Two of Swords (Suicide?)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

gloria	19 Jan 2004
This book : THE ECLIPSE: A Memoir of Suicide by Antonella Gambotto took my eye, as the front cover was an image of Waite’s Two of Swords. It’s a tragic account of this woman’s childhood friend, lover and brother committing suicide. At first I was surprised at the choice of card. I would have seen The Hanged Man as being more fitting. (IMO) But when I looked closer at Two/Swords I thought the choice of card a good one. The blindfold…..a deliberate closing of the eyes…...because she no longer wants to see…or maybe unable to see a future or point to life? She is also turning her back on a waxing moon, maybe indicating her disinterest in starting afresh with new ideas. The fact that she closes her ‘life force’ (heart) off with her crossed arms could surely be symbolic of possible thoughts of suicide? I think the picture as a whole summons up the loneliness and isolation of this person. So maybe the choice of Two/Swords for front cover of this book was suitable after all. After writing this I realise the image on the card could very well be that of Antonella herself with the intense and perplexing emotions she has experienced through all of this. I’d love to hear your views though. Gloria.

firemaiden	19 Jan 2004
As soon as I saw the title of your post, I thought immediately of the two of swords from the Ancestral Path deck. Whatever was actually intended by the two of swords in that deck, the scene reminds me very strongly of the scene from the opera Madama Butterfly, where Cio-cio-san waits (in vain) for the return of her lover, looking out at Nagasaki harbor; her next action will be to commit suicide.

gloria	19 Jan 2004
You know Firemaiden...reading your words there sent a chill down my spine!!!

Thirteen	19 Jan 2004
Wow. This is an intreging if chilling idea. Firemaiden--dead on. I got a similar image but it was only when you mentioned Madame Butterfly that the image came crystal clear. Wow. I think Madame Butterfly hits the nail on the head in more ways than just the suicide. She is put in the middle, as most querents are with the 2/swords. Unable to live without this man, yet aware that he's not going to stay with her. She has put herself between two swords, and there's only one escape. I think if I were ever going to read suicidal tendencies in this card, it would be mitigated by such concerns. A person feeling that they're faced with an impossible choice (in M. Butterfly's case, to live without her lover).

firemaiden	19 Jan 2004
Yes. Chilling indeed. I like what you said Thirteen, about between caught between two knives. Cio-cio-san has a choice between moral death by dishonor and humiliation, and physical death, (and presumably preserving her honor). Reading from the score, the inscription on her knife reads: "Con onor muore chi non può serbar vita con onore" == Let him die with honor, who cannot serve life with honor.

Moongold	19 Jan 2004
This could be applied to any dilemma, yes? To kill oneself or not is simply one dilemma. There are many others this card could represent. Suicide is a final choice, and often gruesome, as indicated by the knives. Self-harm is another, addictions are more ...the list could go on. It's often a matter of doing it quickly through a sudden action or doing slowly by particular choices. The additional aspect to this card is the withdrawal. the shut - down from communication - the purposive blinding. Moongold

Moongold	19 Jan 2004
One more thing is that 2 Swords always seems to be about unpleasant choices. If you look at numerology and elemental stuff it isn't about this at all. Moongold

ncefafn	19 Jan 2004
So in addition to Cio-Cio San, we could add Hamlet as the embodiment of the Two of Swords? Torn between two paths, unable to make up his mind . . . Although to be honest, I've always seen the figure in the Waite 2 of Swords as the minors version of Justice. There is a sense I get not of stagnation, but of waiting. Although blindfolded, she can see what's going on around her. At any moment, she can put her swords into motion. She is the warrior waiting for her opponent to strike first. Once unloosed, her force can be deadly. Just some meditations, and certainly not definitive. Kim

allibee	19 Jan 2004
Oh well, here goes ... From my own personal experience I can tell you that there were no choices going through my mind. I knew exactly what gone wrong and exactly what I was going to do. So I (metaphorically) ran off and did it ... There was nothing half hearted about it at all. The consultant told my parents I had about 1 hour left on Christmas day 1984... yes, I was that bad ... yet here I am today to tell the story. Soul bared. No dilemma, but straightforward (yet warped) thinking ... more Ace Swords maybe ... clarity, from a certain viewpoint... A.

Rusty Neon	19 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold One more thing is that 2 Swords always seems to be about unpleasant choices. If you look at numerology and elemental stuff it isn't about this at all. Moongold Order of the Golden Dawn meanings aren't derived from number + suit, but nonetheless the GD meanings for the 2 of Swords aren't all about unpleasant choices: The GD 2 of Swords card is called Peace Restored (mixed blessings, but not fully negative). As well, the RWS picture of the 2 of Swords is ambiguous and can equally represent gift meanings or shadow meanings.

firemaiden	19 Jan 2004
Wow. Amazing post. Thank you for baring your soul Allibee. Yes, I see what you mean. There is a clarity, when you do the act. I see this two of swords as a moment of suspension. For Madama Butterfly, there was never a choice really, or she made her choice before the opera started. It was love or die, which she followed through with deaf determination. I see this two of swords as a moment of transe -- of concentration so deep into self that the outside world has ceased to exist, or ceased to need to exist. There are words here... if I say them, it might make no sense, but I'll say them anyway... a moment of transe so deep into self, that it is contacting the death-love-eternity space; a self abnegation -- or self absorption; the self subsumed in the vortex of itself -- we don't know if there will be a return, if a return is possible -- the next card, with its three swords peircing into the heart will pull her out.

allibee	19 Jan 2004
No, it makes perfect sense Firemaiden ... but for something of this magnetude, I wonder whether a minor arcana is apt .. or indeed enough? Would not those words equally apply to the Hermit, who may choose 'never to return' for want of a better expression? I can see what you mean, but is the minor two a *big enough* card for such a major action, or contemplation thereof ? A.

Thirteen	20 Jan 2004
This is turning into an amazing thread. Let's see, in order: 1) Hamlet: Hamlet doesn't quite fit the bill though his observations on suicide (gaining peace from it) are apt. Hamlet, however, is less about finding peace in a noisy world (more on that later!) than finding a way to reconcile ones self to the fact that things rot away--his mother (her morality and soul rotting away now that she's in bed with evil uncle), his father (rotting in the ground), Denmark (rotting away thanks to evil uncle's slothful and luxurious ways), Hamlet, himself (rotting away in Denmark). Things were nice the future was bright; now everything's awful and rotting away--and somehow Hamlet has to find a way to put it all right again. To-be-or-not-to-be is his remarking on how nice it would be to just kill himself and not have to deal with all this rot. He discards the idea quick enough, however. So 2/Swords--peace at any price--is not his aim. Thinking about it, I'd say that Hamlet is far more to be found in The Tower (ugly truths laid bare and how they shake things up), The Moon (having to deal with wild, crazed emotions, subconscious desires, illusions and hallucinations), and, of course, Judgement--bringing all sins to light, bringing wrong doers to justice, washing clean the rot and restoring the world back to the way it was. 2) Allibee: I don't know that I could have been that honest. That took an amazing amount of courage. Thank you. The people on this forum continue to astonish and enlighten me. 3) Firemaiden: Thanks for the update on M. Butterfly's sword. It's interesting to combine this with Rusty Neon's apt observation of 2/Sword's usual, and more likely interpetation of "temporary peace." I'm reminded of the play 'Night Mother where the arguement for suicide--and this is no "to-be-or-not" debate, the main character is determined and set on killing herself--is simply about finding peace and quiet. Looking at it that way, your "trance" observation is incredibly apt: Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden a self abnegation -- or self absorption; the self subsumed in the vortex of itself -- we don't know if there will be a return, if a return is possible -- the next card, with its three swords peircing into the heart will pull her out. What I'm saying is that between this and Allibee's very personal observations, I've reassed. I now think that if we take the 2/Swords as a possible suicide card, then it's only because the person has decided that escaping is their one and only priority. Suicide, going into that vortex, is the only or best way of doing that (as in M. Butterfly's case, escaping humiliation as well as life without love). Peace at any price. It's interesting that the 2/Swords in the mythic tarot is a son trapped between arguing parents, stopping his ears. Certainly if the noise, the hurt is so bad, than this may be the only way apparent to escape. Which, I think, would be a clue as to when/if the card might signal such a drastic move. Which brings me back to Allibee's question: should a minor card indicate a major action (committing suicide) or just the contemplation? I think that (1) the cards have to indicate that the querent is in a position that would make them want "peace at any price." At that point, yes, I'd read this card as serious contemplation of suicide (as compared to those suicidal thoughts that flit in and out of all our minds when depressed). This person needs real help NOW or those thoughts are going to become action. I would not read it as an actual attempt, however, unless (2) it was accompanied by say, 4/Swords, the Death card, 8/Cups (leaving all you love behind) or maybe some reversed card, like The Star, reversed--a feeling that there is no hope, no future. I'd be very worried (heck, I'd be flat out alarmed) if I got that kind of reading.

jmd	20 Jan 2004
This has indeed become a fascinating thread to read. With the RWCS imagery, and despite the fact that one may more often connect it to, as done by ncefafn earlier in the thread, some aspect of Justice, it is quite amazing how the card may depict the blindness of one about to severely choose (two swords held across) radical alternatives. Quite enlightening reflections - thankyou. It is also fascinating that in the case depicted, she is hoodwinked - and I use that term with precision, for it is also a term likely to have been used, in preference to 'blindfold', by Waite given his Masonic involvement. If she is hoodwinked, she can neither see, nor be clear about what is about to happen - yet it has a potential momentous aspect. The water's edge in the background seems to add to this. She can neither freely move forward, for she is likely to trip upon the blades, nor backwards, for then she would fall at high water mark and drown - in either case, accessory to her own death. In fact, her very movement is also constrained by the solidity of her fixed sitting position. Her robe is plain - again suggesting various things. But certainly not one which suggests that she is flourishing. If I can somehow connect this to the imagery which would also have been familiar to Waite and Colman Smith - ie, both the Marseille and the Moina Mather/Golden Dawn's (presumably as given by Wang's GD version), then some of the following reflections also come to bear. Firstly, of all the sword cards, the two is both the first, and the one which indicates in the most stringent manner, the vesica piscis - certainly, if nothing else, possibly a symbol of the vaginal opening and hence rebirth - to which death may be likened to. With the Golden Dawn, Rusty Neon has already pointed out its words as 'Peace Restored' - to one facing suicide, it certainly gives, undoubtedly incorrectly, that impression (and I am so grateful for your courageous input, allibee, which brings to reflective imagination much which is left unspoken, and thus provides for rich and immediate input). With the Golden Dawn, too, we have the Moon in Libra allocated this card - effectively depicted in the imagery. Hence, one of the considerations would also be one which would seek to answer the question: by what means do I make myself feel valued to others? For some, unfortunately, the answer may be, again incorrectly in my opinion, given thus: by suicide. Overall, I should add that, along with possibly most here, this card normally, and in most cases would not indicate suicide... I add this as visitors to the community may take this thread in isolation of others...

allibee	20 Jan 2004
You're welcome ...

firemaiden	20 Jan 2004
Just for reference, here is the two of swords from the Ancestral Path deck, which began the train of associations for me...

Rusty Neon	20 Jan 2004
To follow up on jmd's post, I note that in Waite's book _PKT_, Waite's description of the RWS 2 of Swords does in fact say that the woman is "hoodwinked" (i.e., rather than blindfolded).

Moongold	20 Jan 2004
Clive Barrett's Ancient Egyptian tarot has two warriors meeting in the dawn to establish peace. They exchange swords. Ellen Cannon Reed's Witches Tarot describes 2 Swords as meaning Chokmah - acting through fire/action/will in the sphere of force and shows a figure in a red cloak with one sword strapped to his side whilst he is wielding the other forcefully. Other decks I have also have very different meanings Moongold

gloria	20 Jan 2004
As you say Rusty, Two/Swords is known as Lord of Peace Restored. Implying the beginning of a peaceful and harmonious period, following a stressful and traumatic one. So, purely and simply, this card therefore represents ‘relief.’ For the person who wants to ‘end it all’ isn’t that what they crave? Relief! But I agree with Firemaiden I think the 2/Swords could symbolize a moment in suspension. A trance-like state. The actual act could go one way or the other…. You could say that the ‘light’ is well and truly blocked out. (Eclipse) Again I’d like to say it was the front cover of A.Gambotto’s book that drew my attention to this card. And that my words are mere thoughts of possibilities….I am in no way saying this is the card which represents suicidal thoughts or acts. Thank you all for your views. They have all been most enlightening.

Thirteen	20 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd It is also fascinating that in the case depicted, she is hoodwinked....If she is hoodwinked, she can neither see, nor be clear about what is about to happen - yet it has a potential momentous aspect. Excellent point! Quote: In fact, her very movement is also constrained by the solidity of her fixed sitting position. One thing Waite's 2/Swords has always reminded me of is 8/Swords. It's interesting to see the decision in 2/Swords as, maybe, eventually leading to 8/Swords. 2/Swords the woman is constrained by being seated, she eventually must make a decision, but she still has freedom of movement above the seat. By 8/swords, she's bound and surrounded (it does seem to be the same woman, doesn't it?). Her freedom of direction has been taken away completely, and she no longer holds the swords. She's been stripped of any power in the decision making process--and the blindfold cannot be removed either. Is there a connection between these cards? JMD--any insights there? Quote: With the Golden Dawn, too, we have the Moon in Libra allocated this card That's interesting--and goes very well with the urge to make peace. Libra being a sign that seeks harmony as much as justice.

gloria	21 Jan 2004
I asked Antonella her reasons for choosing the Two of Swords to illustrate the front cover of her book…THE ECLIPSE: A Memoir of Suicide. This was her reply:- "I don’t really feel that I chose the image; it feels as if the image chose me. The meaning of the Two of Swords perfectly reflects the book’s themes. A blindfolded woman protecting her breast (heart) with two huge swords, immovable on her seat of stone, her back to water (transhistorically, the symbol for emotion). She is alone, illuminated only by the moon. The card symbolizes a deep fear of feeling, readiness for retaliation, protectiveness, sorrow, deliberate blindness. “The Eclipse” is the story of how I put down those swords and removed that blindfold, so the cardwas perfect." A book I look forward to reading.

jmd	21 Jan 2004
Wonderful addition, gloria. The way Antonella describes how the card emerged as the most appropriate reminds me a little as to how I choose a card for the literary quotes in the Games section of the Forums (when I have the opportunity of correctly suggesting another's ;)). It actually suggests much, not only of the card as, importantly, a fluid event but poorly captured in frozen time, but also how the book itself unveils and unfolds this depicted captured instant. In my courses, and in some of my posts, I suggest that a card may be viewed similarly to a photograph of, for example, one's holiday (though in this case, not a holiday most of us have either had the fortune or misfortune to endure). For the person who has lived the image, it brings with it not only the instance of the scene depicted, but what also comes before and subsequently - part of what I was implying also with allibee's earlier post. Here, mention is made that '"Eclipse" is the story of how I put down those swords and removed that blindfold'... certainly not a static sense of the card, but one which goes beyond the instance depicted and felt to be so appropriate (the quote from gloria also mentions some of the reasons why). In a reading, it may very well be that other cards may show how the event unfolds... and vastly differing interpretations would of course be seen if, for example, the card was followed by the Sun - in which case one could imagine its unfoldment in the way described by Antonella - or, to give a different alternative, if it was followed by the Devil. This is of course in the course of interpretation - which may have myriad possibilities as applied to situations. With regards to the eight of swords (and now discussing the cards again as they are of their own accord), it is interesting that here, certainly, is another hookwinked woman. As Thirteen says, she cannot even remove her blindfold even if she wanted to - at least in the two, if she manages to put down at least one of the swords, she may use the hand to slip it off... even whilst holding the sword, if she is sufficiently dexterous or the blade isn't too sharp (these are again part of what may be divined in particular situations), she could move one of her hands upwards and lift up her hoodwink with either pommel or the base of her palm. If it is the same woman, then what is interesting is that her dress has changed from a rather neutral and inactive plain colour to a red... and, she is now standing. Why is she bound? To me, she appears to have far more zest or virfth for life than the moribund inability to move of the two... though I can imagine how each could differently depict suicidal reflections and tendencies, the eight would be more of the kamikaze pilot's than the contemplation which seems to internally bind and blind the two. Again, a fascinating thread...

Thirteen	21 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd If it is the same woman, then what is interesting is that her dress has changed from a rather neutral and inactive plain colour to a red... and, she is now standing. Why is she bound? To me, she appears to have far more zest or virfth for life than the moribund inability to move of the two... though I can imagine how each could differently depict suicidal reflections and tendencies, the eight would be more of the kamikaze pilot's than the contemplation which seems to internally bind and blind the two. Whoa! That is a terrific observation, JMD! Very astute. Yes, you're right. She's standing. Arms can't do anything but feet can. I think you're right about the Kamikaze. Instead of "peace at any price" it's WIN at any price. As with 2/Swords, not necessarily suicide, but there is in it a very similar form of decision making. Circumstances are trying to take away the person's power--their sight, mobility, dexterity. The intent is to "hoodwink" the person into submission and immobility (2/Swords--just hold them still. Keep things quiet, balanced, at peace. 8/Swords, just don't move). But what if it pushes them into drastic, wholly unanticipated action (2/Swords, she slits her own throat, 8/Swords, she makes a kamikazee run)? It make me wonder: in a reading, might the person who gets one of these cards be in less danger than the people (circumstances) that put them there? The kamikaze may die, but he's going to take out a boatload of the enemy while doing it, right?

gloria	22 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd It actually suggests much, not only of the card as, importantly, a fluid event but poorly captured in frozen time, but also how the book itself unveils and unfolds this depicted captured instant. In my courses, and in some of my posts, I suggest that a card may be viewed similarly to a photograph of, for example, one's holiday (though in this case, not a holiday most of us have either had the fortune or misfortune to endure). For the person who has lived the image, it brings with it not only the instance of the scene depicted, but what also comes before and subsequently - part of what I was implying also with allibee's earlier post. I totally agree with you here JMD. As for the Eight of Swords, I'd always felt her 'imprisonment' was self-imposed. But could she tie the ropes, (although they are not tied tightly) on herself in that way? She isn't completely surrounded by swords, and she isn't under any kind of surveillance. What about the blindfold? Could it represent confusion? Maybe she doesn't realise the possibilities that are open to her. Or has someone been able to convince her she is helpless? Just a few thoughts, Gloria.

Imagemaker	22 Jan 2004
Quote: Maybe she doesn't realise the possibilities that are open to her. For me this card has always implied that trapped moment before you know where the escape is located. If you think over your options, you may find it. If you panic and freeze, you are stuck.

skytwig	23 Jan 2004
I am entering this discussion late.... but I have a few thoughts.... I learned somewhere, long ago, that death is indicated by the Death card and many swords...... I would think that suicidal ideation would be represented by many surrounding cards of morbidity and gloom... there is major depression in anyone contemplating suicide. It is not an impulsive act, it is one that is 'courted' over a long period of time.... For me, the 9 swords represent the way I felt when I was 16 and contemplating suicide...... The 2 swords represented the author's picture of her dilemma with it.... but I would never look at that card in a querent's reading and think suicide...... For me, it would have to be a dark, dark reading, such that I would look at the querent and almost automatically say.... Are you all right?

The Two of Swords (Suicide?) thread was originally posted on 19 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.