What makes tarot work?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alrisha	30 Mar 2004
What is actually at work when reading tarot? your inner self? your subconscious? what is it really? is there actually an answer to this?

ros	30 Mar 2004
I feel trusting in ourselves is what makes tarot work. An open mind and trusting our intuition gives us the knowledge to use Tarot as a tool to find answers that we cannot see.

fairyhedgehog	30 Mar 2004
I believe that it is the ability of the human mind to make up stories, and to make stories fit the observed facts, that makes tarot work. It is an act of great creativity which involves us being able to work from the subconscious mind. I believe it is completely natural and not a psychic ability.

Alrisha	31 Mar 2004
hmm i m not sure what u mean by observed facts though. say u do reading for a total stranger and how does your subconscious, higher self or whatever it is, knows the answer or comes up w/ choices? is it based on the assumption that our mind knows everything there is to know in this world?

Nevada	31 Mar 2004
I personally think it's a combination of synchronicity and intuition, with a little chaos and Divine intervention thrown in. :D Whatever it is, it works. We'll probably never know in this lifetime WHY it works, so I don't think about it that much. When I flip on a light switch, the light comes on. I've learned enough about electricity to keep from getting shocked, and to know how to plug things in and change light bulbs. I'm happy with that. If I learn that much about how Tarot works, I'll be happy to just use it. But it is a great question. :) Nevada

snuffy	31 Mar 2004
personally, i'm a sucker for fate-- perhaps we're just supposed to get certain cards in a reading for no other reason than that is what we're destined for. i do not believe in coincidence :)

BlueLotus	31 Mar 2004
I believe it is an interesting mixture of intuition, some background on the topic, but most of all some spiritual guidance. Call it your spirit guide, your angels, or higher self, but I have no doubt in my mind that it is there if you choose to really see it.

Ariana	31 Mar 2004
I agree with Feebie. Intuition + Spiritual Guidance. Does it happen to some of you that you speak differently when you read? I don't mean the voice but the way you speak etc. For example, I am the kind of person that speaks very little, only the necessary. But when reading I cannot stop talking, and I use words that I don't usually use. Isn't that Spiritual Guidance :)

Mojo	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Feebie I believe it is an interesting mixture of intuition, some background on the topic, but most of all some spiritual guidance. Call it your spirit guide, your angels, or higher self , but I have no doubt in my mind that it is there if you choose to really see it. Poppycock. How do you explain the fact that non-spiritual people often make the best readers? Quote: Originally posted by Ariana Does it happen to some of you that you speak differently when you read? I don't mean the voice but the way you speak etc. For example, I am the kind of person that speaks very little, only the necessary. But when reading I cannot stop talking, and I use words that I don't usually use. Isn't that Spiritual Guidance? No, that's called assimilation.

mercenary30	31 Mar 2004
The subject says it all........

yve	31 Mar 2004
There are things about the human mind and psyche we will NEVER totally understand. None of us have all the answers, and I think in this case it isn't cut and dried like certain people would like us to believe (not even they have all the answers!)...I think it is one of those things that we have to just accept, and not expect to find a validated explanation for...If we believe, I feel that is enough.

Ariana	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo No, that's called assimilation. Sorry, Don't get this. May be it's that English is not my native language. Could you explain what you mean? Thanks.

full deck	31 Mar 2004
Check this thread about "why Tarot works": http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3537

yve	31 Mar 2004
Ariana it's not because of your lack of grasp of English, it is because it isn't being used correctly. According to the dictionary the definitions of assimilation are: [n] in the theories of Jean Piaget: the application of a general schema to a particular instance [n] the process of assimilating new ideas into an existing cognitive structure [n] a linguistic process by which a sound becomes similar to an adjacent sound [n] the process of absorbing nutrients into the body after digestion [n] the social process of absorbing one cultural group into harmony with another [n] the state of being assimilated; people of different backgrounds come to see themselves as part of a larger national family and according to these meanings, I don't see how they apply to the way the word was used in this instance......

tmgrl2	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Nevada I personally think it's a combination of synchronicity and intuition, with a little chaos and Divine intervention thrown in. :D Whatever it is, it works. We'll probably never know in this lifetime WHY it works, so I don't think about it that much. When I flip on a light switch, the light comes on. I've learned enough about electricity to keep from getting shocked, and to know how to plug things in and change light bulbs. I'm happy with that. If I learn that much about how Tarot works, I'll be happy to just use it. But it is a great question. :) Nevada I'm with Nevada here...about the combo of various things.... I'm new and am still learning, but when I read, things just pop up depending on the question, the Querent....my energy level... I'm still reading for myself and friends and braving some online readings here at AT..... terri

Imagemaker	31 Mar 2004
I agree with you, yve, I don't see that assimilation has any connection to speaking differently when reading. Mojo?

Thea Lynx	31 Mar 2004
I would have like to have said that trusting myself makes the Tarot work, but the truth is, in my case, that the Tarot has always spoken to me, even when I doubted that it could or would. It is as if it has been constantly proving itself to me, although I am not so arrogant as to think it owes me any proof/explanation at all. I recently took a meditation class where the basic planes of existence were discussed, and the point was made that as ideas/things that are to be move through the planes, they change and become what they will be until they come into the material plan in the final form. Tarot is my conduit (if you will) between the material world and the spiritual planes. It is the manner by which I gain insight on my actions, feelings, desires, plans, as all these things are in the several planes before this one and can be effected and changed until the time when they do take form here. I know this is a rather clumsy explanation, but its the best I can do at this stage of my Tarot study. Thea Lynx

Ariana	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by yve and according to these meanings, I don't see how they apply to the way the word was used in this instance...... Neither do I......

BlueLotus	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Poppycock???. How do you explain the fact that non-spiritual people often make the best readers? I do not mean spiritual to imply religious. You probably missed the point entirly.

Mojo	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by yve Ariana it's not because of your lack of grasp of English, it is because it isn't being used correctly. Sorry yve, but it is being used correctly. If one goes to a fancy cocktail party and mimics the conversational style or posture and movements of the group in order to fit in, that's assimilation. If someone moves to a different part of the country or world and finds the local "flavor" starting to be part of their own style or local colloquiliasms finding their way into their speech, that is also assimilation. Hence, someone who is reading the tarot who uses language or phrasing that they would normally not use because it fits the style of the reading or because it is necessary in order to help interpret the meanings of the art, it is indeed assimilation. Dictionary meanings are so one-dimensional.

Mojo	31 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Feebie I do not mean spiritual to imply religious. You probably missed the point entirly. Where did I say religious? I said non-spiritual people, and that's exactly what I meant. I got your point just fine. I just chose not to agree with it. (and for the record, you did mention angels... surely a religious image if ever there was one)

jmd	31 Mar 2004
There is a difference to the question as to what makes Tarot work, and whether the answer to that needs to be accepted by individuals - I haven't read the whole thread carefully, so post here without doing full justice to everyone's post. Much earlier on, Mojo makes comments, or rather asks: 'How do you explain the fact that non-spiritual people often make the best readers?' Even if one was to accept that this may be true (which I personally do not), then it may be that they simply are not disctracted by trying to explain what makes Tarot work. It may, for example, still be because of angelic guidance, even though they would utterly reject the explanation. Accepting an explanation as to how something works is quite different to being able to do it well. Some diesel-powered vehicle drivers may be quite unaware of the way in which the engine operates - this does not alter their efficient driving. As to what makes Tarot work, it certainly is one of those ever-so difficult questions... For myself, I consider that it works as the imaginative faculty is open to the unveiling of spiritually inspired meaning-making. Of course, this implies the active engagement of spiritual forces or beings.

Star Spirit	01 Apr 2004
I ask myself this question constantly. I keep thinking I'm on some crazy roll and one day I'm just going to give a reading and it's going to be totally wrong! Nope. I agree with bits and pieces of what everyone here has said. But the fact is I'll never really know why or how it works, just that somehow, in spite of all the ifs and buts of life, science, spirituality and human intelligence, it does.

fairyhedgehog	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alrisha hmm i m not sure what u mean by observed facts though. say u do reading for a total stranger and how does your subconscious, higher self or whatever it is, knows the answer or comes up w/ choices? is it based on the assumption that our mind knows everything there is to know in this world? I believe that when a tarot reader tells a client something about that client, it is by cold reading. And successful predictions about the future rely on the selectivity of the human memory (we remember the accurate predictions, not the inaccurate ones) and on the fact that there is always more future for the predicted events to happen in. That's why I don't read for others: I feel that they would take it more seriously than I do.

Alrisha	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog I believe that when a tarot reader tells a client something about that client, it is by cold reading . And successful predictions about the future rely on the selectivity of the human memory (we remember the accurate predictions, not the inaccurate ones) and on the fact that there is always more future for the predicted events to happen in. That's why I don't read for others: I feel that they would take it more seriously than I do. i still duno what u mean by observed facts. were u trying to explain that in the above statement? if so, i failed to see the connection. and why is it that a successful prediction relies on the selectivity of the human memory? would u please elaborate because i truly failed to see your point.

Alrisha	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Accepting an explanation as to how something works is quite different to being able to do it well. Some diesel-powered vehicle drivers may be quite unaware of the way in which the engine operates - this does not alter their efficient driving. As to what makes Tarot work, it certainly is one of those ever-so difficult questions... For myself, I consider that it works as the imaginative faculty is open to the unveiling of spiritually inspired meaning-making. Of course, this implies the active engagement of spiritual forces or beings. i agree that in some situations u dun need to know the underlying mechanics to do things effectively. maybe that applies to tarot, maybe not, again no one knows the answer to that. to illustrate what's going on in my mind when i asked the question "what makes tarot works?" i will try to adopt your vehicle driver analogy...it's like u r driving a vehicle knowing that it works, and u know how to operate the vehicle, yet mysteriously the vehicle has no engine, no fuel tank, which functions with god knows what force. the vehicle driver in your case knows nothing about mechanics, yet he knows, that he can find out how and why it works if he so chooses to do so.

fairyhedgehog	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alrisha i still duno what u mean by observed facts. were u trying to explain that in the above statement? if so, i failed to see the connection. When I wrote, I was thinking of reading for myself and people I know. When it is for an unknown querent, I think it still apples though, as you can notice eg a wedding ring, clothes, manner, accent etc and draw conclusions. Did you follow the link on cold reading? It explains it more fully, how you can use what you observe and what you pick up by careful comments/questions. Quote: and why is it that a successful prediction relies on the selectivity of the human memory? would u please elaborate because i truly failed to see your point. Because people remember predictions that come true, not the ones that don't. So you can make a number of predictions and the ones that will be remembered are the ones that work - even if the ones that don't come true outnumber the accurate ones.

jmd	01 Apr 2004
Fairyhedgehog brings one of the standard - and powerful - criticisms to claims to predictions. Yet, to my mind, it only at most shows that claims to predictions are not all accurate: ie, there are a number of claims which are made which have not been accurately made nor remembered. To use another example, this time from the philosophical literature (used in epistemology - but I should mention in a quite different context and for different ends), if we were to look out into a field and see an animal which is white and fluffy-coated near a tree, and some one was to later ask us if we had seen the sheep in the field, we may indeed reply that we had. The animal we saw may in fact have been a fluffy-coated white dog, with the actual sheep hidden from view behind the tree. With regards to the example, one may inaccurately describe and present what one sees (ie, someone may describe the event as there being a sheep in the field). If there were no sheep behind the tree, then the narration or statement would not be true, despite the fact that the reason for the statement was indeed 'true' (there being a sheep-like-looking dog in the field). With predictions, it may also be that there is some sense of clear-sightedness, but that the distance somewhat blurs the image to be narrated. Perhaps part of this may very well have psychological causes, ie, the psychological dispositions and sensory limitations of the individual may partly be responsible for the inaccurate thought on the matter. As to whether my driver analogy is sufficient, I do not think that any analogy can have a one-to-one correlation with the item or process it seeks to elucidate. In this instance, however, it very well may be that, similarly to the driver being able, should s/he so wish, to open the bonnet and see the engine and learn about its operation, the reader may be able to be open to spiritual exercises and see into the workings of the divinatory act. Of course, as in Plato's cave allegory, none who remain will accept the reports, any more than any who may have been in the cab with the driver would believe what he or she found were they to have remained in the cabin with fixed ideas as to what may (or not) be in there. I do not claim to have stepped out of the cave, or our of the cabin and looked under the bonnet. Just that it may indeed be possible to do so IF the workings of the Tarot, or divination and predictions in general, arise from the workings of the spiritual domains. Denying the spiritual realm its own proper ontological status will of course result in assuming a vacuous engine bay... ...whether it be vacant of not!

Macavity	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog That's why I don't read for others: I feel that they would take it more seriously than I do. I think that's an honest and indeed brave perspective - Here? ;) But I do think there is NO objective or factual explanation as to how tarot "works" or...indeed doesn't. Certainly not one that is provable in any REAL sense. Why worry? I don't think that need negate personal belief and faith re. these issues, which are certainly "up to the individual". But I do think that, in a reciprocal sense, the skeptical viewpoint should be allowable, without being assured that DESPITE that I'm "in denial" and that the cards are really ARE being moved by angels. But that's just me... :laugh: I like to flatter myself with the notion that I simply "don't know" which is, after all, the other viewpoint? It is, for me anyway, intriguing. I do though share (with F.H.) some of the concerns that "totally accurate" (querent assessment) readings are a worry. I think too different groups (Forum, even nation-based!) develop differing collective "ethics". I suspect this relates to the overall proportion of "believers" in ones environment. I note that in highly secular(!) U.K., distance readers seem to use quite strong disclaimers re. external "guidance". Most seem to prefer a "Tarot makes you think" or "psychological" approach rather than the "in touch with the divine" view? But that suits ME just fine... :) I also sense a lot of psychic readers are really quite proud of their cold-reading ability! Do they deliberately switch this off when giving a reading? But to me, all and any such techniques are "fair enough" in appraisal - Although why (later) invoke the paranormal? Despite discalimers, I sense there remains a tendancy for so MANY querents to hang literally on every word - Some seem paralysed to act without the say so of a Taroist. :( I suppose one might console oneself with the notion that MOST people do exactly what they originally intended and despite other opinion! }) But I do share such concerns... Macavity

firemaiden	01 Apr 2004
As an official skeptic myself, but one who has begun to read for others, and who am finding the experience fun and rewarding, I will say, I think it matters very little whether what one says is an accurate "prediction" or simply good advice. The important thing is the transmission of a message, and the process of spending time with a person, looking at them, thinking about them, being with them, and daring to guess where/who they are and where they are going. The magic is in the sharing -- if I say you have a sheep in your field, and it turns out to be a sheep-dog, well, so what, we have been looking at your field together. It is a bold step to dare to guess who another person is, or where they are going -- without the smoke screen of the cards, many of us would be too scared to do that --- would you look in someone's eyes at a party... someone you don't know and say, "I see you have been cruel and hard in your life, but now you are discovering your other side" (I actually said something like this to an aging lawyer at at a party once, and I was right, HAHAHA, but I was quite tipsy and so was he. He loved it by the way) Just as fearful as we are of peering too deeply into people for fear of offending, or perhaps being made fun of, so are we also desperate for others to see us, to tell us they see us, and join us where we are. To be seen and to be understood feels like being loved. Therefore, fellow skeptics, do not worry too much about what makes tarot work. Tarot is merely a smokescreen, offering an opportunity to experience real magic, which is to deeply see and be seen by one another.

TemperanceAngel	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Therefore, fellow skeptics, do not worry too much about what makes tarot work. Tarot is merely a smokescreen, offering an opportunity to experience real magic, which is to deeply see and be seen by one another. (((((puzzled sceptic)))))

firemaiden	01 Apr 2004
Thanks Temperance Angel! (LOL, that should have read "to deeply see and be seen by one another" -- being "been" by someone else would imply an even further ...er... transmogrification :D :D....)

Imagemaker	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Tarot is merely a smokescreen, offering an opportunity to experience real magic, which is to deeply see and be seen by one another. So succinct, so clear, so insightful! To see each other clearly is the goal, the journey, and the terrified delight of Existence itself. We can only bear it in tiny flashes.

fairyhedgehog	01 Apr 2004
firemaiden, What a wonderful post! I wish we could vote for posts as well as threads! I shan't quote the most memorable lines, as others have already done that. I just wanted to reply to: Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden It is a bold step to dare to guess who another person is, or where they are going -- without the smoke screen of the cards, many of us would be too scared to do that --- Maybe part of the reason I don't use the cards for others is that I am already Quote: spending time with a person, looking at them, thinking about them, being with them, and daring to guess where/who they are and where they are going in my work as a counsellor. I'm not quite sure where reading the cards would fit into that for me. In counselling, I am not telling the client what I see so much as listening to the client and helping them see themself more clearly. But your post has made me reconsider ... so thank you :)

firemaiden	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog But your post has made me reconsider ... so thank you :) How wonderful to hear, Fairyhedgehog!

tmgrl2	01 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden To be seen and to be understood feels like being loved. Therefore, fellow skeptics, do not worry too much about what makes tarot work. Tarot is merely a smokescreen, offering an opportunity to experience real magic, which is to deeply see and be seen by one another. [/b] I agree with your whole take, firemaiden....maybe I identify because this is where I come from with readings...don't we all basically want to be seen and understood and when we feel that it does feel like love.... jmd...Plato's Cave an excellent analogy....we could go on forever, but the one who was able to step outside the cave was the only one with a whole new perspective...and, I agree, it could prove quite scarey were the others inside to be told "the truth" and still be chained to their own reality.... When I read....it's mostly for myself, here online and now for friends. and that may be all I do...but it definitely falls under the category of using the images and the intuitive flashes of "advice?" "philosophy?" that come forth....and like the physician's code: First do no harm.... terri

Umbrae	01 Apr 2004
What makes Tarot work. A wonderful question. How about this one…what makes electricity work? What is electricity? Now if you can figure out why you read tarot (not the knee jerk answer, but really – “Why do you read Tarot?”…you become closer to knowing why Tarot works. Your answer and my answer are both correct. As is Mojo’s… Completely and irrefutably… [/font]

firemaiden	02 Apr 2004
Quote: [/font] [font=1]mirrors... seeing being and being seen...mirrors[/font]

Nevada	02 Apr 2004
Smoke and mirrors. :smoker: bwua-kgofff--cough--cough! Ugh, that was a mistake. Nevada

tmgrl2	02 Apr 2004
In Poker...the river is the fifth and final community card....do you play poker, Umbrae?

tmgrl2	02 Apr 2004
and.....in times past rivers were "guides" ???

tmgrl2	02 Apr 2004
....How is it that The rivers shine and hold their mirrors up, Like excellence collecting excellence? .....................Wlllace Stevens - The Dove in the Belly

mingbop	03 Apr 2004
its a spirit whispering in your ear picks the cards---and you dont have to be spiritual to hear spirit whispers ....just means you need to be able to listen !

Mojo	03 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mingbop its a spirit whispering in your ear picks the cards---and you dont have to be spiritual to hear spirit whispers ....just means you need to be able to listen ! So now a spirit actually picks the cards, huh? Can it be trained to paint the living room or take out the trash? Then it would be truly useful.

MeeWah	03 Apr 2004
One need not align with any particular belief, spiritual or otherwise, to be able to read with a keen eye & successfully convey a message. Perhaps "the how" does not matter as much as the fact that despite the diverse views of Tarot & the diverse approaches to Tarot, it still works. That seems to speak loudly by itself.

tmgrl2	03 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah One need not align with any particular belief, spiritual or otherwise, to be able to read with a keen eye & successfully convey a message. Perhaps "the how" does not matter as much as the fact that despite the diverse views of Tarot & the diverse approaches to Tarot, it still works. That seems to speak loudly by itself. Yes! Isn't that wonderful! terri

Major Tom	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo So now a spirit actually picks the cards, huh? Can it be trained to paint the living room or take out the trash? Then it would be truly useful. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Just a reminder that there is room for everybody here. I think those that believe in spirit would find that spirit inhabited their bodies to paint the living room or take out the trash. ;) Spirit can be incredibly useful.

Diana	04 Apr 2004
I don't understand how Tarot can be a smoke screen, as firemaiden says. It doesn't make sense to me at all. (Smoke screen is written in two words, by the way.) But before I start going into why I believe it is most definitely NOT a smoke screen, I would like her, if she wants to, to define her definition of "smoke screen". So as to avoid any misunderstandings and talking at cross-purposes, which is often the case when one uses a word (i.e. Fundamental... or in this case perhaps Smoke Screen). The definition of "smoke screen" I use is: "something designed to obscure, confuse, or mislead." (Webster's) (The military usage of the word is perhaps not something we need to concern ourselves with here.)

firemaiden	04 Apr 2004
Okay, my dear Diana... I was not using the dictionary definition of smokescreen... (or, as it is also spelled, "smoke screen") I meant it more as a metaphor...perhaps the word was poorly chosen -- I imagine a screen of smoke like a veil -- or mask -- Perhaps it is a bit like the shaman's mask -- like a kind of magic invisibility cloak which allows personal ego to disappear... and allows either spirit -- or a deeper part of the reader's mind or the collective unconscious to issue forth, unfettered by our specific inhibitions. Or... okay, how's this... a veil, which unleashes the voice behind the veil

Major Tom	04 Apr 2004
Maybe tarot works with smoke and mirrors. :laugh: I think, for me, the metaphor of the mirror works the best. Those that believe in spirit will see spirit in the mirror. Those that do not believe will see themselves, but if as I believe, we are spiritual beings having a physical experience, it amounts to the same thing anyway. Tarot works because it reveals ourselves and others to us precisely as if we held up a mirror. You can blow smoke too, if you want to. :laugh: You start the journey as the Conjuror. ;)

jmd	04 Apr 2004
Mojo and I seem to share much in common with regards to this thread, for we are each answering in a rather strong fashion, and in ways which, as a consequence, has the undoubted effect of making some feel either disregarded or undervalued. There is a sense in which each of us on Aeclectic (and elsewhere) may each agree or not as to whether Tarot actually works. Of course, the question heading this thread makes the assumption that Tarot in fact does work - whether because of the reader or not is in the first instance not important: it is part of the various ways of answering which would bring this out. The second aspect is that if Tarot does indeed work, then whether the 'correct' explanation is accepted by the person doing the readings may very well be irrelevant: ie, as I mentioned before, a person may be able to accurately work the Tarot, despite having a totally incorrect view as to how it works. But of course, the question here is not whether it may be used by those with various views - of course it can - but, as I perhaps mistakenly took it, a discussion as to what makes it work. mingbop brings an element which is generally also mentioned by numerous others in a variety of ways: the inspired listening of the reader. To those with a physicalist view of the world, this must sound like plain hogwash - as seemingly disparagingly, or perhaps mocked, by Mojo's post. Yet even the physicalist may need to listen to the suggestion. Certainly, the explanation they would give for the 'small voice' would be vastly different to the explanation provided by, for example, a spiritualist. Still, there may be more in common than meets the eye. Perhaps, to combine various views in ways we may come to generally agree on, it may be that Tarot is explained to work by a combination of various elements: firstly, there is an acceptance by the person that a narration may emerge by looking at the card's imagery; secondly, there is normally a developing assimilation into the accepted norms of the tarot reading community or communities; thirdly, there is a sense in which, for many, a deep trust develops as to what to say and how to begin to say it; and fourthly, these things may happen irrespective as to the ontological convictions of the individual (s) concerned. Of course, one may (rightly) point out that in the above, the main question of the thread has not been answered... but at least it provides, possibly, further points from which to travel and travail...

Diana	04 Apr 2004
What makes Tarot work? Possibly a hologramic phenomenon. http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

mingbop	04 Apr 2004
i dont take offence and dont get hot and bothered because...theres a bit of mystery about the tarot--and this is what i like about it! nobody knows how it works, the laws of phsyics, chemistry, gravity, or any othe -y just dont apply to tarot ! I have read for a lot of years and ears--but I have no idea how it works, and the spirit whispers felt right to me..the same wee whispers that tell you to take the phone upstairs cos you goin get a call in the night;not to go in the car that particular day cos its goin crash; etc etc .and I dont even look at the cards--so i envy those who read through imagery.We all different and all lucky that we share this passion.

tmgrl2	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana What makes Tarot work? Possibly a hologramic phenomenon. http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html Diana ...ty for this amazing link!! I saved, printed out most of it with internal links to read all of it later...I was just beginning to do a search on Remote Viewing since years ago when I was into studying psychic phenomena (and I had Charles Tart's first book on Altered States of Consciousness...as well as a very good book on Lucid Dreaming which I believe was Keith Harary's early work on topic) I was in contact with Keith Harary...re my participation in some studies he was doing with remote viewing...since I had been trying my abilities with it.... for whatever reason, we wrote back and forth to each other and he was, if I remember in California and I was in NY and the study required time/travel I couldn't put in...so I just let it go....anyhow, I see now he has a book out on higher consciousness and one on Lucid Dreaming with Pamela Weintraub... Where this is all leading....I was already delving into psychic phenomena in the 1970's shortly after which I began working with color ...prior to that handwritings...I "dropped" my inner work and use of my "psychic" self because of life's intrusions...and now, here, with your links I feel like I am "back"....Well worth saving and reading as a link for anyone interested in these areas as they relate to How Tarot Works.... Just because we don't "see" something doesn't mean it's not there, and just because we can't "explain" a phenomenon doesn't mean it isn't at work.... terri

tmgrl2	04 Apr 2004
To continue my previous thread...I found an article on the web...by Keith Harary...says unauthorized dowload...but from what I remember of him...this is his philosophy and he is a "researcher" in psychic phenomena. I think he wouldn't mind that this article is "out there" ...after all, he has new materials out for publication and it won't hurt him...but he has a statement partway down...that pretty much says what I said in closing my last post: members.tripod.com/~zayexi/article.html ty terri

Macavity	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana What makes Tarot work? Possibly a hologramic phenomenon. http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html Fine and indeed rather interesting! BUT unfortunately this starts (as ever?) with my particular bete noire of inferring that quantum entanglement(?) (Einstein's "spooky affect" AGAIN!) by mere dint of being somewhat new-ish to modern physics and obviously "unexplained" (it is NOT!!) opens some flood-gates to any author "philosophy" that might be... hanging around. I quote the page itself: "Anything is possible, from bending spoons with the power of the mind to the phantasmagoric events..." Obviously a great theory then? }) Y'know, I'M even willing to have an open mind that the guy(s) who run(s) this site CAN actually control the world weather! Can start in the U.K. please? But if they expect me to believe THIS stuff, then they might at least know who wrote THE **** ORIGINAL ARTICLE!!! "Author unknown (attributed to Michael Talbot apparently)" Ye Gods!! Fwiw, the author does cite a lot of interesting references (do the original authors know this?). These may indeed be worth researching, but this is mostly an anti-scientific and anti-intellectual crusade - or tirade? Truly I cannot see how the cause of Tarot to gain ANY acceptance by the mainstream or the general public is assisted by this stuff. :( Y'know it wouldn't be so bad if these folks declared their experience of these matters. Which scientists did they know? Have they even met one? What are their qualification to talk on these subjects? Simply PLEASE think about this stuff critically, people? Macavity (who worked alongside a couple of normal-ish Nobel Lauereates in his time...) P.S: The above rant is tongue in cheek and NOT personal! But I truly find it HARD to remain a Taroist with regular preaching against my lifetime love and onetime profession in Science. And most especially where facts are selectively cherry-picked and taken out of context to support this guff. It feel would be dishonest of ME not to protest! Not content with that, these people are always on the offensive. Scientists (most anyway) are full-time professionals with demanding jobs. We do NOT spend time railing against... believers in the paranormal. Except perhaps now - But Hey, it's Sunday... :laugh:

Diana	04 Apr 2004
Ah Macavity! I should have perhaps searched longer for a more valuable web-site. I was just trying to explain what I was trying to say by Hologramic Phenomenon. And I decided to go and look for a web-site and that's the first one that I found. :) It was just to illustrate how Tarot could work. And a hologramic phemonenon makes a lot of sense to me. There has to be a reason. It's not "spirits" or "angels" whispering in our ears. That sounds pretty silly to me.

Umbrae	04 Apr 2004
String Theory?

Macavity	04 Apr 2004
Heheh. Diana - as ever a good sport? Hopefully! :D Actually the basis does sound rather interesting. But there are rather a lot of genuinely interesting things around which are perhaps over-burdened in this way?. Even a quantum mechanical explanation of the soul was one that quite grabbed ME! It might explain how it can fall out and go AWOL occasionally? }) But I dunno! Anyway Back to the LAB... Or as you too may have observed (with real scientists) usually the coffee lounge... or perhaps an extended lunch... :laugh: Macavity P.S. The latter is partially true... ;)

Macavity	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae String Theory? I have heared of the notion of colliding "branes" but that might just be down to spelling... ;)

tmgrl2	04 Apr 2004
Macavity...did you check out Keith Harary's statement in the link following Diana's....It's interesting because he does come from years of research in psychic phenomena...I like the way he links science and makes his own statement about not wanting to be called a "psychic" just because his research is in that area....anyhow, I knew him via phone and letter many years ago...and it was interesting to read this statement supposedly from Omni.... I don't know what I really "believe" about why Tarot works...or what the underlying principles are (especially those we cannot see and/or understand.......yet) ...but I can't seem to escape from my own bent toward using my intuition and seeing the results when I do...somehow...that's what "works" for me....and back to Umbrae's toothpicks...maybe we can even skip them... But I DO believe that the tools one of intuition uses do carry some external import to the Querent.....some more than others...some Querents really are coming to make sure they told you NOTHING about themselves to see if what you say will be something VERY SPECIFIC that you COULDN'T POSSIBLY have known unless you were "real." We run into that all the time....we've all said that the process of Tarot reading is quite complex as soon as you have a reader with his/her "baggage" and "tools" and and Querent with another set of beliefs, expectations, questions....Then, within the community we have seekers who are quite versed in history and iconology and others who lean more toward using imagery without much research. Doesn't, in my book, make any one reader more "valid" than another's. Once anything becomes this complex, the desire to look for simple answers to complex questions becomes almost moot.... But, man/woman will continue to search for "truth" and answers...that seems to be who we are as humans....I think we would all admit, that even here, on a written/verbal, non-oral forum, the words alone in the postings carry emotions...and underlying messages...We can't use body language, tone of voice, inflection, emphasis/stress on syllables and words in the same fashion that we can when we speak face-to-face. That's what makes this all so interesting...Punctuation does its bit, but a small part compared to the visual/oral of hearing and seeing a person as we communicate..... terri

tmgrl2	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae String Theory? We have to love you, Umbrae!! Are you sending us off now to read The Elegant Universe? or just getting us sidetracked from being too serious...?? both, knowing you... t2

Macavity	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 Macavity...did you check out Keith Harary's statement in the link following Diana's.... terri I did finally. :) I think anyone seeking the middle ground must be considered helpful in this? On: "In either case, you are excluding a variety of inner experiences from your concept of normal humanity. That denial diminishes your sense of your own potential." Doubtless! I might object to the inference of abnormality though? ;) But: "It fuels the sales of cult memberships, tabloid newspapers, deceptive 900-line services, and questionable tests of psychic powers to the public." So the skeptics are still at fault? We can't win! But I'm O.K. with much of what he says? I do think sometimes folk do LIKE to live under a degree of "self-induced siege" in these matters. Many might indeed live under those conditions in reality? I guess I am fortunate that in many things I can NOW please myself? I have equally little understanding though of "professional debunkers" from among the scientific community. Wasn't there a triumvirate: Azimov? Sagan? who set out to debunk astrology? Did they ever suceed? As an aside I would remark that I am NOT a deep thinker re. such things. I have my instincts for misuse of "science" in explaining things. So much seems to center around the one small idea: "Science doesn't fully explain... ergo WE CAN"? But much of the subject matter in now a long time ago for me! Nevertheless, on incorporation of science into Tarot, I suspect generally one has to be really "on the ball" re. quantum theory etc. before quoting it. I am NOT! The internet or barroom is a better source! LOL. But I think it's also true of many scientists? One could doubtless produce *pages* of "equations", but the biggest hurdle is page ONE of most quantum mechanical texts? What does it REALLY mean? Often the hardest concepts, can conveniently be ignored from then on, perhaps never to be revisited... :D To the original question, I have no answer! Nor indeed much of a response to the obvious assumption implied? I think I am increasingly convince of reality being a rather subjective concept for all of us? But I would go as far as to say that IF tarot "isn't true" for any individual then that *IS* their experience and is their truth. They aren't e.g. "in denial" of some (now) alternative(?) Tarot reality. To insist on that seems as bad as rampant skeptic's insistance on there being only one common objective reality? }) Who knows... Macavity

TemperanceAngel	04 Apr 2004
I just read this thread backwards, try it, it reads better ;) XTAX

mj07	04 Apr 2004
I'm going to second the vote for String Theory! :D

Umbrae	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 [bare you sending us off now to read the elegant universe?[/b] String Theory is ‘supposed’ to tie unified field theory and quantum theory; it would be the only reason for separated particles to react to each other (etc. – perhaps some physics major can elaborate). Some folks feel that it’s been proven. Some folks feel it’s a hoax. Properly applied, it may explain why divination works, which is the real question (unless you can prove that Tarot is a superior system to say...toothpicks).

tmgrl2	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae String Theory is ‘supposed’ to tie unified field theory and quantum theory; it would be the only reason for separated particles to react to each other (etc. – perhaps some physics major can elaborate). Some folks feel that it’s been proven. Some folks feel it’s a hoax. Properly applied, it may explain why divination works, which is the real question (unless you can prove that Tarot is a superior system to say...toothpicks). That's about how much I have read about it....I guess that once again I feel that something is "out there" that can explain why divination works...and again say that because we can't YET explain it, doesn't mean there isn't something measurable. explainable and/or organized at work....I'm with you, Umbrae... Some years back there was a scathing article in our New York Newspaper Magazine section about a community in NY where many psychics resided and worked....It was an embarrassment the way they treated the idea that psychic abilities could be "real." It was demeaning to the people in the article...Anyhow, I got my dander up and wrote a very long letter to the editor...don't have it handy...but basically took us back in time and had the reader try to "imagine" some of the phenomena we take for granted today...flying machines, computers, microchips that are "grown".....just because a Jules Verne believed the impossible could one day be real, didn't make him a crazed individual...guess it was OK since he was writing "fantasy" and "science fiction." Da Vinci, also was ahead of his time...the list is endless They printed my letter with no edits...it took up about a half page of the following Sunday's magazine section.....At least I had my say... For those who are interested....this website will give one something to chew on...... http://superstringtheory.com/ terri

The What makes tarot work? thread was originally posted on 30 Mar 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.