The Dying God/King/Healer

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Thirteen	21 Jan 2004
The discussion of the Hanged Man as "wounded Healer" has gotten a bit complex. We've wandered into a split between "Wounded God" myths and definitions of Healers. However, it has opened up interesting exporations into wounded/dying myths whether they feature kings, healers or gods and I thought a new thread might be in order. A couple of things occured to me as I explored some of these--things not new but perhaps worth musing over. I'd like to explore them, with your indulgence. For instance: It occurs to me that one of the reasons the dying/wounded god/king myths sometimes don't work too smoothly in a metaphorical sense is because the sex has been changed. The earliest dying god myth is that of Inana. Female. Let's look at this myth: The "god" has a wound that can't heal, but doesn't kill him. Often a three+ day suspension is involved in his dying--afterwards ressurection or transformation. Hmm. Someone who bleeds for three days but doesn't die and, afterwards is "resurrected." This is beginning to sound familiar. Begins to make a lot of sense, doesn't it? Especially if you consider a few things from back in Humanity's tribal days. For example, that in hunter-gatherer tribes, where nursing or pregnant woman are most likey to be gathering plants and such, would know the medicines, be the healers of those returning wounded from the hunt. Yet once a month, they have these mystical bleedings, wounded, it seems, themselves; but they cannot heal themselves. Wounded healers. And consider this: in a small tribe, the women's cycles would sync. That means they'd get their periods all together. If they seperated from the men at such times, then you have this interesting period. Once a month, the women go into seclusion, suspension, for about 3 days. Further, it's thought that among early agricultural tribes, women may have bled on the Earth to help the crops grow. The god's blood = restoration of the land. The metaphor works so much better with a girl, don't ya think? But guys will be guys. They have to get in on this myth. But how to make it work with a guy? It gets a little muddy. If you have, say the Fisher King, then the wounded King and the land that's wounded with him, are healed by an outside source. If you have a Christ figure, you have a wounded god who dies rather than being healed--but death brings ressurection and restoration of the land. And if you have Osiris, the god dies but engenders a son to restore the land. This bring us to yet another intersting twist in the metaphor. Going back to women, while menstruation might have been mysterious, it was figured out pretty quick that when a woman didn't get her period, a baby was on the way. And when she did, a baby was not on the way. Similarly, the wounded GOD is often wounded close to his most, er, manly part. The Fisher King, for example, is wounded in the thighs. The Egyptians, who didn't fool around, are pretty blunt. Osiris is cut to pieces, and Isis is able to find all the pieces and put him together except for one, particular piece (which in some versions of the myth was eaten by a fish). So she makes a golden phallis which allows her to have sex with the restored (but still on his way to the land of the dead) Osiris and give birth to Horus. The metaphor thus becomes more clear. The wounding, male or female, is a loss of fertility. In a male, more to the point, it's a loss of masculinity, potency, the right to hold the kingship. And the tale now becomes a story of our old god/king/priest (healer) dies so a new, young, potent god/king/priest can take his place. That the wound is often caused by an arrow or lance emphasizes this--a wound taken in battle, signaling that the king can no longer hold the throne. A tribal king must be strong and potent, or his tribe will be defeated and destroyed by other tribes, the lands will be laid waste. So if he's losing in battle, unable to be a man, a new, young king MUST take over, for everyone's sake. Thus, the old one's death leads to ressurection and new power, often in the form of a son (or surogate son--as with Chiron dying and passing on his mantle of immortal healer to Askiepos, demigod of doctors). Very much in the cycle of things--which might be why Wang mentions that the Hanged Man, card of the dying god, is a period when the Wheel of Fortune stops spinning for a moment. It's that pause between old god and new, between the moon's dissappearence and reappearence, between a woman's days of fertility. Taking us back to the Hanged Man, it's a remarkable moment of stillness, fallow, empty, yet filled with potential. Once it's ended, anything can happen.

firemaiden	22 Jan 2004
Very interesting post, Thirteen, thank you for this. You've gotten me thinking about the myth of Balder. (In the LS Viking death, Balder is Temperance). Is the dying God, and the theme of ressurection not also tied to the dying (and soon to be reborn) Sun?

lunalafey	22 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen The earliest dying god myth is that of Inana. Female. Let's look at this myth: The "god" has a wound that can't heal, but doesn't kill him. Often a three+ day suspension is involved in his dying--afterwards ressurection or transformation. Hmm. Someone who bleeds for three days but doesn't die and, afterwards is "resurrected." This is beginning to sound familiar. what timing! very appropiate subject for me for the day-lol...from the title I had no idea that it would go this direction sure does make alot of sense. I understand that the Hanged Man can also hold some intuitve aspects. You mention the 'suspention' women go into while they are mensturating- this is also a time for introspection and where the visions for the future good of the tribe are revield to the women. Lack of period is usually due to pregnancy, another form of suspention- the ovaries are suspended from being released, the embryo is suspended (and 'tied') within the womb- the end result, the rebirth of another life. thirteen- the latter part of your post reminds me of the natural law that keep lion prides strong and healthy, as well as wild horses. These groups of animals look to the male as thier protector and life replenisher- the group {females} wants to have a strong fit mate to ensure the survival of the families. When there is a challenger to the "king" among these animals, there is a stillness within the group, tense energies while the battle for the throne goes on, the females wait. Often these animals will die {XIII-} but the end result is potential; there is a soup of new genetics poured into the pool {XIV-} oh did I get carried away? sorry....I have not read the Hanged Man thread- forgive me...

Thirteen	22 Jan 2004
Quote: oh did I get carried away? sorry Not at all! Heh. This whole thead is me getting carried away. It was the darn Hanged Man thread's fault. Very stimulating conversation that's I'm loath to let end. That's the great thing about forums. You don't have to put down the coffee and go home. Firemaiden: Actually, the Sun doesn't often die and get reborn--at least not in regards to sunset, sunrise (I won't say never, just, surprisingly, not often). His boat may have to sail perilous seas through the night, maybe even though the land of the dead, face down monsters and such; or he might just have to put his horses and chariot away for the night (leaving his sister the moon to bring out hers)--but he doesn't usually die and get reborn. Not in the sense of growing old, nor taking a wound. Not usually. But there are a lot of myths out there. Closer to the dying and reborn sun god would be solstices--turn arounds in the year.

HudsonGray	22 Jan 2004
I haven't read the Hanged Man thread yet either. But I'm surprised you didn't mention the most popular book about this kind of myth (it belabored the point to death, but did cover the Roman/Greek verison of it). The Golden Bough. The entire thing is about myth, tribal connections, the death of the old & rebirth after that of the new, as a perpetual cycle. No mention (from what I remember, it's been over 15 years since I read it) of women in the position of the wounded God. I wonder, does Asia have myths like this? I try to watch the Campbell specials on Myth that PBS runs occasionally, they cover things like this & he went into a good deal of detail before covering the speculation in the program. Heroes, strong people, our species always has stories about these.

Thirteen	22 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray No mention (from what I remember, it's been over 15 years since I read it) of women in the position of the wounded God. It was written in 1922 (by Sir James George Frazer). To put it bluntly, I seriously doubt Sir James ever thought to take a look at myths like that of Innana or Persephone and extend his comparion of the dying god myth to them. It just wouldn't have been in his...patriarchal, eurocentric mind to do so. To him, any myth with a woman was probably disqualified from being a "dying god" myth. It's like that old riddle: "A boy is hit by a car. He's taken to the hospital. The doctor looks at him and says, 'It's my son!'--but the doctor is not the boy's father. How is this possible?" Back in the day, that riddle use to stump people. Now, we just shrug and say, "It's his mother, obviously," and we'd think someone a real idiot if they were flummoxed by it. But people don't see things that their culture raises them to be blind to. As for myths about menstruation--well, Sir James really wouldn't have thought about those! In short, I'm not all surprised that Sir James, in his otherwise wonderful book, failed to make that connection.

HudsonGray	22 Jan 2004
You know, something that bothered me even back in high school when I read that book, was that he didn't take into account all the outside influences that would have been working on his interpretation of the myth. I mean, Roman culture borrowed from everywhere. They had trade routes east to past Turkey, north all the way to the UK, got into Germany, Russia, down into the first section of northern Africa till the deserts stopped them, into Egypt, etc. Yet he only belabored the point from the Greek influence on the myth. Where was the Nordic side of things? The Spanish? The Celtic? The Middle Eastern influences? Each of those would have had something show up, for sure. You can't have pristine Roman myths without connection outside the actual Itallian country. By 75 AD people were really moving around a lot. They bought goods that came from India, Russia, etc. so you know there was cross cultural connections going on. Yes, he was a product of his time. Back then women didn't vote, couldn't live 'normally' without a man unless they were still in their parent's house, didn't work outside the home unless it was in one of the approved jobs like teacher, tutor, housecleaner. They were pretty shortsighted guys back then. Still, half the Roman myths involve women. He should have included them if he was any sort of scientist. Too bad. That book is still in print & supposed to be one of the first serious works on mythology.

Thirteen	23 Jan 2004
That the book is a product of its time doesn't negate whatever great connections he made. It just puts a few limits on it. ;)

isthmus nekoi	23 Jan 2004
oh! Great thread, Thirteen :) I'm sorry to bring a whole other tangent in here, but it's to reply to the question about Asian dying god healers which shall bring me back to Dionysos. I think it was Marco Polo that first encountered the pinata in China. Here, a fake bull was paraded about, smashed to bits and grain would pour out, symbolizing the sacrifice of the god to ensure the health of the land. Now, I asked the grandparents who grew up in villages about this and they said it was hogwash. But then again, Marco Polo is a lot older than them, and the grandparents were around when China was starting to develop. Anyways, does not the pinata sound very Dionysian? Dionysos does have links to Christ and Osiris. I know Christ and Dionysos sound really different, but consider these similarities: - dies and is reborn, is sacrificed - associated w/women - communion and drunken orgies both allude to cannabalism (take, drink, this is my blood which is shed for you) - association w/the vine Dionysos is also linked to shamanism, which in turn may be linked to healing. Now as for menstuating. Unfortunatly, I don't have any logical things to say to back this up, but there is incredible psychic power in it, I wish I could explain it. But this connection, Thirteen does make a lot of sense. And does link Persphone up to the wounded healer in that sense, I think. Also, it may be noted that puberty rites in general tend to be harsher on the guys b/c of their lack of the menstrual period. Is it the Australian aboriginals whose rites include cutting a slit down the shaft of the penis to symbolize menstruation?

Major Tom	23 Jan 2004
Grantled my friend Thirteen that Greek myth doesn't have a sun god who dies and resurects on a daily basis, the Romans certainly had one. Mythras was a sun god who died on a daily basis (or should that be nightly?) to be ressurected the following morning. Then there was Jesus, the sun of God, or was that the lamb? Baaa! There was that Star Trek episode that spoke of the Sun of God and we all knew they were talking about Jesus. In Rome, the Mythras cult was converted all at once when the Emperor (Constintine?) was converted. How simple it was to go from Mythras to Christos. :laugh: "Oh, ok". :laugh: "Yes, Mary, the Sun dies every night while you sleep and arises again when you awake". ;) "In between the Moon and Stars come out". :laugh:

HudsonGray	23 Jan 2004
The Egyptians had something about the sun being born & dying too. Nut was the sky (pictured as a woman with fingertips & toes on the earth, the rest of her arching up, and covered with stars) and Geb was her husband the earth (he's pictured below her, laying on his back, about 1/3 her size) and Shem was between them (standing, he's the air god, floating in space between them). They came as a trio of gods, and are quite often shown on tomb paintings.

Thirteen	23 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi [b] Anyways, does not the pinata sound very Dionysian? Sounds more Mythrian, actually. Mythras, a very Christlike guy (Sun god, born in a manger on December 25th--the Christian Church appropriated the date because, as was pointed out, they wanted to absorb/convert the Mythrians, etc.). Anyway, one of the big parts of the Mythrian myth is that he kills a bull, sheds its blood, and thus, restores the land. An interesting twist on the dying god myth. Quote: Dionysos does have links to Christ and Osiris. Indeed he does! Quote: - dies and is reborn, is sacrificed - associated w/women - communion and drunken orgies both allude to cannabalism (take, drink, this is my blood which is shed for you) - association w/the vine Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep! But here's the difference: Dionysos and Osiris (and Persephone for that matter) are "vegetation" gods. Gods of wine and grain. Jesus, our "lamb," like Mythras and Inanna, is more sacrifical animal god. Want to hear one of the most intersting contest between the two types of dying gods (Vegetation vs. animal)? Cain and Abel. Cain offers God fruits and veggies. But God prefers Abel's burning lamb. So Cain kills him. God marks Cain. Know what this mean? Means Abel wins. Yep, even though it's Cain that survives, it's Abel who was better loved by God--and who has everyone's sympathy--and who dies. Which, among dying gods, means you win. So, people who sacrifice animals are better than people who sacrifice fruit and veggies, says the myth. Which is a not so subtle way for the Hebrews to thumb their noses at their "brother" Egyptians--Hebrews raised sheep, Egyptians tilled the land. Remember the Musical Okalahoma where the Cowboy and the Farmer can't be friends? Same argument mythologized. You can't trust those farmers. They'd shoot their brother in the back if he was a cowboy....or so say the cowboys.....

isthmus nekoi	24 Jan 2004
Oh, now this is very interesting re: Cain and Abel. I'd always read Cain as embodying the nature of civilization which is based upon agriculture/vegetation, wealth accumulation, class stratification etc - the proto Satan. Abel on the other hand is nomadic, egalitarian - the proto Christ. I saw it from one angle as the transition from a hunter gatherer based economies towards great civilizations. Another thing to note about the dying son god is the integral role of the mourning mother/lover which perhaps suggests the connection you have made, Thirteen, to women and the menstrual cycle. Christ too, was mourned by Mary the mother and Mary the lover. Regicide is also another thing we haven't discussed. I'm not sure how literalized this energy got in the old days, I'll have to read up on this. I'm not sure I can equate this dying god/king business to the healer though. Christ worked some miracles, but they weren't exclusively healing roles. He wasn't defined as a healer.

Thirteen	24 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi I'd always read Cain as embodying the nature of civilization which is based upon agriculture/vegetation, wealth accumulation, class stratification etc - the proto Satan. Abel on the other hand is nomadic, egalitarian - the proto Christ. I saw it from one angle as the transition from a hunter gatherer based economies towards great civilizations. Oh, I certainly think it CAN and should be read that way as well. Once again, it still makes an unflattering comment on the Egyptians as well as other "civilized" lands as compared to the simple, purer sheep hearders in the desert. The conclusion, after all, is the flood. God doesn't like what he sees and wipes it all out. All Cain's civilized accomplishments, including off-spring, die in the flood. It's his younger brother Seth's offspring (Noah and family) who survive. Quote: Another thing to note about the dying son god is the integral role of the mourning mother/lover which perhaps suggests the connection you have made True again. I tend to wonder if they're the original dying "goddesses" who just got shoved to the side--"Here, you can play the mom or lover...we're recasting the starring role with a guy." Quote: Regicide is also another thing we haven't discussed. Well, we have in a way. I mean, Osiris is king, and he's killed by Set (another brother killing situation). Or are you trying to seperate out those that are "dying" kings (lingering around for a while) from murdered kings--that is, someone shows, kills and that's the end of them, story goes on without them? Quote: I'm not sure I can equate this dying god/king business to the healer though. Christ worked some miracles, but they weren't exclusively healing roles. He wasn't defined as a healer. I'm not sure I do either in every case--it's more a "Healer" in a metaphysical sense rather than "Doctor" sense--healing the land, removing sin.

isthmus nekoi	25 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen True again. I tend to wonder if they're the original dying "goddesses" who just got shoved to the side--"Here, you can play the mom or lover...we're recasting the starring role with a guy." Another question is (assuming there was such a shift), why did this come to be, why did the myth develop this way? What does such a major shift in roles represent? re: regicide, I was actually thinking of real life regicide... I mean, how frequent did it happen? Were there elabourate rituals associated with regicide? etc. Quote: I'm not sure I do either in every case--it's more a "Healer" in a metaphysical sense rather than "Doctor" sense--healing the land, removing sin. [/b] That's why I feel the Hanged Man really embodies the notion of sacrifice and salvation rather than the wounded healer... But to come back to the women, if they were the original wounded healers then the idea of salvation (at least in any Christian sense) goes out the window. I think that's a key difference b/w the male wounded healer as Christ and the female wounded healer. When mapped onto the female (here I'm thinking of Persephone, Inanna etc), it seems to me to be very amoral (note: not immoral) when compared to Christ. I am not sure how moral redemption fits into the other dying god myths although Osiris when he is resurrected judges the worthiness of dead souls does he not?

DeLani	26 Jan 2004
Great thread, Thirteen! Oh, yeah...males gods taking over female (or Godesses) powers. Oldest story in the book (literally!). The whole "salvation" thing is one of the many, very critical, differences in worldview between gylanic (men & women equal) and patriarchal cultures/religions. In the gylanic worldview, we don't need salvation. Nature, and by extension us, are just right the way we are. Not to say we can't screw up and become unbalanced, but that is not our "natural" state. We do not believe in "original sin." The lesson of the menstrual seclusion/wounded healer is that sometimes sacrifice is necessary. Also that the rhythyms and ways of nature are the best, and we should learn from Her and try to live closer in harmony with Her. At least that is my opinion of it. On the subject of Dionysus & Christ, boy oh boy are there a lot of similarities. In fact, I remember seeing a picture of a sculpture of a crucified man in a mythology book in college. The funny thing was that it was identified as Dionysus and predated Christianity by a few hundred years. :) The difference between agriculturalists and pastoralists is at the core of the differences in religion, worldview, and relations between the sexes. Riane Eisler, in her book, "The Chalice and the Blade," discusses this in great detail. It is a wonderful book, that I highly recommend to everyone. The difference between the "holy land" being right here where we are vs. some other place, the relationship of people to the land and other animals, and of course the relationships between men and women all split at that critical juncture. Why do you think the Hebrews made such a big deal out of making sure all the symbols of the Goddess-worshipping agricultural peoples around them, were portrayed as evil or immoral??? Trees, snakes, women, groves of trees, cities (civilization), nudity, promiscuity, sacrificing grain instead of animals... it's called propaganda. Sorry if I offend any Christians here. I'm anxious to hear more thoughts on this fascinating topic...

Thirteen	27 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Another question is (assuming there was such a shift), why did this come to be, why did the myth develop this way? What does such a major shift in roles represent? Well, let's be clear: ancient pagan mythologies were often egalitarian. There were plenty of myths with women, plenty with men. They just differed in theme and focus. Taking a myth that was originally female and switching it to male, however, is pretty much done for the same reason as taking a myth that belongs to one god and giving it to another god (namely, your god!). 1) As Delani says, it's propaganda. This is a good story, why should you leave it with this "loser" god/goddess. You won the war, so give it to yours. Of you didn't win the war, you give it to yours all the same to make your god seem more powerful. Remember Moses and that fight he has with the Egyptian Priests? Their staffs turn into serpents--then his staff turns into a serpent and eats their? That's a "my god's more powerful than yours!" moment. Religions have to keep assuring themselves and their followers that their god is the most powerful--or they'll lose them. 2) Control. The one thing people usually want is control. And the one thing they fear is not having control. So, you either undercut the original myth (make Eve/Pandora evil, take away Ariadne's position as goddess), or you switch it over in order to control the power of that myth and the god(dess) who originally had the starring role. 3) This also helps with conversion. For example, the Christian church turned a lot of Irish goddesses into Christian Saints. So, Bridgit the goddess become St. Bridgit. Worshipers don't need to give her up, and the myths can remain pretty much the same (save that anything she does is now thanks to her faith in Jesus) but those worshipers become instant Christians all the same. Quote: re: regicide, I was actually thinking of real life regicide... I mean, how frequent did it happen? Were there elabourate rituals associated with regicide? etc. There were societies that ritualistically killed the king, yes. But I don't know anything of the rituals. Worth investagating, I'm sure. You've got me curious. Quote: the idea of salvation (at least in any Christian sense) goes out the window....I am not sure how moral redemption fits into the other dying god myths I think Delani answered this very well. There is no need of moral redemption if there is no original sin. If you aren't born a sinner, you don't need someone to redeem you. Not to say that there isn't a concept of redemption in pre-Christian societies. The "sin-eater" or "scapegoat" is a very old idea. You put all the evils you've committed on a goat and sacrifice it. There have always been ways of cleansing oneself of evil/sin--rituals, self-punishment, fasting, solitude, washing in sacred waters, confession, etc. But you're right that the dying god(dess) isn't about morality so much as restoring fertility and health to both the land and its people. If those that created the myth have no concept of original sin, then there's no reason to attatch "redemption" to the dying god(dess)'s ultimate purpose. Original sin is actually an intreguing...trick. In essence, the religion insists that all mankind has an illness which only their dying god can cure. It assures that theirs appears to be the most powerful religon with the most powerful god as no other religion knows you have this illness, and no other deity can cure it.

isthmus nekoi	27 Jan 2004
THanks for the replies DeLani & Thirteen... I agree w/what has been written... I had a more apolitical, psychological view (which I recognize is essentializing but not w/o merit!): I saw the shift in myth as representing a shift in values from an enmeshed model of nature and conscious men where there is no perceived separation b/w them towards a split between mind/body and the rise in the value of consciousness. Matter of course becomes linked with female which points to this shift to the male god. There is a continuing (over)valuing of the rational mind and further divisions b/w spirit/material which reaches its peak in the Enlightenment I think. But it starts to crumble after that w/Romanticism, the discursive Holy Trinity of the 20th century (Marx, Freud, Darwin), postmodernity etc. I think the son gods only emphasize this split b/w mind/matter w/this focus on redemption. First, there's this strong push towards transcending the perceived filth and sinfulness of the *body*. Also, the focus is shifted away from the corporal present towards the spiritual afterlife. Sometimes it is almost as if they are opposed to each other (life and life after death), as if the more you deny your body in life, the better off you will be later on. I don't think however, the rise of Christianity is solely about garnering power although I see very strong links b/w the spread of Christianity and the rise of Capitalism and the development of colonialism. According to Crowley, the theme of a sacrificed redeeming god is *the* defining characteristic of our age (in contrast to the egalitarian period of pagan religions). I feel there is some sort of psychic currency w/this shifting myth that has more to do than amassing incredible power although the relations are there. To view Christianity that way reminds me of Marx and Freud who as far as I know, wrote religions off as hegemonic or infantile... If you want to talk about a hegemonic organization that amasses power w/great efficiency, modern day multinationals are where it's at - they are different than religions, I think despite the fact they may share corruption, hypocrisy, sanctioned oppression etc. Corporations, unlike religion, are devoid of human myth and story. The narrative of a corporation is at its bottom line, "profit margin".

Thirteen	27 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi I think despite the fact they may share corruption, hypocrisy, sanctioned oppression etc. Corporations, unlike religion, are devoid of human myth and story. The narrative of a corporation is at its bottom line, "profit margin". But you seem to believe there were religions and now there are corporations. It doesn't work that way. There's always been the merchantile folk--selling STUFF, and the Religious folk--selling Myth and magic. Power, including the coruption, hypocricy and oppression that all too often goes with it, shifts hands depending on the culture. Sometimes you find it in the Military (as with Alexander the Great, the Romans, the Mongols and the Nazis), sometimes with Rulers and Politicians (as with the Russians who put absolute power into the hands of the Tsar), sometimes with the Priests (as with ancient Egypt and Spain during the Inquisition), and sometimes with the entrepreneur as in the Victorian Age (remember, it was the East India Company, NOT Britian's military might or Church that took over India--though, eventually, the Military became a part of it all). Not, mind you, that it's always that clean cut. But you get the idea. I'll agree that the power of multi-national corporations is staggering and frightening and likely tops just about anything historically--but you never know when all that power might shift to a vast, conquering army or a world-wide religious movement--or even when a politician might smash it and take control (Teddy Roosevelt did some damage to the controlling monopolies at the turn of the century--and the workers took over the factories in Russia and China). Power...shifts. And believe it or not, each of these powers have their own myths. Brave and selfless super-soldier myths for the military, miracle workers and marytrs for the religious folk, wise kings and councelors for the polititions. And as to the corporations--they have one of the most powerful myths ever: Anyone can be a millionare. Bill Gates starts off in his garage, ends up a Billionare. That's the entrepreneural myth. Anyone can strike it rich--either by luck or hard work.

DeLani	28 Jan 2004
ah, Thirteen, how I love reading your posts! :) Now let's see what these three power structures have in common: the belief, backed up with brute force, that *some* should/do have special powers - either because they "own" the entire kingdom, or they "own" whatever it is you need to get right with god, or they "own" the property you live on. Whichever way, the basis is in the belief that one person or group of people can and should have control over other people, animals, etc. The various systems - religion, monarchy, oligarchy - are simply in place to justify and perpetuate that myth. And of course to enforce the rulers' power. Gosh, I sound an awful lot like that Karl Marx guy...please don't call the Patriot police on me!

isthmus nekoi	28 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen But you seem to believe there were religions and now there are corporations. Woah, hold on there. I can see why you've drawn that conclusion, but I never said anything like that. My point is that while any group can consolidate power, my belief is that religion is qualitatively different in a psychic or psychological way from commerce, monarchy, armies etc. Although you don't have to agree w/this point. I mean, I certainly can see where Freud and Marx are coming from! :)

Thirteen	28 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi My point is that while any group can consolidate power, my belief is that religion is qualitatively different in a psychic or psychological way from commerce, monarchy, armies etc. Ah. My apologies. Didn't mean to jump the gun there. I guess the problem is that they aren't all that clear cut. I mean, historically, Monarchys that had absolute power usually did so thanks to some religious belief--like the king either being a god or being anointed by god to rule. And the rest of the aristocracy was part of that great chain of being, put where they were by divine will. Whever you were, that's where you were cosmicly meant to be. India's caste system still works on that principle. Karma has put you where you belong. But you're right, corporations and armies don't usually bother with divine myths. They've no need to explain their power--unlike the aristocracy or priesthood who can easily be overthrown the minute the populus says, "wait a minute, they're no better than we are!" Armies, on the other hand, have nasty weapons to keep the populus in line, and corporations have comodies and jobs that people want to keep them in line. Hence, no need for mythic or magical status to keep them in power.

isthmus nekoi	29 Jan 2004
oh, good point about the symbolism of the king/queen. Very frequently they purport to have a link to divinity. In the old Chinese system, the emperor was supposed to be able to communicate w/the gods and there were elabourate rituals he needed to perform to ensure the stability of the kingdom (I would assume agricultural health goes along w/that too). In Japan, the emperor is supposed to be a direct descendant from the gods. Hm, it's interesting this phenomenon appears to be cross cultural - although I don't think we have this mother & son lover/sacrifice myth in East Asia.

Thirteen	29 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Hm, it's interesting this phenomenon appears to be cross cultural VERY much so. I just saw a special on the Maya which suggests that Mayan Kings also viewed themselves as Divine. I think we can say that people on just about every continent on Earth maintained some divinity of Kings, Queens or chieftians. It's certainly one of the oldest human myths as well. Egypt maintained that Pharoah was a living god for the, what? The some 5000 year existence of its empire? Which, in a kinda cool way brings us back to the theme of this entire thread--that a dying or wounded king somehow has an affect on the land he rules.

The The Dying God/King/Healer thread was originally posted on 21 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.