Do you know the meaning of the two finger gesture?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

hyatt	25 Apr 2004
Hello Guys- I have used the search function and just can't seem to find what I am looking for.... I am wondering about hand/finger gestures. In a couple of cards the figures are holding up two fingers. For example the hierophant and the ten of swords in the Rider deck. Does any one know the meaning?

Centaur	25 Apr 2004
Many people have given me the two finger gesture in the past. Muhahaha. Sorry...

Osher	25 Apr 2004
The idea of sticking up two fingers is English from Medaevil times. The English archers were the best in the known world, and highly feared by the French. In fact, despite numericaly smaller armies the power of the English archers allowed the English to defeat the French time after time. The French therefore would take their revenge (and stop the archers) by chopping off the index (or fore) and middle fingers of the right hand of captured English archers. Before a battle, to show the French that they were still intact, and able to assault the French, the English archers would stick up these two fingers at the French armies. In later times it became a symbol of insult to stick up two fingers at your enemy. The hand would have the outside towards the enemy, the inside facing you. Winston Churchill reversed this sign, and used it as a 'V for Victory' symbol during WWII. Since then it has become more widely adopted. However the two finger gesture, as an insult (from meaning they that were whole, and able to attack) is still uniquely English. As for the relevance to Tarot? I don't know, sorry!

Scorpion	25 Apr 2004
Hi Hyatt! I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will come along shortly and clear this up once and for all, but I've got a feeling that in the case of the Hierophant it's the traditional "papal blessing" and goes something along the lines of "as above, so below" or "some things are revealed, others hidden" - sorry, can't quite remember which one it is off the top of my head! As for the 10 Swords, I can't say I'd ever noticed this before but maybe it's pretty much the same - perhaps the "hidden" message again, indicating that there's more to the situation than meets the eye? To be honest, I'd just assumed it was a hand clawed in agony. Hope this helps! Edited to add: Thanks for that Happiness - yes, I'd heard about the English archers insulting the French, too!

Moonbow*	25 Apr 2004
Well I didn't know about the English Archers' two fingers - that's really interesting - what a mind of information you are Happiness. It seems the French had a habbit of cutting off body parts - I wonder what they do to paedophiles! The only two fingured gesture I know about is the one Centaur speaks off ;) infact I may have used it a few times myself :) M*

fairyhedgehog	25 Apr 2004
What about the gesture where the hand is held up palm outwards with the fingers separated into two and two? Accompanied by the phrase "Nanu, Nanu"? Oh, that was Mork and Mindy, wasn't it? Probably not relevant then.

Scorpion	25 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog What about the gesture where the hand is held up palm outwards with the fingers separated into two and two? Well, that's the RWS Devil, of course, Fairyhedgehog, but as the cards don't come with audio, we'll have to speculate on the "Nanu, Nanu"!

lark	25 Apr 2004
You guys are so naughty! }) hyatt this is what The Tarot by Alan Oken says~ The gesture of the right hand tells us that the power of the spiritual triad (displayed on the staff and the front of his gown with three crosses) comes from above. The three can be the Christian Trinity~ Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or aspects of the human personality, physical, emotional, and mental. But that this power comes from outside of ourself from a place of spirit. The little square on the bottom of his gown under the three crosses stands for earthly manifestation. So the Heriophant is endowed with the power (symbolized by the staff) to bring the hidden message of Spirit into our practical life on Earth. So his right hand two finger gesture is a symbol of where to look for that power.

Diana	25 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness Winston Churchill reversed this sign, and used it as a 'V for Victory' symbol during WWII. Nope. Winston Churchill only popularised this sign. It originated in Belgium before the war. Some people even think that Crowley himself had told Churchill to reverse it to ward off evil! :D A lot of people are under the strange impression that Crowley was one of Churchill's advisers. I don't know how many times I have heard this odd urban legend. The two fingered sign by the Pope/Hierophant has nothing to do with the Victory sign!!! It is indeed a papal blessing, as Scorpion pointed out. I was certain we had discussed this once in the Historical forum, but I can't find the post.

Osher	25 Apr 2004
DOH! Right, you know Spock, from Star Trek (yes, yes, Hap, we know, get on with it!). OK, that sign he uses (yes, we know), it originates from the Temple in Jerusalem (ah, there is a Jewish connection), it was a priestly sign. Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree, but it could be a connection... (Moonbow*, thanks! I do have nickname associated with what you said, care to guess?)

miss_apples	25 Apr 2004
Which fingers is it? I know that the fore finger and the middle finger are the asthame fingers that us pagans use to draw the protective circle.

Savoyali	27 Apr 2004
I remember reading somewhere that this gesture was one of those instances of the Christian church appropriating an originally Pagan sign of Druidic origin. Might have been in the Patterson book with the Davis Celtic Tarot, I'll check and then edit this post. EDITED TO ADD: It was that book, but it doesn't say any more about it than that it's a Druidic blessing appropriated by Christians. For some reason that gesture always causes an almost visceral reaction in me, and not a positive one, either. And also I tend to see it as seperate from V-signs, victorious or insulting, but apparently that's just me. This page has some comments on it, although they apparently don't know about the Belgians inventing the V-sign, either. Then again, any text that incorporates the term 'Cosmic Giggle Factor' can't be all wonrg :P

Mojo	27 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness The idea of sticking up two fingers is English from Medaevil times. The English archers were the best in the known world, and highly feared by the French. In fact, despite numericaly smaller armies the power of the English archers allowed the English to defeat the French time after time. The French therefore would take their revenge (and stop the archers) by chopping off the index (or fore) and middle fingers of the right hand of captured English archers. And to complete the legend, since English longbows were made of wood from the Yew tree, the archer's craft was referred to as "plucking the yew" and hence the 2-fingered gesture was interpreted as saying "pluck yew" In the 20th century, it was abbreviated even further to just one finger, but the meaning stayed pretty close to the original.

crystal cove	27 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo And to complete the legend, since English longbows were made of wood from the Yew tree, the archer's craft was referred to as "plucking the yew" and hence the 2-fingered gesture was interpreted as saying "pluck yew" In the 20th century, it was abbreviated even further to just one finger, but the meaning stayed pretty close to the original. This is what I get for reading the boards in the morning. ;) I have a full day ahead and I sit here laughing uncontrollably with tears streaming down my face. Thanks for the laugh! :D

The Do you know the meaning of the two finger gesture? thread was originally posted on 25 Apr 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.