The Hierophant: Hand Position in RW & Thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Centaur	05 Mar 2004
I was looking at the Hierophant in the Crowley Thoth, and the RW, and I noticed a little something about his hand. In the RW, his right-arm is raised and his fingers point to the sky. However, in the Thoth, his left arm is pointing downwards, and his fingers are poiting at the ground. His hand is in the same position in both. As far as I am aware the Hierophant in the RW is pointing at the Heavens. What is the Crowley interpretation of the downward pointing hand? Anyone know if this has any relevance and if this difference perhaps reveals insight into the differing beliefs held by Crowley and Waite? C

DeLani	06 Mar 2004
Hmmm...not sure about the difference between which way the hand is pointing...maybe someone else can enligten us on that. But the hand position, as far as I know, is what would be called in yoga a "mudra," or hand position that means something specific. It is the mudra the Pope and other priests use to bless. I think it is also where the peace sign originated. When I get back from Lon Milo DuQuette's talk tonight, I should have more info! :)

Centaur	06 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani But the hand position, as far as I know, is what would be called in yoga a "mudra," or hand position that means something specific. It is the mudra the Pope and other priests use to bless. I think it is also where the peace sign originated. When I get back from Lon Milo DuQuette's talk tonight, I should have more info! :) I think it is very interesting that on the RW it is pointing upwards, yet on the Thoth it is pointing downwards. I am sure that there must be some reason for this. Have fun at DuQuette's talk! Lucky you! ;) C

DeLani	07 Mar 2004
Well, I asked Lon Milo DuQuette, who's quite an expert on Crowley and the Thoth deck, and he said he didn't know. He thought maybe it might be that in Crowley's mind, the Hierophant would be more active than the RW version. But that's about it.

Imagemaker	07 Mar 2004
This is like climbing all the way to the top of the Himalayas to see the mystical Guru to ask the secret of life, and he says, "I'm working on it." Aaagh! I wanted more!

Emily	07 Mar 2004
I've had a quick look in The Book of Thoth, which I'm trying to read at the moment, and the hand position isn't mentioned in there either.

Major Tom	08 Mar 2004
Here's what I think: Add the hand position of The Pope from a Tarot of Marseille which also has the same hand position but a different arm position. Have you ever seen the Pope and the blessing he gives to a large crowd or the blessing he gives the land he visits? In each instance we're seeing the same blessing - just at different moments. :)

Centaur	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani Well, I asked Lon Milo DuQuette, who's quite an expert on Crowley and the Thoth deck, and he said he didn't know. He thought maybe it might be that in Crowley's mind, the Hierophant would be more active than the RW version. But that's about it. Thanks for asking. ;) I think that his explanation might have some grounding. In the RW, the Hierophant is pointing upwards, and thus to the realm of the spirit, or the mind. In the Thoth he is pointing downwards, to the realm of the physical, and of action. UP: Spirit, thought, mind, imagination... DOWN: Material, physical, doing, earthly, action... Hmnnn... kind of like a see-saw. ;) I want DuQuette's book too... I have heard that it is excellent. C

Centaur	23 Mar 2004
I was walking past a church today, and I happened to glance at one of the stained glass windows. In it, there was depicted an image of christ with his hand in the same position as that of the RW Hierophant. I then got to thinking that perhaps Crowley depicted this same position in the opposite direction due to his supposed dislike for christianity. Any thoughts?

Rusty Neon	23 Mar 2004
In _Handbook to the Cards_, Banzhaf gives his take. I don't have the book handy. Perhaps someone can volunteer.

Centaur	23 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon In _Handbook to the Cards_, Banzhaf gives his take. I don't have the book handy. Perhaps someone can volunteer. That would be v cool. I don't have the book either, and I would be interested in hearing what he has to say.

Emily	24 Mar 2004
Now that is interesting regarding the Hierophant's hand gesture. Quote:- Devil's horns (advocatus diaboli) The concealed part of the doctrine is expressed in the left hand of the priest, who frightens those who are unworthy with his two fingers spread to form devil's horns. In doing so, he protects them from revelations for which they are not yet strong enough. This is why we can also recognize the 'advocatus diaboli' (devil's advocate) in the Hierophant, leading astray all those who search for knowledge and perception in letters and intellectualized symbols. For when religious knowledge, myths, and symbols are intellectually analyzed according to the method of " all means nothing other than...," life evades them and they become as sterile as the temples that have been degraded into museums' - Unquote. Taken from the 'Handbook to the cards' by Banzhaf. I couldn't really shorten it without losing the interpretations so its the whole passage from the book regarding the hand positions. :) Thanks for pointing this out Rusty, its made for interesting reading.

Imagemaker	24 Mar 2004
Quote: For when religious knowledge, myths, and symbols are intellectually analyzed according to the method of " all means nothing other than...," life evades them and they become as sterile In other words, when the analyzers don't see the Spirit behind the knowledge . . . ve-ery interesting. And wow, interesting that the Hierophant scares the unready away with the devil's horns. Perhaps the Tarot has been called the "devil's pack" for that reason. Thos of us who aren't scared of that sign are here, learning Tarot's divine secrets! Cautiously ready to handle the power . . .

Centaur	24 Mar 2004
This is very interesting. According to Duquette, Crowley changed some of the names in the Major arcana to fall in line with his idea of this era as what he called the New Aeon. The New Aeon, as far as I am aware, is characterised by a more accessible spiritual-approach... each and every one of us making our own spiritual-decisions in life. I think that the New Aeon definition as given in Duquette's book, fantastically describes many New Age or Pagan belief systems. Anyway... Duquette states that a characteristic of the previous Aeon was such religions as Christianity, etc. Crowley changed some of the titles of the Major Arcana to move away from this, and to more better describe the 'New Aeon'. For instance, the Last Judgement card became the Aeon card in the Thoth, to better characterise the New Aeon. OK... so I am thinking that perhaps this downward gesture of the hands might also be related to Crowley's emphasise on this era as the New Aeon. A downward gesture is in direct opposite to the more conventional upward gesture, and would appear from Banzhaf, that this might be indicative of spirituality becoming more 'accessible', without the rigid hierarchy of doctrine and ritual being an absolute.

Dark Inquisitor	24 Mar 2004
Here is some interesting information from The Sexual Key to the Tarot by Theodor Lawrence , from 1971. Quite a surprising and dirty little book. (Sales will skyrocket now.) In the introduction he says , " Bound by vows, sworn to secrecy, none have disclosed the Sexual Key to the Tarot . Being a fragment of Secret Tradition, the Sexual Key to the Tarot has not been heretofore publicized." The deck he examines is the Rider Waite, and in the Hierophant chapter we find : "....He is seated between two pillars. His right hand is raised in benediction..." "The scepter phallic symbol is in his left hand, designating the Hierophant's negative attitude towards the penis and it's sexual function . Sex , then, is to the left , and "not right".... "The pillars are not those of the High Priestess , symbollic of the highly desirable phalli..." "While the Hierophant's right hand is raised in blessing, it is a blessing bestowed upon those away from sexuality. His hand points back at the phalli in a gesture condemnatory of sexuality and sensuality and bodily pleasure. The phallic symbols then receive the back of his blessing , the reverse of his blessing, i.e., a curse." So in this view, the Hierophant is sort of making a gesture flicking the hand back in a dismissive way ,(away from the symbolic pillars), - not a true blessing. Quite an eye opening book , with much more to say about the Hierophant . Tarotphelia

Centaur	24 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Here is some interesting information from The Sexual Key to the Tarot by Theodor Lawrence , from 1971. Quite a surprising and dirty little book. (Sales will skyrocket now.) Ha! I think you have mentioned this one to me before. It sounds very interesting! Lawrence would seem to be suggesting that the Hierophant hand position in the RW might be indicative of repressed sexuality, and a general negative attitude towards sex. Sex is equated with the physical, where the Hierophant might be seen by some as in some way disconnected from the physical and 'elevated' to the spiritual. I think that sexual pleasure and wanton sexual abandoment are often viewed as negative in terms of some spiritual belief systems, for instance Christianity. This is very interesting TP, because I have read in the past that Crowley was very much interested in sex magick, and the use of sex in magickal ritual. Perhaps we could then incorporate the downward gesture of the Thoth Hierophant as a full embrace of sexuality, and an acceptance and acknowledgement of sex as a factor to be married with spirituality? Again, this would merge with Crowley's ideas of the New Aeon, and be seen as a progression and evolving of human consciousness.

Dark Inquisitor	24 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Perhaps we could then incorporate the downward gesture of the Thoth Hierophant as a full embrace of sexuality, and an acceptance and acknowledgement of sex as a factor to be married with spirituality? I am sure Crowley was for the full embrace , and any embrace he could get his hands on- but whether it had anything to do with spirituality seemed doubtful to me after reading about his exploits. More like sex being used as a path to power and domination, as in the Devil card perhaps. Now that I have taken a look at the Thoth Heirophant , perhaps the left hand blessing represents Crowley's blessing for the left hand path , and it's downward , palm up position is something of an invitation. Tarotphelia

ros	06 Apr 2004
After Gloria post of Hand of the Devil I looked these two cards over. They have lots in common. What would be the hand sign for The Hierophant & how does it differs from The Devil to compare? Thanks for any replies.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Apr 2004
Here is a similar thread : http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=23409

WalesWoman	08 Apr 2004
I read the other thread and found it very interesting, but not quite what you were asking about. I think the Hierophant is offering a blessing, his arm upward pointing to the direction to seek enlightenment, aim high. Seek higher ground in the dealings of men, maybe. It is the same hand symbol for a benidiction or blessing, what ever name it has, while the Devil's fingers are doing the "Spock" Vulcan thing, sort of mocking the Hierophant in a way. I honestly don't know if it's some occult sign or what, or another reference for horns, i.e. the Goat in combination with the glyph for Saturn and referring to Capricorn. Maybe it's another thing of balance, knowing it's bad for you and doing it anyway or recognizing what isn't good for you and doing something about it. The thumb is about free will, so maybe it's using your will to make choices.

EightBitGnosis	09 Apr 2004
The Devil really seems to be a complete mockery of Hierophant and The Lovers. Pictures aside, if the people pictured had the practical knowledge of the Hierophant they'd take their chains right off. If they were truely The Lovers they wouldn't have the chains on in the first place.

The The Hierophant: Hand Position in RW & Thoth thread was originally posted on 05 Mar 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.