2])]/2).

For me, five has a peculiar dynamic content which cannot be 'contained', and seeks to forever point beyond itself. For those who want to link it to the V of the Pope, it is similarly 'structured', for it properly points towards the spiritual, and not the confines of the establishment to which some look.

Written in Roman, five is even written as half of ten (which may perhaps be seen as completion) - the 'V' is only half of the 'X'.

On reflections as to how it relates to the human body - which it does more so than seemingly many other numerals - it relates to, obviously, the five fingers, but also, as has previously been mentioned, the general form of the human being (as 'star-shape').

It is also, to my mind at least, closely connected to life and the force of its striving. Not only through its affinity with the Golden Section does it connect to much in plant growth, but it also seems to incorporate within its very 'fiveness' an indication for the Divine, for the Ego (in its true sense of 'I' - not its altered form as used popularly or in psychology).

Thus, I see the number five as very much embodying motion, force, and struggles as life seeks to manifest... 


Lee  13 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
I understood what he was saying, Alex. (If we continue this discussion, perhaps we should start up a new thread so as we stay on track with the 5's here.)

By the way, we are not studying the Tarot of Marseille in this study group. We are studying non-scenic pips.
I'd just like to point out that my two posts in this thread both are responding directly to specific questions or points raised by others. It's not that I'm deliberately trying to be off-topic. I can understand the desire of anyone who starts a thread to try to guide the thread, but it seems to me a thread should be given a little room and flexibility.

-- Lee 


Lee  13 Jan 2004 
You know, something just occurred to me. This thread is entitled "Studying Non-Scenic Pips." Why does it need to be restricted to numerological approaches? As both Rusty Neon and I and others have mentioned in other threads, there are several other approaches to assigning meanings to pip cards besides numerological ones. Perhaps the title should be changed to "Studying Numerological Approaches to Non-Scenic Pips." (This is a serious suggestion, not trying to be facetious.)

-- Lee 


Aoife  13 Jan 2004 
I think starting another thread to look at numerological approaches is a useful suggestion, Diana and Lee. I felt bad about going off topic with a general question earlier on in this thread, which of course is looking specifically at the 5s.

What do others think? If there's general agreement, maybe the moderator could split off into a new thread those posts not specifically dealing with the #5. 


Moongold  13 Jan 2004 
Very interesting so far. I think we can use numerology in illustrated pips as well. But this thread is about unillustrated pips.

I have always seen FIVE as half way though the cycle of 1 to 10 and therefore a pivotal point. The meaning of the pivotal point can be intuitive depending on the context of the reading. Fives can affirm or challenge.

In 5 Swords (RWS) to me there is a moral dilemma. for example. With 5 Pentacles, you have a choice to remain an outsider or not ...and so on.

With regard to the pivotal point - maybe think of change, resourcefulness, stress, struggle, interaction, communication - whatever.

The meaning of the FIVE could depend on the element too.

5 is made up of 1 & 4 as well so 14 could be seen to shadow 5 but this probably relates more to the Major Arcana.

It is quite important to say that all things are connected, and that these cards should be read alongside the other cards in the reading.

Moongold 


~X~  13 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
The original inspiration for this study group was initiated by a post made my ~X~ in which he mentioned his difficulty in reading "non-illustrated pips".


Is this where I casually mention that I'm female? :D 


Alex  13 Jan 2004 
Five are the days we got to go to work, and it's only Tues.

Alex. 


Diana  14 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by ~X~
Is this where I casually mention that I'm female? :D


Yes, and you could include it in your profile so that people know! :) 


Aoife  14 Jan 2004 
I had expected to find some disparity in definition across cultures........ but found few differences and many shared views about this number - particularly the connection with the divine and the physical manifestation of man and his spiritual quest:
  • The symbol of the universe...... vertical and horizontal axes passing through the same centre.........four cardinal points plus the centre

Found in Japanese symbolism.
The Ancient Mexican belief that the end of the world will come when evil spirits from the four corners descend on the centre and annihilate man.
The symbolism of the crossroads [found in many cultures] a dangerous place, haunted by the dead.
  • The scared marriage
  • [hieros gamos] ....... the union between the principles of heaven and of the [magna mater, great mother earth] ......... the sum of the first even [passive] and odd [active] number...... 2 + 3 = 5

The marriage of yin and yang in Chinese symbolism
The Pythagorean number of marriage
The Muslim marriage number
  • Symbolic of Man..... the control of human bodily structure...... the body, the four limbs and head...... the hand, four fingers and thumb

The da Vinci drawing
The Chinese ideogram of man
St Hildegard of Bingen’s theory.
The Maya hieroglyphic showing a hand representing 5.
  • The pentagram or five pointed star

In Hermetic symbolism, at the centre of the cross [composed of the four elements] is placed the five-pointed star and the five-petalled flower....... representative of ether or the quintessence.
In Hindu symbolism, a symbol of Shiva
  • The centre, harmony and balance, order and perfection. The connection with the divine.

The number of the centre in Chinese symbolism....... 5 universal laws, 5 colours, 5 flavours, 5 musical tones, 5 metals, 5 internal organs, 5 planets, 5 senses
In Japanese symbolism, the 5 qualities of knowledge possessed by the supreme Buddha......... the stages of which the initiate must aspire to attain enlightenment....... and thus, integrated perfection.
The five deities of the Celtic pantheon, the five provinces of Ireland.......the symbol of totality.
The Maya symbol of perfection
The coming of the fifth sun in Aztec symbolism to represent the creation and manifestation of the world, and the awakening of consciousness..... thus symbolising human-world-consciousness.
The Ancient Mexican connection with self-sacrifice and resurrection...... the sacrifices of warriors whose blood fed the sun.
The Central American maize god brought back to life 5 days after symbolic death.
Found in Hindu symbolism...... the number of Shiva, the Transformer, Lord of the Universe, master of the 5 regions.
In Central America, the number of the maize god [often depicted with an open hand]..... the first shoots of the maize appearing 5 days after the seed is planted.
Similarly the Ancient Peruvians’ belief that all things providing nourishment sprouted five days after planting. And that the dead would some to life again 5 days after death.
The Maya believed the soul was taken to heaven after 5 days.
The Muslim number of keys to the Koranic mystery, five hours of prayer, the five elements in the pilgrimage [hajj], the five types of fasting, five motives for ablution, five dispensations for the holy day.

Sources:
”The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols” Chevalier & Gheerbrant
“The Dictionary of Symbols” Circlot
and the vestiges of my memory of myths& legends, stories, cultural beliefs and practices.
 


~X~  14 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
Yes, and you could include it in your profile so that people know! :)


Sorry, I didn't realize it would be of any interest. Really, it's no big deal. 


Alex  18 Jan 2004 
Can we go to another number now? 


The Studying Non-Scenic Pips - Fives thread was originally posted on 09 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.

 
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