Association Exercise #1 -- Marseilles majors and minors

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Rusty Neon	15 Feb 2004
Hi there .... I thought I'd try something new for the group. I've deliberately selected six cards from a Marseilles deck, and the idea of the exercise is to free-associate between all (or if you wish, SOME) of those cards. The cards are - 2 of Coins - Valet of Coins (Valet de Deniers) - Valet of Swords (Valet d'Épée) - The Sun (Le Soleil) - Temperance - 2 of Cups In selecting the cards I used the Paul Marteau 1930 Tarot de Marseille, but you should use the Marseilles deck of your choice. Enjoy!

Moonbow*	16 Feb 2004
Hi Rusty Neon Great idea, and I am learning so much from my cards. I will join in with this too, when I have done the 2nd reading.

Mimers	16 Feb 2004
Hi Rusty, do you mean to read them all as if I were doing a reading? or to talk of their similarities and differences,etc.. This sounds like a great exercise. Mimi

Rusty Neon	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mimers do you mean to read them all as if I were doing a reading? or to talk of their similarities and differences,etc.. mimers ... this is meant to be unstructured free association. Talk of their similarities and differences in design, energy, possbile meanings, etc. -- whatever strikes you.

crystal cove	16 Feb 2004
I decided to use my Camoin deck because I haven't used it in a while. The first thing that strikes me about the group of cards chosen is the prevalence of 2s. Except for the Valet of swords, there are two of something in every card. (Although, do two legs count?) ;) Two coins in the two of coins, two coins in the Valet of coins, two fish and two cups in the two of cups, two boys in the Sun card, two urns in the Temperance card. Lots of cooperation here? Two of coins- First think I notice is that the card seems bright, almost piercing, lots of yellow and orange. Maybe it just seems that way because I've been using my Hadar mostly for a few months. I like the contrast of blue in the card. Flowers are all completely open except for the ones at the end of the ribbon. They're just in the bud stage....getting ready to open. Everything seems very happy and agreeable here, getting ready to give birth together to the buds on the ends. Valet of coins- Looks like the red budding flowers on the 2 jumped over to the Valet. They are completely open now and prominent in the coin he is holding and the one at his foot. The Valet seems stable, secure, confident. He seems proud of the coin that he is holding eye level. He is dressed mostly in green and red. Isn't green symbolic for fertility? Maybe he is going to accumulate more coins. His tunic is red. I think one interpretation of red is the material. Valet of swords- First thing I see is that the ground has turned to yellow from the Valet of coins' blue. I think yellow represents intelligence or something to do with the mind. Makes sense, it's a sword card. He is standing more on one leg than the other valet did....hmmm....not sure what I make of that. Not as steady? He is also looking down, maybe not as confident. Ok, I've figured out the stance. He looks like he's posing a bit. His sword is pointing upward at an angle. The hand looks like it is holding it awkwardly. Who holds a sword like that? Sun- I know what this card means but for some reason the images in the Marseille decks don't convey it for me. First off, that poor Sun looks like he spent a little too much time at happy hour. Second, the one boy looks like he's propping the other one up and that one has a funky looking tail. Although, I just checked my Hadar deck and he doesn't have it on that deck. I also don't understand the "raindroppy" things on the card. Temperance- I love her yellow eyes. Is this the only deck that shows them as yellow? Her dress is blue and red, to me a combination of spirituality (blue) and the material (red). It looks like she's defying gravity pouring the water from one urn to the other. This lady has it all together, doesn't she? Two of Cups- Similar to the 2 of coins in that the flowers aren't fully open...indicating potential. Those fish faces are pretty scary if you ask me. The tongues hanging out remind me of the two dogs on the Moon card with their tongues hanging out. Is that supposed to mean something? The card certainly represents duality, I can't really think of anything else though.

Rusty Neon	16 Feb 2004
Quote: - 2 of Coins - Valet of Coins - Valet of Swords - The Sun - Temperance - 2 of Cups Below are some quick thoughts. Obviously, this is just a subset of possible meanings for each of the respective cards. The 2 of Coins represents Change, or more accurately, the _Possibility_ of Change, since 2 is a passive rather than an active number. The change may be within one's control or choice, or alternatively, it may be due to external factors or to factors beyond one's control or choice. The change might be a radical change: i.e., whereby the status represented by one coin is exchanged for the status represented by the second coin. The Valet of Coins card depicts two coins. The valet is holding one of the coins. The second coin is on or in the ground. This card suggests that change is in the control of the person represented by this card and that such change can affect other things or persons, as represented by the coin on or in the ground. As the coin being held is the higher-elevated coin, this may suggest that the change is spiritual, or else intellectual, in nature, and that such change can affect material or physical things (second coin). The Valet of Swords is holding two objects. In one hand, he holds a sword that's pointed upwards. In the second hand, he holds the sword-cover. Change is within the control of the person represented by this card. He can use this power wisely or he can use it foolishly. Perhaps he should not risk a foolish decision, and instead put the sword back in the sword-cover. In the Sun card, one child is touching the second child, and in response, the second child is touching the first child in a different part of first child's body. The two children in the card are touching each other, in complementary fashion. This card illustrates Newton's Third Law of Motion: that, for every action, there is a reaction. The Temperance card shows the angel powering liquid from one vase to the second vase, and then pouring liquid from the second vase to the first vase. However, neither vase has ever been fully emptied into the other. This card illustrates change of a kind whereby one person or thing is altered by the other person or thing, and vice versa, i.e., like synergy or like the sharing of energies. The 2 of Cups shows the possibility of change of a kind like the merging of two streams.

Rusty Neon	16 Feb 2004
Twenty-One: Valet of swords- The hand looks like it is holding it awkwardly. Who holds a sword like that? **Yes. The valet is but an apprentice. He can't yet hold his sword as correctly or as proficiently as the knight to whom he is apprenticing. Twenty-One: Sun- I know what this card means but for some reason the images in the Marseille decks don't convey it for me. First off, that poor Sun looks like he spent a little too much time at happy hour. Second, the one boy looks like he's propping the other one up and that one has a funky looking tail. Although, I just checked my Hadar deck and he doesn't have it on that deck. I also don't understand the "raindroppy" things on the card. **Yes. In the Marteau deck, there is no tail on either of the two figures in the Sun card. In the Héron Conver 1760 deck's Sun card, there is a suggestion of a tail on the left hand figure. In the Jodo-Camoin deck, it's made very clear that there is a tail on the left hand figure. Perhaps the second figure also has a tail, but he's turned off at an angle. As tailed figures, they may correspond with the chained figures with horns and tails in the Devil card. They've lost their horns but still have their tails, and are now safe and sound in the Sun card. There are various thoughts about the raindroppy things: for example, they could be yods or they could be dew drops. Twenty-One: Two of Cups- Those fish faces are pretty scary if you ask me. The tongues hanging out remind me of the two dogs on the Moon card with their tongues hanging out. Is that supposed to mean something? The card certainly represents duality, I can't really think of anything else though. ** Paul Marteau suggests that the two fishes represent mythical Chimera.

Mimers	19 Feb 2004
I am using my Camoin deck. It is the only one I have at present. Lots of pairs in all of these cards. In the first three cards I see the pairs on the top and bottom of the cards. Above and below. Then when we get to Le Soleil, we begin to see the pairs from side to side. Equality. The 2 of Deniers seems so perfectly balanced and symetrycal. Whereas the Valet de Deneirs is totally engrossed with the denier in his hand which is above. He seems oblivious to the 'seed' in the ground. The Valet d'Epee seems a little more aware of his surroundings. He also has a sword pointed up in the air, and the hilt touching the ground. Again the connection of above and below. I also notice the 2 buttons on his collar. All the makings of good communicative skills. The fact that both of these Valet have so many twos represented leads me to believe that these lads are forming plans for action. They are not as well balanced as the 2 of Deniers, but they are learning. The next set of three cards also are very indicative of the 2's, yet more on an even level. In the here and now. The pairs are all level with each other, as if they are equal. The sun has the twins seeing eye to eye for true understanding and clarity. When you ask someone to look you in the eyes, you want truth and this is often seen in someone's eyes. Good things start with the truth. It is also interesting to note than in the last three cards, involve water. Waters to me indicate emotional matters. Again in Temperance we see the two urns and the two wings. The water from the two urns goes back and forth freely. Mixing perfectly. The two wings are what enables this Angel to fly. With the right mix of emotions, we are capable of taking of. Again I have always thought of twos as the idea right before takeoff. The 2 of cups is one of my favorite cards from the Marseille deck. It is so very sensual. The red of passions, the fish licking the petals of the flower. Beautiful card and definitally speaks to me of relationships of love. The twos are all over, and even though there is no actual water depicted the fish, creatures of the water speak of it. This is exploring opposites. The foundation is the two people on the bottom and the passion grows as a beautiful bloom from the 2 of them. The fish speak of our souls, they spring forth from this passion to taste of the petals. All of our pairs here are on equal levels. The people at the bottom hold open the curtain to show what I see as what love can set free in us. Again, beautiful things about to take off. If I were to draw these cards as a reading, I would tell the person to make their situation a success, it will take an attitude of learning and study. They must seek the facts and be willing to work hard for what they are trying to acheive. They must not forget to seek the truth and clarity in every move they make. The potential here is magnificent. But they must not forget to maintain balance in their home and family responsiblities. Not to become to engrossed in their efforts. Rusty, this was quite fun and enlightening! I would have never noticed the 2s in the cards other than the 2 of cups and 2 of coins. It added a lot to how I now see these cards.

Diana	19 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon The cards are - 2 of Coins - Valet of Coins (Valet de Deniers) - Valet of Swords (Valet d'Épée) - The Sun (Le Soleil) - Temperance - 2 of Cups I'm too tired to go and fetch my cards. But here are some brief thoughts. If I saw all these cards in a spread, I would say that the message here would be to Transform the gold of the earth into gold of the heart (Two of Deniers into 2 of Cups). In a kind of alchemical manner..... The Valet of Deniers and the Valet of Swords need to work in tandem. Because they are still apprentices - they know little of the workings of the universe. But if they put their heads together, they will be able to touch the hem of the Golden Sun... they will feel its power and that will give them the inspiration to continue the rather difficult task they are confronting. But if they become as Little Children - innocent, trusting and without guile, they will get help from the angel of Temperance and will find unity in their duality. I hope I am making some sense here - I really should not be here but tucked away in bed.

Moonbow*	20 Feb 2004
Two of coins - One end of the 'ribbon' has a flower and the other end has a fruit, which to me means the end and the beginning or beginning and end! Coins are reality, wealth, materials, so this could mean keeping life balanced - its the yin yang card. The Valet of Coins is showing us this coin and also staring at it himself - like he is proud of it. The one at his foot is kind of forgotten, it's at ground level like it is second best or less important. He is a messenger and servant and his message is to take notice of wealth (not just wealth in the money sense). The Valet of Swords has drawn his sword but not to use. One hand is on the sword the other is on the scabbard. He is thoughtful, maybe he is reminiscing. His clothes have more blue where the Valet of coins has green. He is more thoughtful and spiritual. Temperance - I just realised at this point that some of these cards have very similar qualities ( balance, choices, options, reflection). She pours from a red vessel to a blue one, her clothes are red and blue (in the main) her blue hair tells us of her spiritual message. She is pouring 'vitality' from the material to spiritual planes. She is telling us that there is something important to be found in spirituality. Her flesh coloured wings denote this being a message for us all. This is not a very happy or bright Sun. I always think it looks as though it is crying. I feel like the Sun is reaching out to the reader, it's like it is trying to say something to us. Meanwhile, the children play, happy in the boundaries set for them (wall). Thirteeen drops (13=death) - I have heard that this card can sometimes mean a death. (1+3 = 4 Emperor) - the wall. I am just playing around with thoughts here. Two of cups, another card of balance. The fish, cups, even the leafy sprigs on the shield. I always think of fountains when I see this card. Any minute now, water will spurt out of the fishes mouths to water the flower and fill the cups. An overflow of water and love. Moonbow*

Moongold	20 Feb 2004
The number 2 predominates. Are you giving us a mystical message, Rusty? It’s Saturday here, and I thought I try something a little different after a long, hard week. I used the Conver , and this very free association. It might seem incomprehensible but it was fun for me. There is something balanced in this scene – things just getting together before they go on to bigger things. It’s a kind of domestic number in the greater cosmos, almost as though everyone is sitting down on Saturday morning, as we do, and getting themselves organized for a relatively quiet weekend. There is a general feeling of frazzled contentment in the life of this cosmic couple - Temperance and Sun. Sun’s lines of tension are just beginning to dissipate. He’s worked hard this week. We’ve had a few days in the hundreds as far as temperature goes but today is overcast and a gray pall hangs over the city. He shakes his head and a few bolts of energy fly off, perhaps to start one of those freakish torrential downpours we’ve had lately. The youngest two kids in this scenario are out in the backyard pool about to have a fight. Temperance herself looks a bit exasperated. She’s got that kind of raised hip ready to flounce off look, as she does her tempering act without even looking at the jugs. She would have worked hard too. Those wings look a little heavy today and her stunning red and blue outfit looks a little inappropriate. The sky might be cloudy but we it still could be quite warm. It’s not worth my peace of mind to mention this, however. It’s been a hard week but things are good with these two. The core of their relationship is symbolized throughout the house in a funny, mystical ways but most people wouldn’t notice it. Two cups and two coins on the table. Everything is as open as it can be , and shared, feelings and material possessions. It’s just natural to them now. And they often withdraw to the power of two, to strengthen and nurture each other. They’ve been together for a long time. Ah, but here are the older boys, fruits of the relationship in a manner of speaking. They couldn’t be more different. One’s a dreamer, always up in the clouds, and the other’s involved in just about everything he can. Chalk and cheese - air and earth. :) The difference shows in their dreams. One will be artist and writer. He wants to go to university – the Victorian College of the Arts to be exact. The other wants a trade apprenticeship. The latter is the one who’ll make the money. They both look great in their own ways, their individuality already showing in the long hair each wears like a badge of uniqueness, one blond , one sandy. Temperance , the mother is secretly relieved that her boys haven’t followed the current masculine trend of shaven heads. Those funky outfits she got them for Christmas have been a hit though, particularly the red and green shirts. With the funny sleeves she wondered about what she remembers as 70's fashion but "old" style seems to be cool at the moment. She turns to me and smiles, and seems to relax, while we wait for her husband to stop looking at the skies, trying to influence the Cosmos again. The Sun might be the centre of this particular universe, but there are other players too, and he has just has to take his turn. Moongold

Jewel-ry	22 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon - 2 of Coins - Valet of Coins (Valet de Deniers) - Valet of Swords (Valet d'Épée) - The Sun (Le Soleil) - Temperance - 2 of Cups Hi everyone, I know I'm rather late with this but here goes anyway: Using Hadar. My inital reaction when I looked at these cards all together was one of duality and balance. As I began to type this I realised that in fact there are many contradictions here as well. 2 Coins When I look at this card I see a certain amount of balance but also opposites. One flower in bud and I'm not sure, but is the other a seed pod (?). Either ends of extremity? The plants are also at the extreme ends of the ribbon. By virtue of the fact that the card can depict both balance and opposites, it also implies contradiction, possibility and also change. This card has a dynamic feel to it, like there is constant change, like a belt of sorts, which is cycling its goods whilst at the same time offering some protection. The flowers turn inwards. Give and take? Valet of Coins The initial colour impact with this card, is the green of his outfit. Green represents vitality, life. He looks very focused on his coin. He could be showing off what he has but the other coin lies on the ground - discarded. Opposites again, this I have, that I dont have. He stands on the blue ground which may represent his attempts to control his emotions. His belt is loose, he has his thumb tucked in it, so he appears a little relaxed and content with his lot. The Valet of Coins with his short cloak could be showing a more honest, realistic, down to Earth side. His left foot appears to be a right foot (doh!). Can anyone explain. Is it just the way he was drawn or is there a hidden meaning here. All is not as it seems. Valet of Swords His Sword is up, but has he just drawn it, or is he putting it away? He looks downwards. A little pensive, uncertain. Is there some indecision here? His cloak is so much larger than the Valet of Coins. Does he have more to hide? His tunic is more tightly fastened and the yellow ground, shows that he is more in control of this intellect and will. The Sun My first reactions - Why do they wear green turbans or nappies around their waists? Seriously, please explain. They dont look like children to me. They have older faces. The opposites here are shown by one child standing on the flat ground, the other on a mound. They look at each other, with an understanding but on the otherhand I think it could even look like one is pushing the other away. I need to work more on this card. Temperance Her dress is blue and red, showing the battle between the material and the emotions. She pours green liquid of vitality and life, from the material cup to the spiritual cup. She holds the spiritual cup on the side of her body which is coloured red and vice versa. Opposites again. I think this is a reminder to us that we should balance the two. Moderation. The angle she stands at makes this task almost impossible. She would indeed need good balance in order to attempt it. Which cup is full, which is empty. One side of the ground appears more uneven that the other. The yellow on the bottom of her dress looks like a snake. Snakes shed their skins and are transformed. Is this relevant? 2 Cups I have to say it and I am sure I am not the first to think it, but the fish look like they are poking their tongues out at each other! I probably would not have mentioned this except for I am looking for a contradiction in this card too and maybe I have found it. Otherwise its a great card. The band which runs along the bottom is yellow. I like this and see it as a meeting of the minds, clearly an important foundation for any relationship. From there the growth is up through the middle and the bud is huge, indicating a merging. There is a lot of symmetry at the top of this card. The two cups are reflections of each other, they are in balance. I'm rambling now so had better stop. I'm going to read what you've all said now. J :)

Aoife	22 Feb 2004
Okay, this is from a very ‘flu-addled brain, but at first glance....... I see a commonality between these cards, relating to the dichotomy of the number two........ polarity/unity..... two separate but equal forces - but will they find common ground, a functional unity or will they shear apart into opposition, polarity, division? Twos are dealing with a new idea - the planning stage - it’s early days and thoughts and feelings are relatively unrefined. Here lie the opposing arguments, the ‘should I/shouldn’t I’s’, the ‘for’ and ‘against’ in the broadest sense. But the mere existence of an opposing argument will always work against achieving unity. Compromise lies in the territory of the twos...... respect for, acceptance of, maybe even a sort of unity in difference, at best leading to sharing and equilibrium. There remains however the potential for the seesaw motion.... the striving to maintain balance, unless of course they polarise into opposition - either way the twos can never rest easy. The twos are not a place to hang around for long. Any balance achieved remains precarious. The 2 of coins and 2 of cups.... both considered to be ‘passive’ suits. Perhaps this mean that they’re more inclined to want to work together, to achieve balance? The ribbon wrapping around the two coins, the symmetry of the foliage... similarly in the two of cups. The valets..... inexperienced... expressing youthful dilemmas. The valet of coins shows two coins..... one absorbing his attention, the other dropped? or buried? or planted awaiting growth? Speculate to accumulate or long term investment? Indecisive, overly absorbed or insufficiently attentive? The valet of swords looks to the past, away from his suit symbol, the drawn sword - indecision, self doubt? Progress by wielding or sheathing his sword? When to wield, when to sheath? An unstable balance between the air element of his suit and the valets represented by earth. Temperance - actively blending opposites, the archetypal expression of balance. The Sun’s twins - the same but separate, identical but non-identical . The same or opposite gender? John Opsopaus says that the twins symbolise “duality, separation and contradiction but also similarity, duplication and repetition. Divine twins represent the potential energy of opposition and the creative force unleashed by their unification.” The ‘alchemical union‘, the ‘sacred marriage’ of opposites “for only alchemy can unite the contradictories without the opposites annihilating each other” - to be achieved in XXI The World. The sun binding heaven to earth, the bridge between “the mundane and the celestial“ The Sun is however, far further on than the dilemma of the twos. 1 + 9 = 10 = 1. J C Florney says, “The conscious and unconscious recognise one another. From now on they work together“. As I said, the product of a foggy brain.... that’s my excuse, and I’m sticking to it.

The Association Exercise #1 -- Marseilles majors and minors thread was originally posted on 15 Feb 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.