Are the suits inherently associated with the Element or the Tool?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 May 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Neiru	26 May 2004
I know there is debate over which Tool (wand, sword, cup, pentacle) goes with which Element (air, fire, water, earth), but are entire suits inhernetly designed to reflect the qualities of a particular Element or the qualities of a particular Tool? Is the suit of Swords inherently associated with Swords, or is it more properly called the suit of Fire (or Air, or whatever you preffer)? I guess there is also a bit of debate over the technical details of what each element's qualities are, but... Oh dear, if I keep writing like this I'll tie my brain in knots. I guess this is a kind of "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" question: what came first, the Element association or the Tool association? Obviously people have found ways to make the Swords suit work coherently with a Fire association instead of Air, and the Wands suit work coherently with an Air association instead of Fire, and vice versa... but what was the original design? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to make my own Tarot, and the association will be Swords-Fire/Wands-Air. However, I'm not sure if it'd make more sense to simply replace the wands with swords and the swords with wands in the existing suites (basic example: keep the meaning of "5 of Wands" but draw them fighting with swords instead of staves and rename it "5 of Swords"), or to just switch the association of the elements between existing suits. I notice a majority of decks I've seen use the Swords-Air/Wands-Fire association, and all the decks I've seen that have Swords-Fire/Wands-Air association don't touch the meanings or imagery and just switch element associations between suits. Perhaps it is that simple, but I still wonder whether it is the most "correct" way to do it. Sorry in advance for any confusion caused by this mess.... ^^;;

Thirteen	26 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Neiru what came first, the Element association or the Tool association? The tools are SYMBOLS. And they are used because they are symbols. We don't pull the 5 of Swords and say to our querent, "You're going to be in a sword fight tomorrow." Then again, back when the Tarot was first created, it was entirely possible that the querent might get into a real swordfight. Or use a staff (wand/cudgel), or drink from a chalice or toss out round coins rather than paper money to pay for something. You know, you might want to look at the Po-Mo (Post-Modern) tarot to help you here. Instead of Swords they have guns, televisions for wands, Paper money for Pentacles and Coca-cola bottles for Cups. But you get the idea. Things WE use, and how we turn them into symbols. Quote: but what was the original design? That depends on who you believed deisgned the Tarot. When it was designed? We know what the earliest deck was, but we don't know if its the original or the intent of the original designer. The main reason Swords are usually Air and Wands usually fire is because of the influence of the Golden Dawn, of which Edward Waite (Rider-Waite deck) was a member. But the GD were not the ones who originated the tarot. They just excersized a powerful influence over how it is read today. The point is, when we read a tarot card, we don't usually see our querent holding a sword and stabbing someone, nor do we see that sword becoming a flame or turning to air. What we see is what that sword represents to us--the person's temper/passion (fire) or the person's cutting wit/tongue (air). We may look at the cups and see an alcholic, but we don't often look at the 5 of cups and say, "you're going to knock over your drink." Most of the time, we look at 5 of cups and say, "You've spilled out a lot of emotion over this." So--generally speaking, MEANING, what the tool symbolizes, comes first (emotion). The element second (water--things that flow). The literal meaning of the tool (a cup) comes third. Why no use that as your guide in helping you create your deck?

Luminessence	04 Jun 2004
I think the element is generally more important than the tool. So if you were to associate Swords with Fire and Wands with Air, I would say you should give the 5 of Swords the meaning that the 5 of Wands would normally have, and so on. But that's just my opinion.

Ravenswing	04 Jun 2004
Neiru-- In the Golden Dawn system (from which RWS and Thoth spring forth), each of the small cards is given an astrological corrospondence. If you have the Thoth deck, you'll see this on the cards-- they have a glyph for the planet and sign that the card is associated with. It's my feeling that, if you exchange sword for wand elementally, then this should be reflected in the astrological corrospondence. But remember also the nature of sword and wand. Wand energy is internal and outward directed. Sword energy is energy you pull in to use. So, as I see it, a simple switching of the cards (like your example of replacing wands with swords on the 5) is not quite enough. I think you have the start here of what might have previously been overlooked in the process of elemental switching. I believe that the essensial meaning of the wands and swords would be switched (eg-- the two of swords for the two of wands and vice versa) but the manner in which the essense takes form should reflect the different tool. After all, you don't use a wand when a sword is called for. First I would contemplate the Aces. How is the Ace of Sword the Root of the Power of Fire?? How is the Ace of Wands the Root of the Power of Air?? Best of luck with your project. fly well Raven

The Are the suits inherently associated with the Element or the Tool? thread was originally posted on 26 May 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.