Wands=Air & Sword=Fire

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

ros	27 Feb 2004
The Celtic Dragon Tarot by D.J. Conway & Lisa Hunt has : "The only differences will be that I associate Wands with the Element of Air, and Swords with the Element of Fire. This association has always made more sense to me than the reverse, since Wands are primarily a mental ritual tool and Swords are an energy or action tool. This is not a new idea, nor mine alone." Does anyone use the Wands & Sword this way? This Deck is beautiful & I enjoy it but this little issue just ruins it for me. I understand it but I will probably just use it the way I know. AUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jmd	27 Feb 2004
This is indeed the way I too tend to prefer elemental attributions, though there are yet others... Elements and suits are independent, and various artists and 'traditions' have made different correlations (including Swords with Water, by the way).

lunalafey	28 Feb 2004
somehow- in the many years of a relationship with my one and only deck- I did not use elemental associations. The decks book mentioned; this suit-that element- but I never worked them in and the book never got into detail of the associations and why. Then came deck#2, the decks book was easier to read {other deck-book was written by those who find the english languge awkard} and from that I 'found' the element/suit association. Deck #2 had swords as fire and wands as air. I have since aquired many decks- some are Sw/fire Wd/air...some are Sw/air Wd/fire....I will work with what the deck specifies with no problems. Some decks are just elemental- this is where I have trouble, for the creator of the deck may have wanted the swords influence for air....or possibly fire....at that point I don't know- I look at images to find clues the artist has left.....and still I get confussed- because I always lean towards swords as fire, and wands as air.... I don't know if it is the influence of my 2nd deck- but this is the combination that I relate to the best. It just makes more sense to me.

dolphinprincess	28 Feb 2004
.. I am used to the typical tarot associations of Wands = Fire and Swords = Air. But, I recently purchased the Celtic Dragon Tarot which switches these correspondances. I like the deck.. but I'm a little confused... When I look at the Wand cards and Sword cards, the meanings are pretty much the same as in a normal RWS deck.. so how exactly do you read the same meanings, but alter the elements?? For example - Air (swords) usually deals with thoughts, communication, etc.. and Fire (wands) with creativity, action, etc.. In the Celtic Dragon deck, Swords are Fire.. yet the pictures/meaning still follow the RWS pictures - wich deals more with thought etc.. and vise versa... I hope this makes sense... i'm just confused so I apologize if I sound confused while explaining it.. I'm just not sure if I should just ingore this switch and read the cards as I am used to... Or if there is a way to read them differently..? Thank you for any insight!!

Phoenyx*	28 Feb 2004
The Witches' Tarot has that same switched association. Because of that I could never get into it.

Star Spirit	29 Feb 2004
I own this deck and I love it, but I don't go by the books. There are a lot of decks that go by this association, but personally I associate Swords with air and Wands with fire. It's personal preference, so don't let what the book says get in your way.

dadsnook2000	29 Feb 2004
When I use my Witches Tarot I shift to the swords/fire and wands/air approach to interpreting the cards. For me this seems to be easy enough and it does have some impact on my readings. This deck has given me some extrodinary results. For my other decks I use what appears to be the mainstream approach of swords/air and wands/fire. I believe that our intentions prior to laying out the cards are what shape the resulting cards and meanings. As noted earlier, the card illustrations help to give unique meanings within each deck. Dave

dolphinprincess	29 Feb 2004
This concept is still baffling me... Take the suit of Swords in the Celtic Dragon... for the most part, the images reflect RWS meanings... My question is how does the change to Fire change or augment those meanings...? I guess I assumed when Wands=Air & Sword=Fire, then the swords would take on the typical "wand" meanings and vise versa... This isn't the case.. so I'm not sure how to use the changing elements in reading the cards... Does this make sense?

Alissa	29 Feb 2004
I have always associated Wands with Air, and Swords with Fire. I find air and mentality issues correlated, as with ego issues and fire.

lunalafey	29 Feb 2004
DP- I think about this very same thing- hence the confussion I face on occasion. here's my logic- Swords is fire- fire is about destruction, swords can destroy. there's the saying fight fire with fire- this is an action of defence. A sword is used to defend. Fire is associated with passion, passion is a driving force in in one's life. Many times a sword is drawn & driven in the name of passion. The sword is mental, our brain function by transmitting information by an 'electrical' charge. Swords do not come of the air, they are forged {an action} with the use of fire. Wands an air, wands deal with the spiritual aspects of life, and to me that is something that is never seen- when can we 'see' air? we know it's there, just as that spiritual essence that we feel but cannot touch. Some decks wands are portrayed by wooden staffs, wood comes from trees, trees are nurished by 'air' the air has created the wand where the fire created the sword. The creative aspect of wands in connection with air can be seen as an insperation, this is not a thought, insperation is something that enters our mind complete, with no thought. bang, there it is. Air/breath- we, as modern humans have forgetten how to breath properly- {global stresses} when humans breath correctly- there is a power given unto us. Breath opens the doors to the spirit world. Part of Yoga is about breathing- I'm sure you Yoga folks can say that after your breathing excercises that you find yourself very calm and at peace. Your spiritual being is brought forth.

dolphinprincess	29 Feb 2004
thank you very much, luna! your post really helped me! :D :D

MeeWah	01 Mar 2004
Here is a much older thread in this forum: Do suits represent seasons: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=2621

Thirteen	01 Mar 2004
And, in the opposing camp.... Quote: Originally posted by lunalafey Swords is fire- fire is about destruction, swords can destroy. So can words--destroy worse than any fire because they can destroy a person's reputation, honor, soul. Hence, if swords are destructive, they're words/air. More importantly, swords, unlike fire, don't burn uncontrollably--but, excuse the pun, pointedly. They are used against enemies, with intent, like words. Think of two fencers--fencing with words, fencing with swords. All air. Fire, passion, is like that which burns at the end of a wooden torch--staff/wand. It burns until there is nothing left to burn. Hence--wood staff = fire. Quote: Fire is associated with passion, passion is a driving force in in one's life. Many times a sword is drawn & driven in the name of passion....Swords do not come of the air, they are forged {an action} with the use of fire. On the other hand, you really can't use a sword if you're not trained to use it. Hence, unlike a wooden stick (beating someone in the heat of passion), you use a sword with caculation, with the mind. You have to be cleverer than your opponent, or they will use their sword--the extention of their focused, cutting mind--to get the better of you. Same as in a debate. As for the forged in fire: My logic: fire may be the element that helps creates the sword--water too, as it hardens the sword quickly and Earth as metal is of the Earth--but when a sword is hard cold steel, it whistles by through the air. When it actually IS what it IS and does what it does, then it is air. A sword communicates intent, cuts like words and has two edges/a point, like meanings. All air. Quote: The creative aspect of wands in connection with air can be seen as an insperation To the contrary, it is FIRE that is the creative force (witness fire's creative use in making swords--as well as forging any other metal item, blowing glass, etc.). Ergo--if wands are creative, then they must be fire. Quote: [/b] Part of Yoga is about breathing- I'm sure you Yoga folks can say that after your breathing excercises [/b] But, once again, that's a matter of control. Swords are controlled. Wands are not. Wands are aimed and blast their fire. Wands dance like the flickering flames. Wands blaze, like light and give off sparks of magic. All fire. ;) Not that I'm trying to convert you or anyone else, Lunafey. I know you were only trying to explain how a deck could have the fire/sword, air/wand association, and how you see things. But any discussion on the reasoning behind these association ends up with the two sides debating which way it should go. Thing is, using logic, a person can associate any of the suits with any element. Why, after all, should a wand, being wood that grows out of the Earth, be fire OR Air? Why not Earth? In the end, it's more a matter of what feels right than any logical association.

lunalafey	02 Mar 2004
[quote]Originally posted by Thirteen And, in the opposing camp.... So can words--destroy worse than any fire because they can destroy a person's reputation, honor, soul. Hence, if swords are destructive, they're words/air. same camp? different mountain? ooo- it still seems the same to me with fire- double edged sword/double talk....I don't see how air can be more destructive than fire. Fire can be uncontrolled- like words and actions and thoughts- since most actions starts with a thought. Air is something less tangable- thus a bit on the mysterious side. how can one control what they cannot 'hold'?? But, once again, that's a matter of control. Swords are controlled. Wands are not. Wands are aimed and blast their fire. Wands dance like the flickering flames. Wands blaze, like light and give off sparks of magic. All fire. I see magic being of air- again, something that can't be 'held'. it is of the 'whole' {invision earth, surrounded by air} and a 'lightness' Fire is more controllable than air- and fire would not exist with out air. I feel wands are more powerful than swords- as so the control over fire by removing the air- ;) Not that I'm trying to convert you or anyone else, Lunafey. I know you were only trying to explain how a deck could have the fire/sword, air/wand association, and how you see things. But any discussion on the reasoning behind these association ends up with the two sides debating which way it should go. Thing is, using logic, a person can associate any of the suits with any element. Why, after all, should a wand, being wood that grows out of the Earth, be fire OR Air? Why not Earth? I know you are not :D Everyone is different in thier reasoning and logic- what I expressed helped someone, as well as what you express will click in anothers mind...;) I stated that I am versatile- the air swords/ wands fire, also makes some sense to me as well- And YES? how come wands is not Earth??? and Pentacles Fire??? LOL- sometimes I make no sense to myself- I always enjoy another's take...versatile- things in my mind can change without notice

firemaiden	02 Mar 2004
moderator note: the two concurrent threads on this subject have been merged:

dolphinprincess	02 Mar 2004
This thread has been really helpful for me - thank you for the excellent explanations on both sides! However, I think my brain prefers the Wands/Fire and Swords/Air correlations.... It just works for me.. and when I try to do it the other way, I wind up confusing myself in the end... Funny, but the switch didn't seem to bother me in the Shapeshifter.. perhaps bc I only really use that deck for myself.. and I focus more on the animals.. and read it intuitively (almost like an oracle).... But its driving my nutty in the Celtic Dragon!!!!!!! I just don't like it.... :confused:

Macavity	02 Mar 2004
I suppose, taken in isolation, it doesn't matter very much what elemental attribute an individual card has... derived divinatory ideas, notwithstanding! :D I guess it might assume more significance if you begin to look at cards in combination. If e.g. you were following the ideas of Elemental Dignities, it would be important... as perhaps if you were to use the elemental interactions to suggest "meaning"? But even traditional emnities and friendly relations between elements are mostly convention... Aside from Fire and Water? ;) I can't think of a deck in my collection that breaks with Fire=Wands etc. but ISTR some (e.g. Crystal Tarot, Reneissance - B.W.) on my wish list, might? Recently I was rather taken aback by ideas that challenged MY "traditional" elemental association for even the RWS, so you never know. It just seems that, as in many areas, we are required to be "multilingual" in such matters? All grist for the mill, I guess... :) Macavity

firemaiden	02 Mar 2004
I liked it in the beginning for all my decks to have swords = air, because it was easier to learn. Now I'm finding I like the variety that a new twist gives (i.e. Crystal - swords = water). The elemental attributions are pretty slippery, and the concept of elements itself is a bit odd to me (where is that periodic table song when you need it?) Instead of thinking in terms of elements - it's probably safter to think in terms of suits. Coins = coins swords = swords wands = wand cups = cups that way nothing changes :D

The Wands=Air & Sword=Fire thread was originally posted on 27 Feb 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.