EUREKA!!! (reading with pips)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

punchinella	14 Mar 2004
For the last couple of weeks, Marseilles has been screaming in my ear: read with me, read with me, learn to read with me . . . I find myself suddenly, for no clear reason, obsessed with Marseilles-style decks (well, maybe the poll in the decks forum has something to do with the obsession . . . & the fact that I just purchased a Fournier . . . ) Anyway, I've been feeling resolved. I WILL read with pips, or die trying. & I don't think superimposing RWS meanings onto Marseilles is exactly what I'm after, either. I mean--I want to know why Diana & others are so devoted to this type of deck . . . It must do something special, something unique that other 'illustrated' decks do not do . . . Finally, it dawns on me. The obvious, the glaring, the unmistakable . . . the thing that I can't BELIEVE I've been failing to see: The trumps are the key! This is so ridiculously easy isn't it. Trump constellations feed meaning into pip cards. 8 of pentacles (/deniers/whatever) equals, essentially, Justice/The Star manifesting in the realm of the material. HOW COULD I HAVE MISSED SUCH OBVIOUS TRUTH??? The entire deck, seen from this perspective, glows with interior structure. Correspondences amongst the cards become joints, beams, & rib-vaults . . . The trumps themselves are windows, letting in light. I'm such a dope. (Well, no, now I'm enlightened. But I've been such a dope.) --How come nobody told me about this earlier? --Maybe it's just something I was meant to figure out on my own??? Now, I think, would be a good time to start a chart (constellations along the top, suits along the side . . . ) Thanks for your patience in putting up with my eureka-moment . . . :D :D :D P.

Lee	14 Mar 2004
Hi punchinella, I think it's great that you discovered this, it probably has more impact because you came up with it yourself. I'm not at all trying to diminish your discovery, like I said, I think it's great. That method of assigning meanings has, though, been floating around, although it's not given as much attention as the suit-plus-number method. There's several threads on Aeclectic where it's mentioned, although some of those threads aren't easily found (I have to go to sleep soon or I would find them for you myself). There's a book, "How to Read the Tarot" by Sylvia Abraham, a little paperback, it's written on a very basic level but it talks about that method, i.e. considering the pip cards as manifestations of the Majors as applied to the suits. Another book that does this is Sandor Konraad's "Classic Tarot Spreads." Personally I think the Majors-influenced method has more potential than the plain suit-plus-numbers method. I'm glad you found a method that excites you. That's half the battle right there! -- Lee :)

punchinella	14 Mar 2004
You know Lee, on previous occasions I have done searches for threads on how to read with pips, with shockingly little success (just before writing this, I noticed a boldface thread entitled 'links on how to read' & I suppose I should go explore this . . . :eek: ) BTW, in my initial post I did NOT mean to imply that I thought I had discovered something new for anyone other than myself ( :) ) By 'suit plus number' I gather you mean that preconceptions of what the numbers 1-10 mean are combined with suit meanings??? --This is the way that reading w/ pips has been explained to me before. But I'm not really satisfied with it . . . It seems a bit arbitrary, because half the meaning is coming from outside the deck itself. Whereas if one uses majors to determine what the numbers mean, then it all originates within the deck. Which just seems a bit tidier :D I'm soooo excited about this :D :D :D (Why ARE there so few threads on this subject, anyway???)

laura_borealis	14 Mar 2004
I know I've seen a few references on relating majors to pips here and there, but it doesn't seem to be widely known. I want to learn more about this too. If you discover a good resource, punchinella, would you post a link? :)

punchinella	14 Mar 2004
:confused: I don't know how to post links :confused:

Star Spirit	14 Mar 2004
Punchinella-- Just copy and paste, it automatically converts URLs if you have that option checked (it's right under your posting window). I think your discovery is great, also. I have related majors to minors occasionally, but it's not a system I've used widely and after you reminded me of it, I'm thinking of studying it more. It would be especially useful in reading unillustrated pips--as I've wondered (silly me) how that's really possible and you've made me go..."duh". It reminded me of that Simpsons episode where Homer hijacks the ice cream truck and it tips over on its side when the buyers are chasing him, and one guy says, "Aww I can't decide without the pictures!" I feel like I've been saying that every time I look at pips :laugh:

Ilithiya	15 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella The trumps are the key! This is so ridiculously easy isn't it. Trump constellations feed meaning into pip cards. 8 of pentacles (/deniers/whatever) equals, essentially, Justice/The Star manifesting in the realm of the material. HOW COULD I HAVE MISSED SUCH OBVIOUS TRUTH??? Could you explain this? I'm afraid I'm not getting it, and I think that this would cure my aversion to pipped decks... I assume that in the deck you're working with, #8 is Justice. Does The Star tie in Justice with it since it's a case of 1+7=8? Now, just to make sure... say, 5 Pentacles. Would this be a case of The Chariot and Temperance (1+4=5) manifesting? If so, how is it interpreted? So horribly confused... :D Illy

Star Spirit	15 Mar 2004
That is exactly what she means, Illithiya. All the majors tend to relate to the minors. Ex. the Aces relate to 1: Magician (spark, creation, etc) and say, 9: Hermit relates to the 9s (retreat, introspection, isolation, etc). 7: Chariot relates to the 7s (action, control, etc). The higher trumps can relate as well in smaller ways, ie. 9s could relate to the Hermit as well as the Moon (18, 1+8). If you compare them all it's really very interesting.

Diana	15 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella --How come nobody told me about this earlier? punchinella: You make me smile. This has been mentioned numerous times in old threads. But of course, if any member reads all the threads on Aeclectic, that means they never sleep! :D You know punchinella, when one is ready, the Tarot shows you the way.... The signs have been there all the time. But sometimes we are not prepared to see them, for numerous and sometimes good reasons. The Tarot of Marseille particularly is an Initiatory Journey, an Inititiation in itself. (Far more than the Waite deck which is more in the realm of an oracle, and the Thoth deck which is based on magic. Both fine decks in their own right....) Any Initiation is a personal journey. If someone does it for you, then you will be led up the wrong path, because it is not your path, but someone elses. I am very very happy, I can't tell you how much, that you are not super-imposing the Waite meanings on the Marseille minors, even if later you will find that some of them do coincide. Also, dear punchinella, I wish to remind you that the Tarot journey in the Marseille deck is not the journey of the Fool, but of the Bateleur..... And also, have you understood why VIII is Justice and why XI is Strength? ((((((punchinella)))))) P.S. The suit+numbers method, and the method of tying the numbers to the Trumps, in the end are more or less the same thing. Because the Trumps are also based on numbers.... and the suits just define which element you are dealing with. So actually, you're working with exactly the same tools. Numbers are numbers. You'll never get away from them. The whole damn universe is based on numbers.

Jewel-ry	15 Mar 2004
Hi punchinella, Ccongratualtions! I am working with suit+number but also bring in the Major connection too sometimes. As Diana says, they are much of the same thing anyway. I often will read suit+number and then when I make the Major connection it is similar. Also I think its great that you have found a starting point. That is IMO half the battle. Once you have a starting point you will find that you can bring in other ways and experiment until you find what is right for you. I am still very much novice at this but am sticking with it. I am increasingly enjoying these old decks and am even finding myself drawn a little into the History as I am beginning to find out that it does impact on the meaning of the card. There are a few Marseille study things going on in the H&I, why don't you join us? J :)

punchinella	15 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana And also, have you understood why VIII is Justice and why XI is Strength? Well, not exactly, no . . . except that if one thinks in this way (viewing constellations as SO important) then the numbering system becomes non-negotiable. If it were fluid, everything would just fall apart. Actually, your insistence on original numbering was one of the first things that I thought of, when this light first dawned in my brain. But as to the specific reason, i.e. the logic behind it, no. Hmmmn . . . Justice with the Star, High Priestess with Strength . . . Strength with the Star, High Priestess with Justice . . . High Priestess & Justice seem all right to me (natural enough) but I'm not so sure about Strength & the Star . . . I think Justice does go better with the Star, although it would be difficult to put a finger on why. I'd like to understand this, but for now I can simply accept it because it's the original (& therefore, from this perspective, non-negotiable) way. P. (Oh, & I guess Judgment/the Angel goes with High Priestess & Strength too. Oh me oh my, what can this all mean. I evidently have a lot of thinking to do.)

Nevada	20 Mar 2004
Punchinella, I do this, especially if there are more than one of a particular number. If there are two or more fours, for instance, I'll consider the Emperor to have influence in the reading. I also add up all the numbers in the spread and relate the resulting number to a trump card. In other words, if the spread adds up to 25 (I include any trump cards in this tally, but no court cards), then I see the Chariot (2 + 5 = 7) as being the essence of the reading. I'm still experimenting with both of these methods and have not yet incorporated them in my readings for others. To me, everything about a reading carries meaning. :) Nevada

lunakasha	20 Mar 2004
THANK YOU Punchinella! I just discovered this thread....and am SO glad I did, LOL! I have been wanting to start working with the Marseille, but have steered clear because: 1)I don't have a CLUE how to read unillustrated pips and 2) there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on how to do this....or so I thought! ;) But today, thanks to your/this thread and some helpful folks over at H & I, I FINALLY feel like I have a place to start....and as Lee said, that is half the battle! :D PLEASE do keep posting your thoughts/discoveries here....you will be helping countless people like myself! And I promise to throw in my two cents as soon as I get my Fournier deck and officially get started.... :) Luna

Shalott	22 Mar 2004
Thanks you so much for posting this and clarifying et al...GOSH I've been wanting to read with my 1JJ Swiss or get Hadar's Marseilles and the 5-star Visconti...but I'm always Why? I don't get the pips at all! NOW I can make a go of it! Probably not immediately, although I will be in such a hurry to open my 1JJ Swiss deck when I get home I might tear the box! :D

firemaiden	22 Mar 2004
what a happy refreshing thread! thank you Punchinella :)

punchinella	22 Mar 2004
Well, since starting this thread I haven't had much time to study (WAY too much homework :eek: ) but I have found that sometimes, with card-for-the-day for example, the implication(s) of trump:suit are a bit more penetrating/hard to take than standard RWS . . . for example, the nines. In RWS, Cups/Pentacles nines are very happy cards . . . but I'm not so sure about the implications of expressing Hermit through materiality, or through emotion . . . well, RWS nine pents is just this I suppose, but in a decidedly happy way. Sans RWS picture, it seems to me that there's just as much potential for isolation in a negative sense, & the same with 9 of cups. Hmmmn, is what I'm saying . . . that this way of reading offers . . . greater depth??? --Did those words just cross my fingertips??? Woooah, :D I can't believe my (ears) P. (Oh & Nevada, thank you, I'm inspired by your add-up-all-the-#s at the end technique, this too seems so obvious doesn't it. I can't believe I didn't think of doing that before either! :| )

yve	22 Mar 2004
Maybe i've missed something, but I don't follow how you relate the majors/trumps to the pips? What if in a spread no majors/trumps are turned up? For Tarot Dummies like myself, would anyone be willing to elaborate/explain/clarify this for me? I too have some Marseille style decks and have not to this point learned to do readings with them, and didn't know how to approach it without relating them to the Rider style decks....am I understanding that some knowledge of numerology may be beneficial?

Shalott	23 Mar 2004
OK, I *think* I understand this method, so maybe typin out an explanation will help me, too: I don't believe it matters if the trump card in question actually appears in a reading. And especially if you look at the trumps as being like Fate or karmic aspects that are "bigger" than "everyday" minor cards, then a 7 pip would carry not only a particular aspect of the Chariot, (aspects meaning the earth, air, water, fire) but also carry some of the Tower (16, 1+6=7) as well. So, if you got a 7 of Wands and no Chariot or Tower, the 7 of Wands still carries influence from Chariot and Tower...does this make sense? Do I even have this correct? LOL As far as numerology goes, there is a brief section on it in the Idiot's Guide to Tarot and Fortune Telling, which I am currently studying until it falls apart on me...and I skimmed through that after reading this thread, only to discover that what Diana posted early is indeed right on (not that I doubted...) that this could be a method that *replaces* a deep knowledge of numerology, since the majors are already related to numerology. I don't know a lot about numerology, my dad is into that more, but what I've picked up from him is that 1's are beginnings, 10's are the end of a cycle. But then, knowing Tarot, 10's are also a REbeginning, since 1+0=1...a second cycle, if you will. Like Death and pip 10's...they aren't the very end, but a clearing away of the old to make room for the new... Hope this helps... :)

Star Spirit	23 Mar 2004
Shalott has it right, yve. It doesn't matter if those cards show up in a reading, it's just a mental exercise for reading the pips. Like if a 7 (any suit) pip shows up, and you go "huh?" without the picture, just mentally relate it to its corresponding major. It's just a method to help you understand them in a reading. So in this case, the Major would be 7: Chariot so you'd think of keywords and mental images and say, okay, for example, relating to the Chariot... 7 of Cups = care and precision when making choices, not moving too quickly 7 of Pentacles = waiting, holding out, giving things room to grow, not forcing them 7 of Wands = fighting a battle, being cunning and steadfast in order to prevail 7 of Swords = stealing away, hiding, being clever and taking a shortcut in order to escape All of these cards hold the essence of the Chariot; motion, care, control. And, perhaps, a little bit of 16: Tower if you want to go that far and expand (7=1+6=16). All of the 7's could have a little Tower in them as well, for example, complication, a rude awakening, difficult circumstances, fast change, etc. Although you really don't have to go that far unless you feel it is necessary or enjoy it. Basically all you need to know for this is the numbers of all the majors (or at least 1-9 if you just want to keep it simple) and make sure you have established in your mind whether, to you, 8 or 11 are Strength or Justice, since that will change your definition a bit on those two. Other than that, it's pretty simple :) Hope this helped.

The EUREKA!!! (reading with pips) thread was originally posted on 14 Mar 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.