Masculine and Feminine, or the other way around...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
I thought I would bring yesterdays discussion from the Tarot Cafe to AT, I hope that's not plagiarizing?? I was wondering what everyone here thought about which cards are masculine, and which are feminine? I'll start: The Fool: Genderless The World: Genderless or United The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Emporer: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine Lovers: Masculine Chariot: Masculine Strength: I think both, can't decide as yet Hermit: As above (so below...hee hee) Wheel of Fortune: I think Genderless, as it combines all the Directions and/or the Elements so therefore has no gender. Justice: Feminine The Hanged Man: Feminine Death: I think both, depending on situation. Temperance: Masculine Devil: Masculine (and Feminine) The Star: Can't decide, hmmm maybe feminine. The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: Haven't decided yet! You must remember that we are talking about MASCULINE and FEMININE, not male and female. It is the principle, rather than the physical being. So you would have to decide on your definition of masculine and feminine, perhaps we have different definitions. I would like people to post their defintion of masculine and feminine, and then list their cards :) Please note the reason I have not told you why I chose these cards to be those genders is because I did not want to influence others decisions too much, and that also goes with the masculine and feminine definition as well. Gosh, I am being awfully bossy today :D Does this all make sense? I would like people to think of their own defintions first (including cards), before reading others. Perhaps a note at the end of everyones post to direct them here first would be of much help! Enjoy, this is lots of fun (oh, unless you bicker about it like my friend and I did yesterday!) :D XTAX

Moongold	08 Feb 2004
Temperance ~ You have not given your definition of masculine and feminine? Moongold

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel Please note the reason I have not told you why I chose these cards to be those genders is because I did not want to influence others decisions too much, and that also goes with the masculine and feminine definition as well. Gosh, I am being awfully bossy today :D I will after some responses ;) XTAX

Thirteen	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel The Fool: Genderless The World: Genderless or United Agreed, though I'd put the World as United rather than genderless--very much the Hermaphrodite. Quote: The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Emporer: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine Agreed. Lovers: Masculine AND Feminine. In all Lovers cards there is at least one woman as well as a Man. So I'd say that it's very much a yin/yang card. Not united, just both. Gemini, the twins. Quote: Chariot: Masculine Yes, but it's a...passive Masculine. What I mean by that is that it's armored, and usually pictured as still, not moving. There's no sword. The chariot is male, yes, but it's method of achieving its goal is not typically "Masculine"--which would be to ride into battle with sword drawn, not travel through in a protective chariot. Strength: Feminine Definately. And the opposite of the Chariot--aggressive Feminine. The woman opening the jaws of the lion--exerting strength usually associated with the masculine, see? But absolutely, female, not male. Hermit: Masculine--the Hermit is into a form of order and organization that tends to be very masculine--even though, Virgo, feminine, is the sign usually associated with the Hermit. Quote: Wheel of Fortune: I think Genderless Justice: Feminine Agreed. The Hanged Man: Masculine I'll explain later why I think the Hanged Man is very masculine. It has to do with individual sacrifice rather than big-picture sacrifice. Death: Feminine This goes with the Hanged Man (male)--you need a goddess of Death to take in that man and ressurect him. Also the Death card relates to Scorpio--deep waters, sexuality. Female. Temperance: Both--Hermaphodite--or neither. This is an angel, and they have no sexuality. Also, it is a card about merging of water/fire, feminine and masculine--into a third substance that is usually Ether--beyond sexuality. Devil: Masculine--VERY. The Star: feminine The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: Neither--we're back to angels there. I'm seeing masculine and feminine in magical terms here--water vs. fire, sword vs. cup. This is why the Chariot and Strength were sticky: The cup is "protective" and Cancer a water sign--which gives the Chariot a feminine bent; but it's goal, racing forward to victory, is masculine. Thus, masculine but using a feminine mode. Ditto with Strength--she is not armored, but, rather going directly hand-to-hand with the lion, with fire. Masculine. On the other hand, Strength is not about dominating or being victorious, but rather about control, like that of the vestal virgins tending a sacred flame. So, still feminine though her mode is masculine. I'm also thinking in terms of left/right brain--which is why the Hermit's organizational methods and solitude mindedness (i.e., not social, a very feminine quaility) seems very masculine. Masculine is often very individual even if that individual is doing what they're doing for the larger picture--like Prometheus bringing fire to humankind and suffering for it. A myth of individual sacrifice: the Hanged Man. The Feminine, on the other hand, usually involves the mythos and symbolism of the big picture. The idea of the feminine caring for the family, the world. The great mother, like Demeter, who alters the seasons, the abundance of the world, to reflect her suffering. A myth of winter, of seasons. Hence, Death. That, at least, was my reasoning.

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
I was thinking about how the Wheel of Fortune is about Karma and, therefore does have an agenda, but doesn't have a gender :) XTAX

Imagemaker	08 Feb 2004
This masculine/feminine difference came up in a discussion with students this week. Last semester I taught a public speaking course. My method is to encourage people bit by bit to work through their fear, I lead them through relaxation visualizations, I give tips on coping, how to connect with the audience--in other words, much support and creative ideas--empathy and social compassion. One might call it the Empress Method. The professor who is teaching this semester told me his approach to grading the first speech is to "slam them hard." Students in his class complained to me already that he has intimidated them with his style of demanding excellence, gave no tips for coping beyond how to do note-layout. He had no sympathetic words for fearful speakers (nearly everyone, especially freshmen and sophomores). By his own words to me as a colleague and to them as students, he clearly has what I would call the stereotypically male, competitive, do or die attitude. He kills off the weak and celebrates the strong. And at the end of the semester, he'll award victory to those who survived. It seems like a harsh Emperor Method to me. The situation seems to set out the extremes of masculine/feminine attitudes. And the effect he has on future public speakers makes me crazy!! (By the way, he's the Head of the Communications department.)

Phoenyx*	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen [b] Temperance: Both--Hermaphodite--or neither. This is an angel, and they have no sexuality . Did anyone else get a flash from Dogma when they read that? teehee :D I'll write later on my opinions of the cards. :) Quote: The professor who is teaching this semester told me his approach to grading the first speech is to "slam them hard." Students in his class complained to me already that he has intimidated them with his style of demanding excellence, gave no tips for coping beyond how to do note-layout. He had no sympathetic words for fearful speakers (nearly everyone, especially freshmen and sophomores). By his own words to me as a colleague and to them as students, he clearly has what I would call the stereotypically male, competitive, do or die attitude. He kills off the weak and celebrates the strong. And at the end of the semester, he'll award victory to those who survived. It seems like a harsh Emperor Method to me. I'm dealing with a clinical rotation instructor that is EXACTLY like that.

firemaiden	08 Feb 2004
This is just how I see it... The Fool: masculine with femininity The World: feminine The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Empror: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine with feminine sensitivity Lovers: Masculine and feminine Chariot: Masculine Strength: feminine with masculine strength Hermit: masculine Wheel of Fortune: feminine Justice: Feminine The Hanged Man: Masculine Death: masculine Temperance: Feminine Devil: Masculine The Star: Feminine The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: neither/both

Moongold	08 Feb 2004
How do you define masculinity and femininity? For me the definitions hinge a little on social roles and a little on biological stuff I think any classifications people come up with are going to be influenced to some degree by this material. I don’t think it matters very much. I can see myself in any card, use whatever attributes seem appropriate to the image without getting too involved with masculinity/femininity definitions. This is how I see it, however: The Fool: masculine and feminine The World: feminine The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Emperor: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine and Feminine Lovers: Masculine and feminine Chariot: Masculine Strength: feminine Hermit: masculine Wheel of Fortune: feminine Justice: Feminine The Hanged Man: Masculine Death: Masculine and feminine Temperance: Feminine Devil: Masculine The Star: Feminine The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: Masculine and feminine Moongold

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
I was thinking of the masculine and feminine principle, not the actual physical being or even the iconography of the card. Feminine principle: ying, inner, passive, night. Masculine: yang, outer, active, day. Maybe this makes a difference to your thinking of the cards :) XTAX

Ruby7	08 Feb 2004
[ The Fool: Genderless The World: Genderless The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Emporer: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine Lovers: Both Chariot: Masculine Strength: Feminine Hermit: Masculine Wheel of Fortune: Genderless Justice: Feminine The Hanged Man: Masculine Death: genderless Temperance: Feminine Devil: Masculine The Star: Feminine The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: Both This is based on how I feel about each card. Ruby7

Ruby7	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel I was thinking of the masculine and feminine principle , not the actual physical being or even the iconography of the card. Feminine principle: ying, inner, passive, night. Masculine: yang, outer, active, day. Maybe this makes a difference to your thinking of the cards :) XTAX Yes, but why are the feminine and masculine principles so defined? Is this definition not a result of social roles? (as in our way of thinking) I don't see how this can be separated. Ruby7

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ruby7 Yes, but why are the feminine and masculine principles so defined? Is this definition not a result of social roles? (as in our way of thinking) I don't see how this can be separated. Of course, we have both masculine and feminine within us, and they are different or separated, they can't both be the same. But they can merge together... I don't think they are defined as a result of social roles, look back a few hundred years or so, people acted according to what they felt as opposed to what they thought their role was :) XTAX

Moongold	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel Of course, we have both masculine and feminine within us, and they are different or separated , they can't both be the same. But they can merge together... I don't think they are defined as a result of social roles, look back a few hundred years or so, people acted according to what they felt as opposed to what they thought their role was :) XTAX Temperance, There are various frameworks for understanding gender. We don't need to get too bogged down (not that we are). It's sometimes useful for people to know which framework is being used. Whatever, people will use the one that suits them best anyway. There seems to be a quite a lot of commonality across the board anyway. :) I still like the suggestion that came from JMD a long time ago when discussing something else, that we can elements of ourselves in every card. I know we still need to have gender frameworks though. Moongold Moongold

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold There are various frameworks for understanding gender. We don't need to get too bogged down (not that we are). It's sometimes useful for people to know which framework is being used. Moongold, I did suggest the frame work in my original post to be the masculine and feminine principles, of course we see them differently and that is why I thought this would be interesting to get everyone to write their definition of this so we know what framework they are using and their card allocations according to this. I thought it would be a great exercise and one in which we could compare and contrast peoples' defintions and card allocations. Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough in my first post? XTAX Edited to add it has been suggested to me I sound a little irritated, I probably shouldn't do this but in between studying my biochem notes and text I jump on AT for a break (not all the time when I break). I would think that yes, I am a little tired and also irritated slightly by the tricarboxylic acid cycle :laugh:

Ruby7	08 Feb 2004
Hi Temperance Angel, hope you're not overdoing it with your studying :) I chose not to write my definition of the male and female principles because to be honest I just don't like thinking about it and prefer to just go by my feeling and I have very strong feelings about which cards I feel are more male and which are more female. It is interesting to read other members' opinions on this and maybe I will think about it a bit more. Best regards, Ruby7

TemperanceAngel	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ruby7 I chose not to write my definition of the male and female principles because to be honest I just don't like thinking about it and prefer to just go by my feeling and I have very strong feelings about which cards I feel are more male and which are more female. EXCELLENT! So I would say your definition is an intuitive one, am I right? :) XTAX

Ruby7	08 Feb 2004
Yes that would be correct :) My feeling about each one is strong and I didn't have to think about it. Ruby7

Never_Mind	09 Feb 2004
The Fool: Male The World: Genderless The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Emporer: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine Lovers: Both M and F Chariot: Masculine Strength: F Hermit: M Wheel of Fortune: Genderless Justice: Feminine The Hanged Man: M Death: F Temperance: F Devil: Masculine The Star: F. The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: Genderless

Diana	10 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel I was thinking of the masculine and feminine principle , not the actual physical being or even the iconography of the card. XTAX In that case, the Empress is masculine. I know that in the RWS decks she is considered to be a mother or something... but this doesn't make sense to me. The archetypal mother is the Papess (High Priestess for Golden Dawn type deck fans).

TemperanceAngel	10 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana In that case, the Empress is masculine. I know that in the RWS decks she is considered to be a mother or something... but this doesn't make sense to me. The archetypal mother is the Papess (High Priestess for Golden Dawn type deck fans). You may need to explain to me some more, Diana, or can you please elaborate on this, I find it very interesting :) XTAX

Diana	10 Feb 2004
TemperanceAngel: I would be most happy to discuss this with you on the forums. But I think a new thread should be made because we risk getting way off topic. But in the meantime, I would like to answer your interrogation with a question (bad Diana - no biscuit). And the question is: "Why would the Empress be the Mother?" If you tell me it's because it's what you were taught, or what you read in 78 Degrees of Wisdom, or in Joan Bunnings Learning the Tarot, that's not an answer. Because then you would have to ask yourself "Why did these people say she is the Mother?" Because someone told them? I like the story of the woman who always cut off the end of her ham before she put it in the oven for Sunday lunch. Her husband was intrigued by this, and said to her "Why do you always cut the end of your ham off before you cook it?" "Well, my mother always did this, you see. So I reckon it must be the right thing to do." Following Sunday they asked the mother why she did this. She told them it's because her mother always did it. So they phoned the grandmother to ask her the reason. "Oh, that's because my pan was too small to hold the whole ham", she replied. ------- Should we start up a new thread? We could call it "Who is the Mother: the Empress or the Papess/High Priestess". (Could we include both terms please.)

Diana	10 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Temperance: Both--Hermaphodite--or neither. This is an angel, and they have no sexuality . Also, it is a card about merging of water/fire, feminine and masculine--into a third substance that is usually Ether--beyond sexuality. [/b] The Roman Catholic church has managed to convince almost everyone, including people who are anti Roman Catholic, that angels are genderless and have no sexuality. The Koran is also adamant about this. Doreen Virtue, on the other hand, portrays them mostly as sweet feminine creatures with flowers in their hair. In most sacred texts, they are referred to as "he". In some religious texts, they can take on a feminine aspect, and a masculine aspect, as they please. The question of the gender of the Angels dates back to 1054, and the great schism which separated once and for all the Roman Papal church from the Eastern Orthodox church. And then there are the Heretics who believe that the Angels found the daughters of man so delicious, that they made love to them and created a race of Giants.... heresy indeed. In ancient ancient times, most of the ancestors of our angels were depicted as half animal, half human and many of them were evil.

Thirteen	10 Feb 2004
Hadn't heard about the Angels making love to women and creating a race of giants. Cool stuff. And yes, mythically, winged-human creatures were often evil--but then, of course, there's Isis, the healer, who was often portrayed as winged. I, myself, answered the question from the modern gut, and with a view to Waite/Crowley symbolism (water/fire mix)--but were I examining the Temperance Angel from a historical perspective, and not going back further than the Marseilles with the iconography, I'd presume masculine for the angel if only because western, Judeo-Christian, patriarchal bias makes anything powerful and related to God male...including God.

Diana	10 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Hadn't heard about the Angels making love to women and creating a race of giants. Thirteen: If you want to look into this, the best place to start is Genesis chapter 6, verses 1-4. I would suggest looking up different versions in order to get a clearer idea. After that, you my get so interested, that you'll probably spend hours Googling Angels, Giants and Nephilims.... Fascinating stories.

TemperanceAngel	10 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Should we start up a new thread? We could call it "Who is the Mother: the Empress or the Papess/High Priestess". (Could we include both terms please.) I think that is a great idea, Diana, I think this discussion is worthy of its' own thread :D (Just for interests sake, I read with RWS, but don't see the Empress as the Mother...will tell you why when you start the new thread! As for the gender of angels, we could go on for hours....) XTAX

WalesWoman	11 Feb 2004
No one commented on the elements that represent the Major Arcana, or I skimmed it and missed it. That is how I "decide" if it has a masculine or feminine association. Air and Fire are Active, Masculine elements, Water and Earth are nuetral or passive and are Feminine. This is a link for Elemental Dignities and a chart for the Majors: http://www.nodntap.net/tarot/eds/majors_chart.shtml I'm still working on this whole concept and how it relates but here is a site that describes elemental relationships to the cards and also how they relate to each other in a spread. http://www.nodntap.net/tarot/eds/elemental_spheres.shtml and a whole lot more to think about and look at: http://www.nodntap.net/tarot/tut_links.shtml It's all very interesting in a mind bending sort of way.

full deck	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel I was thinking about how the Wheel of Fortune is about Karma and, therefore does have an agenda , but doesn't have a gender Yes, I would agree, it is quite different from the other cards, if you will, rather unique. It is more of a transcendental process that could not really be genderized. I wonder if anyone else has tried to generize this one before(?) Anyway, I would have to agree with Ruby7's listing. It fits mine exactly.

Moongold	12 Feb 2004
I am curious as to why people would see Death as masculine. I would tend to see it as either "both" or genderless. It doesn't seem to fit the yin/yang thing or any other framework for determining gender. Can anyone explain? Many thanks ~ Moongold

TemperanceAngel	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I am curious as to why people would see Death as masculine. I would tend to see it as either "both" or genderless. It doesn't seem to fit the yin/yang thing or any other framework for determining gender. I agree with you Moongold, but would love to hear why as well :) xTAx

Shade	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by WalesWoman No one commented on the elements that represent the Major Arcana, or I skimmed it and missed it. That is how I "decide" if it has a masculine or feminine association. Air and Fire are Active, Masculine elements, Water and Earth are nuetral or passive and are Feminine. I like your appraoch WalesWoman, I usually go with the elemental or projective receptive approach. The gender topic usually makes me a little nervous because it is so very vital to so many people and things can get ugly. I think an issue is the idea that there are only two genders and something has to be either one or the other. And we can get a little irrational about things at times... for example why are all cars, boats, and hurricanes female? Are they REALLY female? I thought it was interesting that a few folks would make Strength feminine. Is that because it would create a balance with the Chariot which seems masculine? I know that Strength usually has a woman on it these days but don't many historical decks depict Hercules or a man wielding a club on the card. I feel the card is energetically projective, even though it is usually considered an "inner strength", and would consider it a masculine card if I had to decide. I'm glad Diana asked about the Empress bcause I had never before considered that she was anything but receptive and was mainly basing that on the flawed idea of balance that I was criticizing in others. After pondering for a bit I can definitely see an argument for the Emoress being a masculine card. Always good to shake things up. Glad someone brought up the male angels from Exodus and their children the Nephilim (the giants Jehovah was trying to destroy with the flood). A TV movie aboud Noah's Ark came out a few years ago and I believe they tried to pass off the "the people have gone wicked" justification for the flood. I feel that sometimes folks in new age/esoteric/occult circles see masculine enrgy as negative and feminine as positive (completely understandable after a few millenia of patriarchal dominationthough). In another forum I had mentioned an Astronomy teacher who had been speaking against Astrology and another poster assumed my professor was a man (she's a woman).

Moongold	14 Feb 2004
I’d like to say something that has been percolating within for quite some time. Why should ACTIVE be attributed to the masculine and RECEPTIVE to the feminine? It seems that this is imply based on SEX – the power of the penis, so to speak. For me it really depends on WHO is making the definitions. There are many ways that the Feminine is ACTIVE and many ways that the Masculine is passive - depends on your definitions. Sure I know we can’t get away from labels and definitions and history. They are all part of the search for meaning. Do we need to follow social constructs and attribute gendered qualities to specific tarot figures at all? What purpose does this serve but to further confine us in our thinking and imagination? Ah……….this question is asked with tender bewilderment. :) Many will want to continue attributing qualities as gendered, which is fine. Some will not want to because they realize they do not have to follow that track. Moongold

Shade	14 Feb 2004
This reminds me of the beginning of a great African folk tale I heard. It starts out saying that the water is deep and flowing and nourishing and healing.... the water is a woman. The wind is fierce and mighty and swift and loud.... the wind is a woman. The story goes on to talk about the two interacting with their childeren and the reason we have tides and waves, but I was most struck by the way I had caught myself thinking "Oh I get it strong swift fierce the wind is a man she's saying men are like wind and women are like water. But oh wait... women are like wind and women are like water." Well I don't think any of us have really stated our definition of what masculine and feminine or gender mean. Much of the time people choose to associate masculine with projective energy and feminine with receptive especially when talking elemental correspondences. I think this definition relates to biology as you suggest. The Male half of procreation is projective and external and the female half is receptive and internal with most species. The first mistake I think we make is, as you noted in the first post, that there is a difference between feminine and female and masculine and male. It's like we have this big Yin Yang thing going on and we have to seek "balance". A lot of people have a hard time understanding gay relationships (including a lot of gay folks) because they get caught up in the "Am I the man or the woman in this relationship?" thing. I think it will be VERY interesting to see what happens when Lee's Gay Tarot comes out. I'm hoping it will showcase the fluidity of masuline and feminine with us rather than going completely to one side of the spectrum or the other. (Had to try and tie my tangent back into tarot, how'd I do?) The second mistake (I believe) is that we try and associate the traits with whether we think they are good or bad. Is being receptive good? No. Bad? No. It's being receptive. On one hand it can be healing and deeply intuitive and patient and open.... or it can be reclusive and self indulgent and morbid. But I don't think we can say that it is good to be receptive or it is good for women to be receptive, etc. I also think it gets touchy because we take it literally. When I said I thought that Strength is a Masculine card did anyone worry that I was saying the concept of strength comes from men and women can only model the behavior. I see where you are going with the trouble of relating "active" to male and thus "power of the penis". I was looking at it as a much less charged notion. The male organ enters the female organ, sperm enter the egg and such I hope it didn't sound like I was associating projective or active with initiating/controlling/enjoying sex. I should have explained that more carefully. At a completely biological level yes i see the male half as being active and the female half as being receptive but i don't extend that to the notion of who is intitiating sex. I've watched too many documentaries about pandas to think that and I hope my comments diodn't bring up patriarchal notions of women's sexuality. Hmmm I'm not sure I can relate the pandas back to tarot.... I might have gone too far off the beaten path here.

Moongold	14 Feb 2004
Hello Shade, I wondered where Johnny Voodoo was :). I guess I was interested to look at where all this stuff really comes from. People often seem to unconsciously or subconsciously accept theories and models without really thinking about them. Of course we can't get away from classifications. They order life, but maybe we should question them more often. Male + Female is a biological construct from which gender flows. I am simplifying it hugely I know. Masculinity and femininity are psychosocial constructs flowing from this, and taking on different forms according to culture. I guess it is inevitable that the Tarot should reflect some of this, but I guess it does not really matter. Each to her/his own interpretations - as long as we are open to multi-dimensional perspectives, why should it matter? Moongold

Shade	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Of course we can't get away from classifications. They order life, but maybe we should question them more often. I definitely agree 100% about questioning models we've been taught. That's why I liked that african fable and Diana's question about the Empress. I noticed several people made the hanged man masculin and justice feminine and I personally would have switched those but it's fun to sit and think about how to work that system. This is one of the reasons I like it when decks switch the "traditional" genders of the figures on the majors. I often have trouble with some aspects of Jungian psychology especially the anima animus deal especally when all expressions of the dark feminine are interpreted as a warped anima. When I see depictions of the Crone or Kali I think of women's mysteries not a man's insecurity.

Moongold	15 Feb 2004
I agree with you, Shade. As a gay woman I have at different times of my life, struggled with the gender stuff and feel that it limits people so much. I was interested in your comments about the forthcoming Gay Tarot and wonder whether peple other than gay will use it much. I hope so, but I guess it remains to be seen, and I have not seen the full deck. At least it is nice that at this time of my life I can say to all of it and simply make my own judgments :D :D :D. Wow.................but it has been a hard road. Moongold

TemperanceAngel	15 Feb 2004
So back to the origins of the thread.... Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel The Fool: Genderless The World: Genderless or United The Magician: Masculine The High Priestess: Feminine Empress: Feminine Emporer: Masculine Hierophant: Masculine Lovers: Masculine Chariot: Masculine Strength: I think both, can't decide as yet Hermit: As above (so below...hee hee) Wheel of Fortune: I think Genderless, as it combines all the Directions and/or the Elements so therefore has no gender. Justice: Feminine The Hanged Man: Feminine Death: I think both, depending on situation. Temperance: Masculine Devil: Masculine (and Feminine) The Star: Can't decide, hmmm maybe feminine. The Moon: Feminine The Sun: Masculine Judgement: Haven't decided yet! I think I changed my mind about the Empress in another thread, but in a divinatory sense I often see the Empress having female energy, which is different to the feminine principle :) The Hierophant is masculine for me because the structered systems that go with the card I find masculine. The Lovers, again to me, are about choice which I see as being in line with a conscious decision, ie: masculine (contraversial...) Strength can quite often belong to the feminine principle, but to the masculine as well, so I am still undecided...as with the Hermit... I see the Hanged Man as being feminine because I find it a very passive card. Temperance, to me could be both and I can't remember why I decided to put it as Masculine :laugh: maybe just to be difficult.... I think Judgement is Feminine, because I think it has a huge link to the High Priestess. It's great to hear peoples reasonings, and we all also follow different Tarot systems. Sometimes I think that people are thinking about people and not principles. Also the thinking comes way before our current society, 100's and perhaps 1000's of years ago.. I loved the way people looked at the elemental aspects of the cards to define their gender...wonderful :) XTAX

Shade	15 Feb 2004
For the cards that are coming up as ?'s I had a thought. On a free tarot site it describes the court card as an el;ement behaving as an another element. http://www.facade.com/tarot/personal/?UID=211965&Date=2%2F15%2F2004&Name=Anonymous&Query=g&Deck=rider_waite&Reading=single&Sign=on For example the King of Wands: The essence of fire behaving as air, such as lightning. What if the Hanged man is masculine behaving in a feminine manner or Justice is feminine behaving in a masculine manner... or the other way around or both. Thoughts?

Phoenyx*	15 Feb 2004
Don't we all have some qualities of both in ourselves? And thus, wouldn't the cards as well?

TemperanceAngel	15 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Triquetra Don't we all have some qualities of both in ourselves? And thus, wouldn't the cards as well? Very true Triqueta :) But the exercise from the original question I put forward, which is what this thread is about, is not to do with us, instead a principle. I did intend this to be a fun thing to do, to compare everyone's lists and reasons why they chose the cards that they did....but alas, it seemed to not want to go that way :laugh: XTAX

Nevada	15 Feb 2004
While it's true that many of them have aspects that we traditionally think of as either masculine or feminine, in a reading they can represent the qualities of either gender, and/or people (or other entities) of either gender. Nevada

Moongold	15 Feb 2004
Quote: did intend this to be a fun thing to do, to compare everyone's lists and reasons why they chose the cards that they did....but alas, it seemed to not want to go that way XTAX You can never predict how a thread will go at Aeclectic. Perhaps you should have a heading next time saying: [/i] and see what happens :D :D. The trouble is - gender is always very political and also serious - and you would have been very lucky to get away with no discussion or debate at all. What do you have so far: 1. The various attributions of gender to the cards and some interesting perspectives on this 2. Various questions about why people want to attribute gender to different images. 3. Some social commentary on problems with gender. 4. Some laughs and some serious comment. That is quite a rich reward actually from such a potentially sensitive subject. :) Moongold

TemperanceAngel	15 Feb 2004
Aaahhh, Moongold, it could of only been this way because it was me :D :D :D XTAX Quote: Originally posted by Moongold That is quite a rich reward actually from such a potentially sensitive subject. :) P.S. I did mean it to be fun and serious :) If anyone has thought of it to be political then they are way off the mark, and sensitive? Well, this is a Forum and if a topic makes you feel sensitive then the best thing to do is walk away, don't post in it. I repeat walk away, as I would do....

Diana	16 Feb 2004
One must not forget that the Major Arcana also have NUMBERS attributed to them. Of course, this poses the problem of Strength and Justice which Waite switched.... and if one studies numbers (and their feminine/masculine qualities) along with the Major Arcana, one will realise that this is another reason why his switch was most unfortunate. (edited to make my post clearer.)

TemperanceAngel	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Of course, this poses the problem of Strength and Justice which Waite switched.... and if one studies numbers (and their feminine/masculine qualities) along with the Major Arcana, one will realise that this is another reason why his switch was most unfortunate. It's not a problem, just a mere formality ;) The switch is only unfortunate if you view it that way, but I see your point at the same time. XTAX

Diana	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel It's not a problem, just a mere formality ;) The switch is only unfortunate if you view it that way, but I see your point at the same time. XTAX A mere formality? When it comes to interpreting numbers, one cannot talk of mere formalities. Numbers underlie all the laws of the Universe. Pythagorus was a great master indeed.

TemperanceAngel	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana A mere formality? When it comes to interpreting numbers, one cannot talk of mere formalities. Numbers underlie all the laws of the Universe. Pythagorus was a great master indeed. I love Pythagorus, he is a genius.... There are many different systems for numerology, all different in their own right. Waite may have been attention seeking or may have been a genius, this is not the point. What he did do was use a different system to Marseilles and before and this is OK, it's his interpretation of the Tarot and numerology. If it didn't work then it wouldn't be one of the biggest selling decks in the Universe :D XTAX

Diana	17 Feb 2004
Darn!!! I spent half an hour composing an post and I pressed the wrong button and it all disappeared. That'll teach me to not prepare my long posts first in Word... To define what is masculine and feminine in the Tarot, and if I simplify my beliefs rather extremely, I would say "masculine is active, feminine is passive." Getting back to the original post in this thread: TemperanceAngel, this is one of the most interesting threads we've had for a long time. It certainly makes one THINK. Just the first four then, 'cos I'm really pissed off that my post disappeared. 1) Bateleur : neither masculine nor feminine. The number one exists by itself - it is just the first spark that creates all the other numbers/arcana. 2) Papess: Number two is the Divine Womb - so therefore she is feminine. Passive...(even numbers are passive...) but oh so wise. 3) Empress: She is masculine. The three is a creative number - it is the result of 1 and 2 and therefore can generate great ideas. A three is a triangle - the top of the triangle is normally depicted at the top.... she generates ideas and intelligence. The first odd number - odd numbers are masculine. 4) Emperor: He is feminine...... The structure of Four is passive. It doesn't move. If it's passive... then to me it's feminine. (Which, when we get to the minor arcana can be a problem when you get a Four of Batons.... can be problematic if the person doesn't move his backside and will sometimes need a kick to get him on his way. But of course, that depends on the surrounding cards.) I have concentrated on numbers, because apart from them, I don't know how one can really get past preconceived ideas about the meanings of the cards. One has to be as objective as possible in this kind of exercice (methinks).

Diana	17 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold The trouble is - gender is always very political and also serious - and you would have been very lucky to get away with no discussion or debate at all. I just thought I'd point out for you, and also for others who may have not read TemperanceAngel's first post properly, that she said: "You must remember that we are talking about MASCULINE and FEMININE , not male and female . It is the principle, rather than the physical being." She specifically and most wisely left gender out of it.

firemaiden	17 Feb 2004
I've read through this whole thread a couple times now, and the more I think about it, the less I understand what is meant by masculine and feminine principles. Sometimes the more you think about something the less it makes sense. I've noticed that with words too, pick a word, any word, and repeat it over and over while playing on a swing (Okay, so its been a few years since I've tried this exercise) and at some point the sense will drain out of it, (like a shampoo bottle left open upside down) and you will be left will a very odd and silly sounding word to play with. Word... word...word... word... So masculine goes out and feminine goes in? Masculine is sharp and pointy, and feminine is soft and bendy? Bendy? no no, that's not right. Masculine protrudes and marches forward, femine receives and recedes? no no no, that can't be right... feminine envelops, surrounds, like a river, while masculine lies there still and silent, like a stone? no no, that can't be right...*firemaiden gives up and goes home...* P.S. I like Diana's story about cutting the end off the ham. It sounds like a true story. I bet it was Diana's Grandmother :D P.P.S. It would be interesting to hear more about the Tarot Café discussion, Temperance Angel. This thread is very interesting and has brought out some very suprising ideas -- I would never have thought of the Empress as representing a masuline principal, for example, or the Hermit as feminine principle, (but it makes sense). Now my question would be, in what way does this viewing angle alter our perception of the Tarot, and how might it inform how we do readings?

Moongold	17 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana To define what is masculine and feminine in the Tarot, and if I simplify my beliefs rather extremely, I would say "masculine is active, feminine is passive." Not everyone accepts this definition, and there is some debate about it. And if you don't accept it, then all the many assumptions conventionally based on the definition itself, are thrown in the air. That is, very simply,what I was saying in a light hearted way towards the end of the discussion. I don't propose to carry it any further, however, and this thread now goes into my "Do not watch category". Not interested in barbed comments about not reading things properly. Properly according to whom? Perhaps there might have been a better way of phrasing that personal observation. :( By the way, the Marseilles attributions are very interesting. Thanks for sharing them. Moongold

Nevada	17 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I've read through this whole thread a couple times now, and the more I think about it, the less I understand what is meant by masculine and feminine principles. Sometimes the more you think about something the less it makes sense. This is exactly why I gave the response I did. I can't bring myself to say any particular card is predominantly masculine or feminine, because I seem to find an argument for the opposite every time. I'm having a terribly Libra-ish time with this thread. :laugh: But it's a great question, a great thread, TA. Nevada

TemperanceAngel	17 Feb 2004
I love this thread, I never knew what would come out of it, but it really has made me think long and hard about what I believe in :) I have read all new posts and have to rush off now, but will be back later to reply. Great responses and thoughts everyone :D XTAX

TemperanceAngel	18 Feb 2004
Our Food As Medicine lecturer told us that story re: peoples eating and cooking habits and why? It's great :) Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden P.S. I like Diana's story about cutting the end off the ham. It sounds like a true story. I bet it was Diana's Grandmother :D P.P.S. It would be interesting to hear more about the Tarot Café discussion, Temperance Angel. This thread is very interesting and has brought out some very suprising ideas -- I would never have thought of the Empress as representing a masuline principal, for example, or the Hermit as feminine principle, (but it makes sense). At the Tarot Cafe, the woman giving the talk gave us Masculine and Feminine guidelines = ying/yang, inner/outer, night/day and so on and so forth... She talked about the Isis and Osiris myth, when Osiris gets killed by his jealous brother Seth and Isis puts him back together....blah blah blah...if you don't know the story then you will have to find it somewhere else... Anyways she talked about Isis being a woman and a Magician and Masculine, but also Feminine as well. I had been teaching a Tarot class all morning and hadn't eaten so was not fully listening...about 90% listening ;) She asked us to go into groups, *oh moan and groan, I just want to listen...* There were about 6 groups of say 3-6 people and within our group we had to assign Masculine or Feminine to a the Majors, well not all of them, we didn't have enough time. Our group didn't agree on much :laugh: Then each group said what had been assigned what and then other people were open to challenge that. I wish I had more energy, but it was fun and provoked many discussions, points and laughs... Most people agreed that they would not think the same every day they thought about it :) I decided to post it on here because it makes you think, I didn't want to give guidelines for the Masculine and Feminine. I wanted to leave that open because people have different ideas about this and I have liked hearing peoples thoughts on which Majors they assigned to and what principles they used....yes, gender was never a topic. (They are just cards after all......) XTAX

Diana	18 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Not everyone accepts this definition, and there is some debate about it. And if you don't accept it, then all the many assumptions conventionally based on the definition itself, are thrown in the air. That is, very simply,what I was saying in a light hearted way towards the end of the discussion. I don't propose to carry it any further, however, and this thread now goes into my "Do not watch category". Not interested in barbed comments about not reading things properly. Properly according to whom? Perhaps there might have been a better way of phrasing that personal observation. :( By the way, the Marseilles attributions are very interesting. Thanks for sharing them. Moongold 1) The definition for masculine and feminine, about being "active" and "passive", is based more or less on one of the numerous definitions one can find in dictionaries. Here is what my Webster, for instance, gives as one of the definitions for masculine, and this is the one I am referring to: "masculine: of or forming the formal, active, or generative principle of the cosmos." Strangely enough, the dictionary doesn't give the "feminine" version of this, but I think that is an oversight and all one has to do is to make it the opposite. Cosmic principle - nothing to do with the sex and gender of a person. 2) As to the "Marseille" attributions, I must protest humbly. These are not Marseille attributions. They are mine... based on what I understand at present about the Tarot Major Arcana. As someone pointed out recently (Rusty Neon, I think), the Marseille did not get published with a Little White (or any other colour) Book. Fortunately, in my opinion. I haven't a clue what the Marseille attributions would be for these Major Arcana - even whether there are any. 3) I hadn't noticed last night your second paragraph.... Sorry to think that you find my remarks barbed. I was just trying to point out to everyone (including you... because you mentioned specifically Gender) that TemperanceAngel asked us not to talk of gender, and I think that this was being lost sight of and the original intent of her thread, which was really fascinating, was getting slowly caught up in Gender Arguments. Great pity. Also, I do hope that we are NOT nearing the end of this discussion - I find it quite fascinating and hope this thread will go on for a long long time. (Perhaps you won't see this post, because you are not watching this thread anymore.... but at least you have given me the oppportunity to explain the "masculine" and "feminine" thingy.)

jmd	18 Feb 2004
I had not wanted to participate in especially the first couple of weeks of this thread, as it arose out of TemperanceAngel's reflections from the February meeting of Tarot Café. What happened is that in January, I presented reflections on the Masculine figures in the Major Arcana, and this was followed, in a quite different way (and intended to be so) by Jeni Bethell of a presentation regarding the Feminine cards in the Major Arcana. Jeni has a far more psychological-mythos approach the Tarot than I, and the contrast was well worth attending. In my own presentation, I included both the Hanged Man and the World card as 'Masculine' figures. This, despite the Hanged Man having a 'passive' aspect (and an even number), and the World card as having a figure which is more often viewed as clearly defined with female characteristics (I also realise that many decks, or at least the writings for the decks, talk of the card as androgenous/Herm(es-)Aphrodite). In Jeni's discussion, this aspect of active vs receptive, of engagement vs observation, of creation vs transformation were all, in various ways, key features. In many ways, she presented both the Papess/High Priestess and the Empress as Feminine, though for each, aspects which were also clearly of the more active or masculine characteristics were mentioned. Also, and as an example, relating the Isian saga and her rôle as Magician (with regards to the healing of the scorpion's sting to Amun, Jeni co-related that aspect of the fulness of Isis to the Bateleur as Magician). In January, I presented a series of cards as the inner transformation and maturation of the individual through various chronological stages and age-appropriate dispositions and characteristics... With regards to the cards and this thread generally, I suppose that it is fair to both say that some figures which are depicted clearly as women have more active characteristics or traits (ie, have traits stereotypically classified as masculine), and others have figures clearly depicted as men having more receptive or passive traits (ie, traits stereotypically characterised as feminine) - in some ways certainly showing the Tarot as having broader reflection of the human condition than may be otherwise assumed - part of the exercise with these two Tarot Café meetings, by the way, as well as providing some ways by which to engage in active reflection (masculine/feminine :D) on each card. As I mentioned in January, and as has been mentioned here and by others in various places, each and every card may be viewed as having masculine and feminine characteristics. Either looking at the figures, or alternatively working from characteristic understanding as to what femininity and masculinity are, certain attributions may be made. Taking the Empress, then, there is an obvious way in which, as woman, she is feminine. As active being, she is masculine... As a card numbered three, again, masculine characteristics are encountered. But perhaps I should too list my list, though I am but simple in this, and go first by image, and then reflect on number and active/receptive principle: Masculine cards: Bateleur/Magician (+) Emperor (-) Pope/Hierophant (+) Lover/s (-) Chariot (+) Hermit (+) Hanged Man (-) Sun (+) World (+) [nb below] Feminine cards: Papess/High Priestess (-) Empress (+) Justice (-) Wheel of Fortune (-) Strength (+) Temperance (-) Star (+) Moon (-) World (+) [nb above] Note that there are a number of cards I do not include in either list - and I include the World in both. Of the cards omitted from the lists above are: XIII (un-named/Death) (+) the Devil (+) the Tower (-) [often claimed to be masculine/phallic] Judgement (-) the Fool (+-) My additive (+) and subtractive (-) signs indicate the card's numerological active/receptive, or masculine/feminine orientation. Personally, however, I tend to first consider the image. ...and this was going to be just a very short post :)

TemperanceAngel	18 Feb 2004
I forgot to mention that jmd did a talk on the masculine figures in tarot in Jan, I arrived very late and just caught the end. Wish I had heard it all and thanks jmd for participating in this thread. Perhaps it has been somewhat of interest to you to hear other peoples thoughts.... I also must apologise for not mentioning Jeni's name or jmd's, I wanted everyone not to have any outside thoughts in their mind when beginning the exercise... Quote: Originally posted by jmd I had not wanted to participate in especially the first couple of weeks of this thread, as it arose out of TemperanceAngel's reflections from the February meeting of Tarot Café. What happened is that in January, I presented reflections on the Masculine figures in the Major Arcana Diana, it's a real ##### when posts get deleted...XTAX

Major Tom	18 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana To define what is masculine and feminine in the Tarot, and if I simplify my beliefs rather extremely, I would say "masculine is active, feminine is passive." Personally, and perhaps more controversally but with the same disclaimer I would put this as masculine is active, feminine is receptive. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Not everyone accepts this definition, and there is some debate about it. And if you don't accept it, then all the many assumptions conventionally based on the definition itself, are thrown in the air. I've often said that everyone lives in their own head. Having said that, there are areas and I think archtypes encompass at least a part of those, where most people agree. This forms our consensus reality. Agreed that there is some debate on what forms masculine and feminine, but actually, if you really think about it, if you move too far from biology, you end up living in a world no one else shares. ;) Doesn't the fully integrated human being embody equal amounts of the masculine and feminine? :confused: Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I don't propose to carry it any further, however, and this thread now goes into my "Do not watch category". This statement strikes me as rather curious. Is there any particular reason you wanted to end the discussion? I rather suspect you are still watching. :laugh:

Diana	18 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom Personally, and perhaps more controversally but with the same disclaimer I would put this as masculine is active, feminine is receptive. Caught your disclaimer in mid-air and have put it in my bag. Thank you, Major Tom. :)

TemperanceAngel	18 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom I've often said that everyone lives in their own head. Having said that, there are areas and I think archtypes encompass at least a part of those, where most people agree. This forms our consensus reality. I must say I like how you phrased that MT, consensus reality, very nice ;) XTAX

jmd	19 Feb 2004
No need to apologise at all, TemperanceAngel... our names, with regards to this thread, were certainly not needed. The only reason I included them is that I spoke, and did not otherwise know how to mention it without mentioning it, if that makes any sense. The only reason I did not wish to jump in to the discussion first off is that the concepts and ideas discussed may very well emerge quite differently here than as presented at Tarot Café (as they indeed need to, as the Forums provide a time dimension unavailable during an afternoon presentation). Also, being aware that a number of people who turn up to T.Café may be reading this, I was hesitant to mention my own reflections in the thread's opening stages. Certainly what I said on the day (back in January) I have not here mentioned - nor would it probably be appropriate in post form. I personally have indeed enjoyed this thread, and the variety of views encountered here is what I personally strive to encourage at the Café :) But this is not about the Café, but about the Masculine/Feminine aspects of the cards... Like Major Tom, I too tend to use the word 'receptive' rather than passive. Receptivity may contain an inner incredible activity which 'passivity' seems to, by virtual definition, reject. My preferred dichotomy - if one needs to be made (which I have reservations about) - is therefore also 'active/receptive' rather than 'active/passive'. The first pair directs us not to mutually exclusive categories, but rather to different axis, each of which has its own inner polarity - this, of course, is just my view :)

Diana	19 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Like Major Tom, I too tend to use the word 'receptive' rather than passive. Receptivity may contain an inner incredible activity which 'passivity' seems to, by virtual definition, reject. Yes, me too. Thanks to Major Tom. Although... my dictionary does say that passive means "receptive to outside impressions or influences". But it has too many other "negative" meanings of inertia and what-not, so "receptive" is what I will use in future. :)

firemaiden	19 Feb 2004
Well, I was thinking that feminine is the element that surrounds and envelops, (wind, water), and masuline is the thing which stays (rock), but then, I remembered this poem: By Victor Hugo: its a "scene de menage" (a lover's quarrel) between a flower (la fleur -- feminine) and a butterfly (le papillon -- masculine)

tmgrl2	22 Feb 2004
Hi TA...just finished reading this post (it isn't closed, I guess?) ...you had directed me here when I mentioned Magician as masculine...very interesting....all of your insights. I am learning> Nothing to add. Only thing I was going to say, JMD said in his posting....When I think of the Strenthgh card in RW....I feel that there is a woman Opening (or closing? depending on your take) the mouth of the lion. I feel, too, that both active/receptive (and I like these terms instead of "passive" for feminine) are in all of us, but since the stereotypical image of "strength" might be expected to have a "masculine" picture...using the feminine is a way of pushing us all to seek the inner strength everyong has within...I am still in awe of everyone's knowledge as I read through threads.

TemperanceAngel	06 Mar 2004
Number Property of the number 1 monad(unity) generator of numbers, the number of reason 2 dyad(diversity, opinion) first true female number 3 triad(harmony = unity + diversity) first true male number 4 (justice, retribution) squaring of accounts 5 (marriage) = first female + first male 6 (creation) = first female + first male + 1 ? 10 (Universe) tetractys I found the above on a website about Pythagorus and tetractys (thanks Umbrae!), and found it to be oh so interesting as number 3 is male! Wanted to share this with you all :) XTAX

Shade	12 Mar 2004
so I'm not a numerology guru but if 5 is male + female.... wouldn't 6 be male + male and 4 female + female?

TemperanceAngel	12 Mar 2004
Shade, I just cut and paste that from a website XTAX

jmd	12 Mar 2004
With numerology, there are a number of ways people work with the numbers. One common and long established way is to consider the qualities of the numbers in themselves. For example, all even numbers are 'balanced', and hence stable. If one draws polygons with the number of sides indicated, then again a 'balanced' figure emerges, or one which appears to be in repose. Odd numbers, by comparison, cannot be balanced (on, for example, a scale). When polygons are drawn with the respective number of sides, they give the appearance of active movement. It is partly these considerations which have earned their appelations as active and receptive, or masculine and feminine. Of course, as one gets higher than the most basic numbers, more than simple figure may be drawn. With twelve, for example, one may 'compose' the number by a variety of additive methods (6+6; or 5+7; or 1+1+2+3+4; etc). Here these more simple figures or numbers may be deemed to 'construct' the higher 'compound' number - and various new relations emerge (such as 'marriage' for five, as the 'compound' of two and three). Reflecting on the lower numbers may certainly reveal wonderful interactions - and personally really value these.

Moongold	29 Mar 2004
I discovered this old thread today whilst looking for something else. and within the trhead this conribution from Alex, scientist, explaining why some basic assumptions people take for granted around masculine/feminine attributions should be questioned. The thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12291&highlight=Kings This is simply added to contribute another dimension to the discussion. Ah, how I miss Alex, her wit and intellect , and also remember her with affection :). This is a sensitive subject and I don't want to debate it now, but simply to illustrate that there is ground to other perspectives and that it is OK to question long established assumptions. It is the Uranus in me. I could not remember where this material was earlier. Many blessings. Quote: Originally posted by Alex Moongold, The little I know about some of these things is that the words "receptive" and "passive" have often been associated with the feminine principle whereas "active" has been often associated with the masculine principle. But these are in part myths. These myths are reflected in the discipline of biology in tales like "the sperm is active while the egg is passive". We learn in school that the spermatozoids actively race in order to reach a stupid, passive egg. The reality is a bit different. The female genital tract of many animal species can help direct the sperm towards the eggs, and the eggs are able to actively select gametes (sperm) rather than just passively wait for a race winner. The active role of the female in the reproductive process has been only recently acknowledged by some biologists, but the great majority of scientists only grant females the role of "choosing" or "selecting" a suitable male amongst many; and even this glimpse of active behavior is often twisted into a passive role like that "the males compete among themselves, and the best one is chosen by the female". Social roles have clouded not only our understanding of human relations, but also the very understanding of the way by which nature truly operates. The active/passive roles as attributed to male/female principles are in need of serious re-evaluation. On the other hand, men and women ARE different. We have different needs and different natures. These have to be acknowledged; otherwise we will be the ones to suffer the consequences of wanting to be "like" men. I am fine with the Kings, I like to have them around, and if they are the bosses, I'm fine with that too: as long as they are fair. Besides, men are such stimulating things to have around. Enough of that Alex.

TemperanceAngel	01 Apr 2004
Moongold I knew you wouldn't be able resist this thread completely :laugh: XTAX

Moongold	01 Apr 2004
And I knew that you would think that, Temperance *Shrugs*. More important than this are the ideas :)

firemaiden	01 Apr 2004
I liked hearing about the activity of the egg- especially the selection process. See I knew it all along!! It has to be the same in microscope as in macroscope, the male suitors battle eachother for access, and the female chooses (usually)... I agree that feminine and masculine are slippery concepts and almost impossible to define if you look at it for too long, that is, unless you are talking about computer cables. :laugh:

TemperanceAngel	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold And I knew that you would think that, Temperance *Shrugs*. Really?? You knew what I was thinking??! That's amazing, Moongold, you must be psychic :joke: XTAX Now Firemaiden, as for slippery concepts....*sheesh, don't think I will go down that path....* XTAX

Moongold	04 Apr 2004
TA - I thought you might be interested in this :) MG http://www.astrologycom.com/quetzalchat.html

firemaiden	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Now Firemaiden, as for slippery concepts....*sheesh, don't think I will go down that path....* XTAX Whoops... *firemaiden scratches head*... whence commeth all the inuendi...I didn't intend any, truly!!! (Language just does that!)

TemperanceAngel	04 Apr 2004
Thanks for the great link MG....FM, unintended inuendo is often the most poetic... XTAX

The Masculine and Feminine, or the other way around... thread was originally posted on 08 Feb 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.