The Great Unanswered Question (at least for me) ...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Nevada	20 Mar 2004
I find myself over and over again looking at my cards from a context of numbers, and growing frustrated by the differences in the numbers assigned to Justice and Strength. I learned to read using Voyager and Thoth, both of which designate Justice (Balance, Adjustment) as VIII and Strength (Lust) as XI. This was not a problem as long as I used only those two decks. I read for 15 years or so this way without a hitch. However, now I own several other decks that switch the numbering of these two major arcana cards. The problem occurs when I want to relate numbered suit cards back to majors of the same number, or to assign a numerological designation to a reading. It also occurs when I calculate someone's soul card. I'm not interested in the history, or why the various designers have used different systems. I'm only trying to come to some reliable way of dealing with the differences. How do you reconcile these differences between your decks? Nevada

lunakasha	20 Mar 2004
Hi Nevada! Let me see if I can help.... The Justice/Strength numbers being reversed has not been an issue for me personally...just as you had always used decks that were numbered Justice/VIII and Strength/XI, my decks (RWS influenced) were always the opposite! This is fine at first, you get used to that particular system...but it gets tricky when you start working with a deck that flips the numbers around. You mentioned that you often use numerology in your readings, and this is what is causing problems: you have to decide if you are going to go by the card TITLE or the card NUMBER....because you are not able to use them together, it doesn't work for you. I guess my suggestion would be that, when using these "backward" decks, you might want to decide beforehand whether your reading will focus on the titles of the Majors or the numbers...but not both. Maybe you only need to do this with Strength/Justice, rather than all of the Majors? I don't know if I am making any sense here....just trying to help but maybe all I've done is make it more confusing....:eek: Sorry if that's the case....but I did try....LOL! Anyone else care to jump in here??? :) Luna

Imagemaker	20 Mar 2004
I've done little with Marseille decks, but have thought the titles were more important for *my* approach to reading--intuitive reactions to whatever arises (which may include numbers or may not). So I have just arbitrarily rearranged the Marseille decks to have Strength in the 8th position. If it comes to a conflict, I am not one for caring about tradition or "the way we've always done it" as a precedence over the experiences one aims for--I will always toss tradition out the window if it conflicts with creativity. That's just me, the rebel.

Dark_angel	21 Mar 2004
Personally, I tend to use Strength as VIII and Justice as XI, simply because the astrological associations make more sense to me on a personal level that way round. Maybe if you use the way you prefer to have them, when doing your interpretations?

ros	21 Mar 2004
I read them as Justice & Stength & sometimes I read them as 8 & 11. Little things like this drives me crazy. The why questions. You just have to let go of the questions to find your answers sometimes. I try to perfect my learning & then my readings get worse.

Dark Inquisitor	21 Mar 2004
Not being bothered about this insoluble problem must be one of the benefits of not mixing numerology and tarot .

starsongs	21 Mar 2004
Nevada, The reversal of Justice and Strength in different decks has been problematic to me mostly if I try to reason it or mold it. I feel more comfortable with Srength as 8 and Justice 11, but one of my favorite decks (Ancestral Path) reverses the two. I've found that going with whatever deck I am using (including the numerology of it) seems to work within that particular system.. Hope this makes sense...and is helpful in some way.. starsongs

Nevada	21 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Not being bothered about this insoluble problem must be one of the benefits of not mixing numerology and tarot . You can say that again! ;) Quote: Originally posted by ros You just have to let go of the questions to find your answers sometimes. Ros, I think you're right, my main problem is that I allow myself to get frustrated about this rather than just relaxing and reading the cards. :) Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha I guess my suggestion would be that, when using these "backward" decks, you might want to decide beforehand whether your reading will focus on the titles of the Majors or the numbers...but not both. Maybe you only need to do this with Strength/Justice, rather than all of the Majors? Quote: Originally posted by Dark_angel Maybe if you use the way you prefer to have them, when doing your interpretations? Yes, Lunakasha and Dark Angel, I think this is what I'll wind up doing. I'm thinking that I'll separate out the decks that I agree with on this, and only use those when I want to incorporate numerology. OR ... Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker ...just arbitrarily rearranged the Marseille decks to have Strength in the 8th position. ...follow Imagemaker's advice and just change the position of the cards I'm not entirely happy with as they are. For me it would be the opposite, Justice at the 8th position. Thank you all for your sage advice and understanding. It helps so much to get others opinions. I don't feel so frustrated now. Nevada

Nevada	21 Mar 2004
Starsong, you and I must have been typing at the same time. Quote: Originally posted by starsongs I've found that going with whatever deck I am using (including the numerology of it) seems to work within that particular system.. This is a good idea too, and if I'm in a situation where it's too late to switch decks, or I don't have the one with me that I need, I think I'd just go along with the system of the deck in hand. Brightest Blessings, ALL! You are so helpful. Nevada

firemaiden	21 Mar 2004
My first deck was Crowley's Thoth, so I always prefer to see Justice VIII and Strength XI, therefore, I just switch them to where I want them, or ignore the number all together. After all, in the beginning there were no numbers.

Nevada	21 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden My first deck was Crowley's Thoth, so I always prefer to see Justice VIII and Strength XI, therefore, I just switch them to where I want them, or ignore the number all together. Good advice! Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden After all, in the beginning there were no numbers. True, and sometimes I wish they'd never been invented, especially when the bills are due and, well, except on payday. :D Nevada

Ariana	22 Mar 2004
Well as a complete Marseilles fan for me Justice is VIII and Strenght XI. If I happen to read with another deck in which they are switched I just take into consideration the energy of the card itself, not its number.

Phoenyx*	22 Mar 2004
I've never really had a problem with this, the only thing I've had a problem with is the Temperance / Sag relationship. I don't see it.

dolphingirl	23 Mar 2004
I personally don't use numerology much and usually just go with the image/ card title. I do prefer Strength 8 & Justice 11 but that is mainly because that is what I am used to seeing. If I was using a deck with it reversed and it bothered me I would just tell myself that to bad your numbered 11 cause I am used to you being #8 so from now on I will work with you as though your the number I want. :) If you can just imagine the numbering the way you want it, go for it and do it that way . :) Good Luck Samantha

The The Great Unanswered Question (at least for me) ... thread was originally posted on 20 Mar 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.