RWS minors based on Marseille pips? - wands cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

northsea	08 Apr 2004
I noticed that for the Wands suit, TdM with upright florals are given more positive RWS DMs, TdM Wands with central wands are more negative, except the 3 of Wands. For the Swords suit, TdM pips with central florals are more positive RWS DMs, central swords are given more negative RWS DMs, except 8 of Swords. Did Waite/Smith pay attention to TdM pips while creating the RWS, or is this a coincidence due to both using something like numerology?

Shalott	12 Apr 2004
I hope somebody can actually answer this one, I have only speculation to offer: I've always thought that the RWS pips were a new and/or different system. I know nothing about the Scola Busca deck, which was truly the first to illustrate pips, whether the RWS follows that deck at all or if it's almost purely Waite and his Golden Dawn buddies who came up with this system. Considering the whole Justice/Strength switch, the RWS 8 pips would then automatically be different in relation to the majors. Hm!

Lee	20 Apr 2004
The RWS minor meanings are based on the system developed by the Order of the Golden Dawn, along with fortune-telling meanings for playing cards from that time. The Golden Dawn system itself was based on a combination of Qabala, astrology, and fortune-telling meanings, among other things. The Marseille deck has pips which are unillustrated, that is to say they only have the specified number of pip symbols along with decorative flowers, leaves and stems. They were probably designed with no particular divinatory meanings in mind. For the approximately two centuries that people have been using them for divination, different people and groups have assigned different meanings to them, but there is no divinatory scheme which is any more "true" than any other, and thus anyone is free to interpret them as they wish. Modern Marseille decks come with LWBs with meanings, but these are only the meanings of that particular author and shouldn't be regarded as authoritative. Likewise, at times in this forum some members who feel strongly that their way is the "right" way will write in an authoritative manner, but the choice lies with the reader to use meanings from any source or to make up one's own meanings. So, one can't really compare RWS minors, which were designed with particular meanings in mind, with Marseille minors, which weren't. -- Lee

Diana	20 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tommy I noticed that for the Wands suit, TdM with upright florals are given more positive RWS DMs, TdM Wands with central wands are more negative, except the 3 of Wands. For the Swords suit, TdM pips with central florals are more positive RWS DMs, central swords are given more negative RWS DMs, except 8 of Swords. Did Waite/Smith pay attention to TdM pips while creating the RWS, or is this a coincidence due to both using something like numerology? Tommy: Where did you find these divinatory meanings for the Marseilles? Were they in a little white book that accompanied a deck? If so, which deck was this?

northsea	20 Apr 2004
Diana, I was comparing the DMs of the RWS to the TdM pips' art. I didn't consider TdM DMs, but it seems like Waite or PCS were influenced by the TdM pips.

Shalott	26 Apr 2004
Diana - I have actually a fairly decent LWB as far as LWBs go for the Marseilles published by USGames/Carta Mundi. Can't stand the deck, the colors are blinding! But I scavanged the LWB and have been slowly going through it. It does discuss divinatory meanings for the pips.

Diana	26 Apr 2004
Tommy: Referring to a post further up which says that Marseille minors were not designed with particular meanings in mind, I do want to point out that there are a large number of Tarot researchers, historians and scholars who believe that the Marseille minors were very much designed with specific meanings and purposes in mind. What does Divinatory mean... it stems from the word "divine"..... So we have the meaning of "to divine" which is to "predict fortunes (past, present or future)", and the other is to "get in touch with the divine". The two do meet at some point. I suspect the creators of the original Tarot cards did not have fortune telling in mind, but most definitely had the Divine in mind. And of course, when one is tapping into the Divine.... one cannot help but tap into the past, present and future as well. As to your question whether "Waite/Smith paid attention to TdM pips while creating the RWS, or is this a coincidence due to both using something like numerology?", well from having studied both systems, I would say that Waite probably didn't have a clue as to what the TdM minor arcana were all about. (Don't forget... "arcanum" means "secret, mystery".) He probably thought they were designed for some kind of poker game or something. Which is one of the reasons he decided to put pictures on his deck, I suppose. He probably couldn't figure out what all those batons, swords, cups and round things were doing on the cards. So I would go for the "coincidence".

firemaiden	19 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tommy I noticed that for the Wands suit, TdM with upright florals are given more positive RWS DMs, TdM Wands with central wands are more negative, except the 3 of Wands. For the Swords suit, TdM pips with central florals are more positive RWS DMs, central swords are given more negative RWS DMs, except 8 of Swords. Did Waite/Smith pay attention to TdM pips while creating the RWS, or is this a coincidence due to both using something like numerology? Tommy are you still around? This is an interesting question that would be fun to explore, regardless of how the RWS suit meanings came to be. In the suit of wands, which cards have "upright florals", I wonder. *Firemaiden takes out the suit of wands from the Camoin deck* AHA, look at that! The Two, the Six and the Eight, sport upright flowers, whereas the Three, Five, Seven, and Ten are barren, except for leaves. This was an interesting observation that got lost in the fray. Do the Two, the Six and the Eight have positive meanings in RWS? If you were deriving meanings from scratch from the Tarot de Marseille cards would you give them a more positive interp than the barren ones? What about the fact that on the eight and six the flowers are cut?

Shalott	21 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden AHA, look at that! The Two, the Six and the Eight, sport upright flowers, whereas the Three, Five, Seven, and Ten are barren, except for leaves. This was an interesting observation that got lost in the fray. Do the Two, the Six and the Eight have positive meanings in RWS? If you were deriving meanings from scratch from the Tarot de Marseille cards would you give them a more positive interp than the barren ones? Hmmm I'm getting more and more interested in these comparative studies, ever since, would you believe Diana, offered her takes on Marseille's 2 of cups vs 2 of swords, and her ideas BOTH sounded RWS-esque to me! Either I'm nuts or these decks ARE more similar than we've been thinking! These are tangential, but extremely interesting: Diana: Quote: When I look at the two of Swords, I see first that very rich flower in the middle with the six leaves. It's the first thing that my eyes notice. It is a flower that has reached its maturity - it can't open anymore. So then I see the 2 Swords, remind myself that this is a 2, so there is necessarily duality involved here, and that growth is no more possible if people remain stuck in their positions and refuse to progress and listen to other people (for me Swords are the Air element). It's like saying "Ok, I've come this far. And no further". It's a stubborn kind of card. So I am reminded that I need to make an effort to see other people's points of views, and to try and see things from their point of view. It is not a very easy card. And the trouble is, at first glance, when you see that flower, you think - hey, this looks like a great card! But that's very deceptive. Diana again: Quote: If we take the Cups to be the water element, we can see that the number two loves water. The twos here have such a solid base from which to work on. See the large red band on the bottom? That's where the energy is stored from the Ace. Red is the colour of activity, of vigour. Of blood - where all our energy is stored. (All the cups contain red liquid). Passion even. Passion can be dangerous too, if not well tamed. (Red is a masculine colour, but twos are more of a feminine nature - hint at the duality of the number 2). And here the energy is stored at the bottom of the card which provides great stability to the Two Cups. Back to the subject at hand! My take on these RWS wands cards are that the 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8 of wands are all positive, the 2 and 3 both depict a guy in different stages of "waiting for his ship to come in," the four is a celbration, 6 is a guy coming home to glory, possibly a parade in his honor, and 8 shows 8 wands sailing easily through the air. http://www.bluecatsden.com/rwwands.html If these meanings do coincide with Marseille's, Waite may have had a clue after all! LOL (Or we can still give credit to Pixie :D) Edited to say I've changed my opinion on these quite a bit and now see the major differences between the RWS amd Marseille DMs - that , yes, most of the RWS do reflect suit + number meanings, BUT they reflect only one aspect...I just wanted to edit this post for anyone who may uncover it and lock me into the prior opnion!

The RWS minors based on Marseille pips? - wands cards thread was originally posted on 08 Apr 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.