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Wounded Healer = Hanged Man?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.



Rhiannon  20 Jan 2004 
Hi all, I was thinking last night that there really isn't a card that is representative of the archetype of Healer. Then I came here and saw a few references (specifically from Laurel and Kiama) that said the Hanged Man is the Wounded Healer.

I never really thought of the Hanged Man as a Healer, I guess. I just automatically associate that with "self-sacrifice" and never really consider what the sacrifice is for unless it's reading specific.

Can anyone think of any other cards they would associate with healing? I'm going to think on it for a while myself, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

Thanks!
R :) 


WalesWoman  20 Jan 2004 
For some reason the Star popped in my mind, the period of passivity following devastation, using that time for faith and hope to transform into belief and knowing...it's mostly inner work that needs to be done, it's not an active card at all, so that would feel like a healing process, regaining strength and courage from that tiny spark of light. It seems like it's rejuvination or would that be Judgement? What was once dead, now lives? 


WolfyJames  20 Jan 2004 
I associate The Star with healing. There are tough cards right before this one: The Devil, The Tower. It makes me feel like we spend enough time next to that river to recover from the blow we got from the previous card, we also find faith and peace there. So not only does our body heals but our soul heals as well.

Edit:
The previous post wasn't there when I starting writing. Sorry for the "double post" feeling. 


Lee  20 Jan 2004 
In the Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman-Burke and Liz Greene, the Hierophant is identified as the centaur Chiron, and is thus referred to in the Mythic Tarot book as the wounded healer, as is the asteroid Chiron in astrology. The book tells the story of Chiron having been accidentally wounded by a poisoned arrow carried by Heracles, and the wound never healing.

-- Lee 


allibee  20 Jan 2004 
Apart from the Star, have you thought of the Queen Cups?
She's very good at taking on other's energies and soothing furrowed brows 


Dark_angel  20 Jan 2004 
How about Temperence? Healing is about finding the perfect balance in mind, body and soul? 


TemperanceAngel  20 Jan 2004 
I think of Temperance as the healing or healer card :)

I do like the thought of the Hanged Man being the wounded healer, it seems that to have gained his enlightenment and peace he has first gone through a process (of literally being turned upside down).
Surely in this process there has been something that has been wounded, even it is just pride?
I would like to keep pondering on this thread...
XTAX 


Moongold  20 Jan 2004 
Yes, I was also going to suggest Temperance as being about harmony and balance as part of health and healing. Temperance is also an angel and angesl are sometimes associated with healing.

I have also seen Hierophant referred to as the Healer and have often wondered why. Possibly it is because he is associated with Chiron and also the bridging on outer and inner spiritual worlds.

Another possibility is the Magician. I am thinking of the Magician as alchemist - being very creative in diagnosis and in making remedies.

The Hanged Man is also a good one. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in suspension - a kind of spiritual hyperbaric chamber or the womb - to allow ourselves perspective and time to heal. The Ancestral Path's Hanged One is a great example of this.

Star as Persephone is another possible candidate for Healer, depending on the context. She emerges from the dark night of the Soul to create new life. Whilst in the underground she heals the damaged.

Hey, what this is saying to me is that many, perhaps all cards, cards have the potential to represent healing. The Empress as Earth Mother can be spiritually healing as well. Now where do you stop? 


Nevada  20 Jan 2004 
Yes, Temperance, definitely! In many decks the angel looks as if she/he is mixing medicine.

Also the Queen of Cups and the Empress. I've seen the King of Cups as a healer (physician), too. The Queen or King of Swords could be a surgeon.

Actually (sorry to break down into wishy-washiness here, but) nearly any card can indicate a healer of some sort.

Nevada 


Kiama  20 Jan 2004 
The Hanged Man, in one aspect, is a Healer.

He doesn't necessarily heal himself, but others. It's a bit like Jesus on the Cross: thruogh sacrificing himself, he healed others.

Also, I see this card as associated with the mystical experience of the Dark Night of the Soul: where the mystic goes through suffering and pain, but because of this they begin to understand what's truly going on.

Also, sacrifice can be seen as cutting away that which you no longer need: which in itself can be a healing process. :D

Kiama 


isthmus nekoi  20 Jan 2004 
I see Temperance as health, Hanged Man as sacrifice or salvation... I'm not sure about either as healer.

Hm... come to think of it, healer isn't emphasized in astrology either. Strange. 


Moongold  20 Jan 2004 
Isthmus...

Seem to be following you around here...sorry.....Isn't Chiron recognised in astrology as the Wounded Healer?

Moongold 


Thirteen  20 Jan 2004 
I think we need to define "healer" here. Among the cards mentioned we have (in deck order):

1) Magican: definately a card of doctors, so absolutely a physician. However, the Magician seems to be more about the science of healing. He likes puzzling out what's wrong and how to fix it. I rather imagine he'd be a good psychatrist as well as someone who could really tackle complicated surgeries. Cutting edge technology and chemistry here.

So, one who heals, yes, on a physical and perhaps mental level, but not, I think, on a spiritual level.

2) Empress: the Empress certainly has growth powers and one could see her healing in that she offers patience, tenderness and a safe haven for the wounded. Very nurse-like. However, her main purpose is to help things in infancy grow. So, put her on the maternity ward as a very specialized "healer."

3) The Hierophant: I like the Mythic Tarot's Chiron very much and certainly the Hierophant's job ought to be to help us with our Earthly problems by offering spiritual advice. This can heal--but excepting the Mythic Tarot's very exclusive interpetation, I really don't think he's so much healer as "Teacher" or "priest."

4) Hanged Man: HERE is where we REALLY need to clarify. To me, the Hanged Man is NOT so much a wounded "healer" as the archtypical wounded "king."

Here's how it works: The king and the land are one. If the land is in trouble, then only the blood of the king can save it. The king bleeds, dies, sacrifices himself in order for the land to grow and flourish again. So, yes, our Hanged Man is a healer...of the land. And we could say, therefore, a healer of everyone, as if the land dies, everyone dies. We come back again to a Jesus figure, sacrificing himself for all. A very spiritual healer.

5) Temperance: Again, I agree fully that Temperance is alchemy and this has healing properties. No doubt about it. But drinking down a brew isn't going to stop you from bleeding to death. I'm sure Temperance can mix up a cure that will balance out any imblance in the body (as was often thought to be the cause of diseases back in the Rennissance) or spirit. But, again we have a limit here. Restoring balance is not the same as healing a wound or a broken bone or a bleeding heart, at least, not to me.

6) The Star: I think if any card is going to be interpeted as "Healer" on all levels, it should be the Star. It's what the card means, after all, "healing" and in a reading it can refer to recovering from illness, wounds or a stint in the hospital. The waters being poured forth remind us of miraculous healings at fountains where a little water makes a wound vanish, or clears up leporacy, or is drunk and restores health, mental clarity, etc. Body, mind and soul restored.

7) The Queen of Cups: I could certainly see her as a healer along with the rest. I rather think, however, that she'd be a psychic healer, as her waters are usually associated with psychic powers. One who heals with crystals, etc., with, as it were, unconventional methods, as compared to our Magician, who think would use the latest science, chemistry and tech.

Conclusion: Yes, all healers in one way or another, no argument, but to me, only the Star stands for "Healer" in the fullest sense of the word. 


jog1118  20 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moongold
I have also seen Hierophant referred to as the Healer and have often wondered why.


if i may...this note on the thoth hierophant may assist in understanding the healer in the hierophant,
and i quote:

"The Hebrew letter for the Hierophant is Vau, which translates to Nail. Nine of these "nails" can be seen at the top center of the card. Also called thorns, they represent the Hierophant's mastery of the trials, troubles, and tests of the number 5 cards in the Minor Arcana."

http://www.tryskelion.com/hierophant.htm

:smoker: 


Dark_angel  20 Jan 2004 
Thanks, Thirteen. That's a wonderful interpretation of the cards and their roles as healers (or not, as the case may be). 


Thirteen  20 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moongold Isn't Chiron recognised in astrology as the Wounded Healer?


Not that I know of. Yes, Chiron was a healer, but Sagittarius, the Centaur, is seen as the Archer. Philosopher rather than doctor. Which might well be close enough. Let's remember that the ancient Greeks didn't divide philosophers from scientists or doctors. They were all one.

My books tend to give the "healing arts" into the hands of Pisces--which brings us right back to the healing waters idea. Hmm. This also would lend credence to the Hanged Man, given that he is usually identified with water and Neptune. Hadn't considered that....if we're bringing in astrology and planets, however, all bets are off ;) 


TemperanceAngel  20 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moongold
Isn't Chiron recognised in astrology as the Wounded Healer?

I have a couple of astrologer friends and this is what they have taught me about Chiron, that it is the Wounded Healer.....I have a book somewhere....hold on I will just go look.......TAXX 


TemperanceAngel  21 Jan 2004 
OK I think that The Hanged Man as the Wounded Healer makes great sense because he has to heal himself first.

In Astrology Chiron is definately the Wounded Healer (ouch!).

From my Dictionary of Classical Mythology condensed version:
"Chiron: the most famous and wisest of all Centaurs; he was the son of Cronus and the Oceanid Philyra. Cronus coupled with Philyra in the shape of a horse, and this accounts for Chiron's twofold nature. Chiron was born an immortal and lived in a cave on Mt. Pelion in Thessaly. Chiron was a famous doctor. *skip quite a bit* *fill in bit=battle with Heracles* Chiron either dropped one of Heracle's (poison) arrows on his foot or was shot in the knee by Heracles. The wounds of Heracles' arrows could not be healed, and the immortal Chiron begged to be made mortal: Prometheus agreed to take on his immortality, and Chiron died."

Hence the name of the Wounded Healer :)
I don't think that explains it too well, but I tried :D XTAX 


Thirteen  21 Jan 2004 
A good explaination, but you forgot to mention that Chiron was turned into the constillation Sagittarius. Which is why, as you pointed out, he is indeed part of the astrology. Interesting that he's the "archer" when it's a poisoned arrow that brought about his end. Greek Myths do love irony.

Quote:
OK I think that The Hanged Man as the Wounded Healer makes great sense because he has to heal himself first.


That makes sense...except, the thing is, the Chiron myth shows that he doesn't heal himself. In fact, the entire point seems to be that he can't. He raises Hercules, but it's Hercules arrow that kills him (a metaphor, perhaps, of how "son" destroy or become greater than fathers and/or surrogate fathers and/or teachers? Very common theme in Greek myths). What I'm saying is that a myth of wounded healer seems reliant on the irony of him being able to heal anyone BUT himself. Also, Chiron's more than just a healer--he's a teacher, philosopher, etc.

HOWEVER, all this does echo certain themes we see in the Dying God myth--that of sacrifice, surrendering immortality for death, father/son relationships....problem is, Chiron isn't a god and he's not linked to the land.

Which is probably just splitting hairs. Allow me to explain. This may get a little long, but hang in there. I found some fascinating stuff...

Jumping back a moment to the wounded king/god myth, I found this relating to the Grail (pre-Christianization when it was still more "pagan" and related to things like the great cauldron):

Quote:
...Perceval [visits] ...the wounded Fisher King's stronghold where a maiden, after a procession of bizarre objects, bears a magnificently bejeweled graal. This graal has the supernatural power to sustain life and is of sacred origin. Perceval's failure to inquire about the strange procession prevents the healing of the Fisher King. Celtic myths of magic vessels and cauldrons are clearly the inspiration.

There are several themes that are recurrent like the wound motif. The wound itself may be sexual in origin and is directly related to the fact that the land is dying around the keep. If asked the proper question by a questor, "Who is served by the Grail?", the king and wasteland will revive....the Grail...is often accompanied by the Bleeding Lance, and other hallowed objects.


I left the mention of the lance because it relates back to Chiron's arrow. Being wounded by an arrow or a lance is often part of the dying god myth. So is "hanging" or being hung up. AND so is being unable to "heal" oneself (as with Osiris, he needs to be restored by Isis--also a healer--he cannot restore himself. Ditto Jesus who can heal others but not his own wounds).

Wang has some very interesting things to say about the Hanged Man. He says, for example, that the Hanged Man is the opposite of the Wheel of Fortune. The Wheel being activity. The Hanged Man represents the moment, the ONLY moment, when the Wheel of Fortune stops...or, more accurately, pauses.

He also says that the Hanged Man is a moment of complete loss of ego. You are one with the universe, there is no "I" as you are "All." (I'm parapharasing there). Which brings us back to the dying god. The god dies and in such myths, there is a time of suspension (3 days the goddess Inana hangs in the land of death, or 9 days Odin hangs from the tree, etc)--and this time is usually reflected elsewhere, as in 3 days of a dark moon. The Wheel stops. The god becomes united with everything during this time, his/her blood spills on the earth, he/she submits, sacrifices, loses his ego, becomes one with all. Thanks to this willing sacrifice (read transformation), the land is restored. The god is resurrected either as a new, more powerful self (like Jesus) or retires and leaves behind a new, more powerful son (as with Osiris).

I think the difficulty reconciling Hanged Man to "wounded healer" here might be a combination of semantics and the jumble of myths. Here's the way I see it:

The dying god is ALWAYS a healer. But a Healer is not always a dying god. That said, the wounded healer myth does seem to be a version of the wounded king/wounded god myth. 


Moonbow*  21 Jan 2004 
My Rohrig deck has the Knight of Discs as a Healer (thats the King of pents in other decks). I no longer have the Crowley deck but I seem to remember the same card in that deck being described as a healer. Does anyone know why? It always seemed odd to me because to me the King of Pentacles is the power or controller of the material world.

Just thought I would put in my tuppence worth (as we say in the UK!)

Moonbow* 


skytwig  21 Jan 2004 
Very interesting thread!

Where did I pick up the idea that the King of Cups represents the Wounded Healer?..... hmmmmmmmm 


Moongold  21 Jan 2004 
Some more historical stuff. These myths all seem to be intertwined.

Askiepos was the son of Apollo the Sun God. Apollo was a multi-skilled God. The was the God of Music as well and was was also skilled in the art of medicine. He taught the secrets of medicine to his son, Askiepios, to whom he gave the gift of relieving people’s pain and illness. Apollo was also a highly skilled archer, and often accompanied his sister, Artemis, on her hunting expeditions. Notice the reference to Apollo as Archer. Any connections to Chiron, do you think>

In Greek mythology, Aesculapius, son of Apollo, (often referred to as the god of medicine or healing) was a Greek healer who became a Greek demigod, and was a famous physician. His mother, the nymph Coronis, a princess of Thessaly, died when he was an infant. Aesculapius was the most important among the Greek gods and heroes who were associated with health and curing disease.

Apollo is said to have entrusted the child's education to the Centaur, Chiron. who taught Aesculapius the arts of healing.

PS _These two are the same!

Moongold 


Moongold  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by skytwig
Very interesting thread!

Where did I pick up the idea that the King of Cups represents the Wounded Healer?..... hmmmmmmmm

You might have simply intuited it, Skytwig.

The King of Cups could well be an emotional healer if one sees love as healing.

See, dear friend, it all depends on context :).

Moongold 


Imagemaker  21 Jan 2004 
To have been wounded gives one (usually) more caring and compassion toward the healing of others. Anyone who rises in capability to the level of King of Cups would surely be a wounded healer, if only in sharing and lightening the moment of pain.

Good insight, skytwig! 


firemaiden  21 Jan 2004 
Cool discussion. For me the wounded healer will always be the hierophant, as portrayed in the beautiful Spiral deck, as Chiron. 


Diana  21 Jan 2004 
I've been following all this with interest. But I am confused: Are we talking about the Healer? or the Wounded Healer? or both? :confused: 


allibee  21 Jan 2004 
Or *a* healer, LOL ... I think we all have as many definitions of healer as there are definitions of what card would best signify him/her/it!!!

Going from the original post ... may be best to try and quantify *which* kind of healer methinks


A. 


firemaiden  21 Jan 2004 
My dearest Diana, we are talking about the wounded healer, of course. But.... then I have to ask you a question: is there a difference?

It is the wound which bestows the healing gift... 


skytwig  21 Jan 2004 
The Wounded Healer, for me, represents the Healer, for she/he is one who understands, personally, the way of wounding and the path of healing. She/he is a Guide, for we each heal ourselves....

For healers, the Wounded Healer gives us relief from self judgement, for we tend to have difficulty healing our own wounds... We need help, which is as it should be. The wounded healer represents our fallibility and our humaness... The Wounded Healer is huge on heart and humility and gratitude....

All the healers i have known have traveled the path of wounding and shadow....... The only healers I know that are not currently wounded are not human.... they are Angels and Spiritual Guides, but even They have known the path of wounding, at some point in their travels...... 


TemperanceAngel  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Thirteen
A good explaination, but you forgot to mention that Chiron was turned into the constillation Sagittarius. Which is why, as you pointed out, he is indeed part of the astrology. Interesting that he's the "archer" when it's a poisoned arrow that brought about his end. Greek Myths do love irony.

That makes sense...except, the thing is, the Chiron myth shows that he doesn't heal himself. In fact, the entire point seems to be that he can't. He raises Hercules, but it's Hercules arrow that kills him (a metaphor, perhaps, of how "son" destroy or become greater than fathers and/or surrogate fathers and/or teachers? Very common theme in Greek myths).


Thanks for bringing in the Sagittarius constillation, Thirteen, I knew there was something important missing :laugh:

Don't you think that by becoming mortal, Chiron healed himself?
XTAX 


Rhiannon  21 Jan 2004 
Wow all! This is great! So many different perspectives and effort went into your explanations.

The question came to me while I was thinking about Reiki and trying to find a card to identify with as a Healer, rather than as a "mother" or any other archetype. The only reason I came along the term "wounded healer" was because I came here and used my favorite SEARCH function (I LOVE the search!) and found some comments by Kiama and Laurel about it.

Before this discussion I thought the best card for the "Healer" was the Magician, for the reasons that Thirteen explained... doctors, etc. But I was also thinking of the 4 of Swords as a time of healing and recovery as well.

I think I'm going to read up on the Star more since so many people mentioned it. The first thing that comes to mind when I see that card is "hope" and that carries alot of healing properties all by itself, I suppose.

R :) 


jog1118  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moonbow*
I no longer have the Crowley deck but I seem to remember the same card in that deck being described as a healer. Does anyone know why? It always seemed odd to me because to me the King of Pentacles is the power or controller of the material world.


...the material world may also be likened to the human being encompassing all aspects: physical/emotional/spiritual etc. As the Thoth's Knight of Pentacles (King of Pentacles in other decks) maintains/controls the worldly things under his care, his very being grows weak with the effort (even his horse looks drained if you look at the card). In effect, he may also be considered the wounded healer.

more on the thoth's knight of pentacles:
http://www.tryskelion.com/knight.htm

:smoker: 


Thirteen  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Don't you think that by becoming mortal, Chiron healed himself?


Um...by dying? That's why he becomes mortal--so that he won't have to suffer forever from the wound but, instead, can die from it. Or so the myths I'm reading on him say. 


jog1118  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Thirteen
Um...by dying? That's why he becomes mortal--so that he won't have to suffer forever from the wound but, instead, can die from it. Or so the myths I'm reading on him say.


...just a funny thought, chiron healed himself by becoming mortal and dying while, if you read the link i provided re the thoth knight of pentacles:
"...He may want to reach beyond the physical plane, but it is doubtful that this will be realized. Any attempt to seek beyond the physical would probably seem to be an escapist maneuver from material responsibilities. This is not to insinuate that there is no longing for freedom, only the belief that it cannot be attained in this physical world."

chiron wanted mortality while the knight of pents wants immortality...but they are both considered wounded healers

:smoker: 


TemperanceAngel  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Thirteen
Um...by dying? That's why he becomes mortal--so that he won't have to suffer forever from the wound but, instead, can die from it. Or so the myths I'm reading on him say.


Yes, by dying :D XTAX 


TemperanceAngel  21 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhiannon
Wow all! This is great! So many different perspectives and effort went into your explanations.

The question came to me while I was thinking about Reiki and trying to find a card to identify with as a Healer, rather than as a "mother" or any other archetype. The only reason I came along the term "wounded healer" was because I came here and used my favorite SEARCH function (I LOVE the search!) and found some comments by Kiama and Laurel about it.


I am glad you clarified the healer and wounded healer thang:
When I see Temperance in a reading it signifies (not always) healing on whatever we have asked about (relationship etc) or that person is a healer.

Hence, why I called myself, TemperanceAngel for AT, because I am a healer. This is someting that came to me about this card after some years of reading :)

XTAX 


Moonbow*  22 Jan 2004 
Jog - thanks for that and the link

Its a long time since I've seen that deck but looking back it was when I first saw the Knight of Pentacles card from the Crowley deck, that made me buy the deck. A very powerful card.

Moonbow* 


Moongold  22 Jan 2004 
When we think of the Wounded Healer as one who understands and heals through her own experience of pain, we come right back to Star.

Isn't Star the story of Kore or Persephone, the pure maiden who was gathering flowers when Hades, Lord of the Dead kidnepped her for his wife. Hades was , in fact, the brother of Demeter.

According to Rachel Pollack, Demeter turns the world upside down in her anger. Finally the Gods order Hades to return Kore but things have changed. She is now known as Persephone - She Who Shines in he Dark ,Queen of the Dead. She gives the dead new life,

Because she ate two pomegranite seeds, forbidden fruit, Persephone is only allowed to return to the world for one period of time each year. This yearly cycle follows the patter of nature. Persephone goes underground in winter and returns each spring.

It is such a beautiful story. Star (Persephone) was kidnapped, raped and imprisoned. Somehow she turns that around and gives life to those without hope). On another level, Star signifies the daughter, returning to oneness with the Mother (Empress).

It would be challenging to find a richer metaphor or more fitting archetype for the Wounded Healerr than Star (Persephone).

Moongold 


allibee  22 Jan 2004 
Interesting that you should bring up the theme of my deck, the Rape of Kore ... in all my research I had not come across Persephone as meaning Star, however Kore just means Maiden.
And I wouldn't give to much credence to the giving life to the dead ... she was quite a mean bitch too ... we could call it her dark side :)
(see the HP in the SACT)

In fact it was the much maligned Hekate (the Moon) who befriended her whilst in the underworld, and guided her, and in fact 'healed her'

When Persephone disappeared from her mother Demeters sight, demeter turned the world upside down indeed, and also neglected her duties as mother earth, leaving everything to die (winter) and although the other gods implored her not to she was happy that the world should suffer as she had for hiding her daughter.
When Persephone was returned, Demeter once more lavished her gifts upon the earth and things started growing again (spring), however in memoriam, when persephone returns each winter Demeter denies the earth her gifts again until her child is once more restored 


jmd  22 Jan 2004 
I'm finally getting around to reading this thread - the title has intringued me from the start, but always passed it by due to ... well, excuses :)

Rhiannon asks, in the opening post, if there are any other cards, apart from the possible way of seeing the Hanged Man as wounded healer, which may be seen as healing cards.

In many ways, I see each of the Major Arcana as depicting aspects which have healing qualities...

The Bateleur/Magician, the Empress, the Hierophant/Pope, Temperance, the Star, and a couple of court cards have been mentioned... as well as a great discussion in various healing myths and sagas and their various connections.

I just thought I would return to the original post, simply because through reading this thread for the first time, it is the original question which burns most in my mind.

On page two of this thread, Thirteen has already outlined how those cards already mentioned may be viewed as healers.

One can also think of the healing qualities of the others, so let me maybe go through them rather rapidly (omitting those already mentioned in Thirteen's and others' posts). Of course, what I mention is but one or two quick ideas, and other healing qualities could be mentioned.
  • II the Papess: healing by carefully going inward and medidating - making whole;
  • IIII the Emperor: social healer of a situation which requires decisions for the smooth running of a healthy society;
  • VI the Lovers: the healing brought by getting out of a rut and making a firm decision - this may especially represent healing for someone suffering from depression or drug dependency;
  • VII the Chariot: the healer as bringing resources necessary for the combatting of the disease;
  • VIII Justice: healer from a, perhaps, more, again, social and legalistic perspective;
  • VIIII the Hermit: the Healer as a wise person who can bring insights and make appropriate recommendations;
  • X the Wheel of Fortune: Healing as occuring out of necessary, or karmic, consequences;
  • XI Strength: Healing represented through the natural forces at one's inner disposal;
  • XIII: Death as Healer!
  • (something we do not value much in our society).

  • XV the Devil: Healer via the tortuous struggles of, possibly, detoxification;
  • XVI the Tower/Maison Dieu: as the latter, a hospital or hospice, but also, as a place where healing comes through by synthesising and radical transformation
  • (maybe the severing of a gangrenous arm);

  • XVIII the Moon: Healing through seeing the delusions one may be living under;
  • XVIIII the Sun: Oh what can one say! The healer has bright health by vacation?
  • XX Judgement: Healing through externalising what has been repressed;
  • XXI the World: Healing through Divine Grace and the integration of the Self;
  • the Fool: Healing through pilgrimage...
I realise the original question was more of 'healer' than 'healing', but I hope that the list can be read as both :)

These are, of course, what came quickly to mind as I typed... reflecting on each card's healing (& healer) qualities would undoubtedly bring numerous further and deeper insights... as they would for each of the Courts and Pips :) 


allibee  22 Jan 2004 
Thanks jmd for adding yet more facets to each card...

Just as a quick afterthought, you have the Tower as healer via synthesis and radical transformation ... well I must say cosmetic surgery came to mind when I read that ... some people are truly, psychologically tortured by their own view of themselves

Just a thought 


jmd  22 Jan 2004 
Thanks allibee... my quick reflections are not in the least meant to be taken as the only way... rather, I simply posted to, hopefully, help in further broadening possible perceptions of each card as potential healer - but I surmise you already knew that :) 


allibee  22 Jan 2004 
LOL, yes, I'm just bouncing ideas too ...

It also occured to me that so many cards mean the same thing, but in different ways, as per their typecasting as it were. I wondered if it would be worthwhile to take the idea you have started with the healer and how it can relate to each card, and have some more keywords i.e, we know that all the cards are about some form of change/metamorphosis, so the keyword is Change, and how that may manifest in each card. And then other words that relate to the human condition ...

A. 


Moongold  22 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by allibee
Interesting that you should bring up the theme of my deck, the Rape of Kore ... in all my research I had not come across Persephone as meaning Star, however Kore just means Maiden.
And I wouldn't give to much credence to the giving life to the dead ... she was quite a mean bitch too ... we could call it her dark side :)
(see the HP in the SACT)


WOW Allibee, where did you get that from? I was quoting Rachel Pollack. I can now remember Thirteen saying something along those lies - or something on the dark side about one of these figures. The material I'm quoting comes from the companion book to Shining Tribe

You don't think the support of the Dead claims are right?

Darn..............just can't trust anything you read theses days :(

Moongold 


Thirteen  22 Jan 2004 
Not to undermine Pollack, but she does take her own unique road in some of her interpetations. I, too, have never heard the Star as related to Persephone--though I have heard it as relating to the High Priestess.

Let's remember that the Greeks revised their myths as time went by (and as many people do), tossing out old gods, putting in new--and adjusting stories accoriding to who they'd conquered (Ariande, who leads Theasus out of the maze was a goddess, but the Greeks conquored those people, so she was demoted, as it were, from goddess to side-kick in a myth about conquoring those people--The Athenian king vs the Minotaur).

It's likely that Persephone was the original and ONLY queen of the underworld, predating Pluto. She was the "crone" in the Maiden-Mother-Crone trio, Kore being the Maiden, Demeter the Mom, and Persephone the Crone. In this guise, she held the keys to Elysium and Tartarus, complete control of the underworld--and precurser to Peter and his keys to heaven.

She was likely another guise/name for Hecate. But then things get all mixed up, as myths do.

Kore is the virgin who gets abducted. Once that virginity is lost, she should NOW be the mother, but that's Demeter's role, so she instead becomes Persephone, queen of the underworld. In some stories, she's rescued by Hecate. But she returns to BE the queen of the underworld for half the time--and she's not always a nice Queen.

An added and interesting note: In some cases, it is Persephone who gives birth to Dionysus, in other cases Demeter's his mom, and in still others, Dionysus is her lover.

Any which way, I don't know how Rachael ended up giving her the role of the Star. And she's only a "healer" in the sense that her return "heals" the Earth because mom is willing to undo the damage now that her little girl is back for the summer. Frankly, I think calling Persephone in any guise a healer is stretching things. 


isthmus nekoi  23 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moongold
Seem to be following you around here...sorry.....Isn't Chiron recognised in astrology as the Wounded Healer?


I apologize for the late reply Moongold! :( Chiron is not a planet, and definetely not a part of the traditional system. Even the transSaturnian planets I have to wonder about. I don't see Chiron as ruling anything in astrology, but it does have associations which is different. Basically, Chiron doesn't carry the weight that the traditional planets do. It's like adding an extra card to the major arcana. Sure it has relavance but....

It's like all the female asteroids. They feel totally tacked on by conscious meddlers. You cannot compensate for female energy this way, it's not how the unconscious functions. 


isthmus nekoi  23 Jan 2004 
I'm w/Thirteen. The energy of the Persephone myth does not strike me as being about healing.

From what we have said in this thread, it seems there are no archetypal figures for "the healer", but that the energy resides in many different archetypes. One wonders why this act has not been concentrated and anthropomorphized by us into myths and symbols. Is it because we are constantly healing?

There is a Greek myth where someone (sorry, forgot the name) has his liver eaten out every day, but it is restored by night. Seen from a *traditional* psychoanalytic model, consciousness divides us by day, but when we lose consciousness in sleep, we are restored. Every night we heal the agonizing split of consciousness and return to the totality of dreaming life. 


Major Tom  23 Jan 2004 
I imagine myself morphing into Woody Allen to tell this joke. ;)

The wounded healer works pretty well as the Pope or Chiron. Chiron is an asteroid and featured promenently in the recent 'harmonic concordance'. It does require a sacrifice to raise vibration. I say this is the spirit of healing. Sacrifice your ego on the alter of your id - your very being.

Two women order cheesecake at the coffeeshop. Once served the first said with her mouth full, "This is so good." The second answered, "But the portions are so small". :laugh:

What You See Is What You Get. WYSIWYG - ever hear of it? 


Thirteen  23 Jan 2004 
Quote:
Originally posted by Major Tom Two women order cheesecake at the coffeeshop. Once served the first said with her mouth full, "This is so good." The second answered, "But the portions are so small".


Um, actually the joke is (taken from ANNE HALL):

Two women are eating in a coffeeshop. One says to the other, "The food here is TERRIBLE!" The other one answers, "Yes! And the portions are so small!"

Funnier that way, yes? 


Moongold  24 Jan 2004 
OK..... my sole authority for the Persephone was Rachel Pollack so I concede if that's not accurate Persephone can't go on to Wounded Healer status :D.

Moongold 


The Wounded Healer = Hanged Man? thread was originally posted on 20 Jan 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.

 


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