Influences on RWS pip depictions - how we got here from there... 8 of swords

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 May 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	16 May 2004
In an old thread about 8 of swords - comparisons - I compared a few RWS-clone variations of the blindfolded gal stuck in the mud surrounded by eight swords. In this thread, Diana expressed some curiosity about why the artist had chosen to portray the 8 of swords in this way, and wondered if the meanings had been dictated to her. Jmd answered : Quote: Originally posted by jmd I have yet to be convinced that Pamela Colman-Smith was given specific directions for the pips, other than having a look at the Sola-Busca plates at the time in the British Museum, Golden Dawn materials, and comments by Papus and maybe a few others. It seems she really tried to somehow incorporate various strands, and she was probably given far greater free reign and creative indulgence in the pips than we may presume. The 'tradition' had, given we're considering this card, eight swords. As long as these were included, and the images weren't wild, I suspect they would have been acceptable to Waite. Still, the questions asked are important - and would certainly like to read other views and possibilities. I would like to propose that we explore the question for a number of cards. Perhaps we could re-open a dialogue on all the RWS pips -- It would be interesting to see which strands might Smith (or indeed Waite) have picked up on, to develop the meanings they did. (Of course, the intellectual rigour of this excercise will be automatically suspect, because we only have hindsight, yet I think it can be interesting anyway!) So... to begin with, pull out the Marseille Eight of Swords, and tell me, what if anything might have given rise to the typical RWS illustration? How did we get here from there?

firemaiden	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden So... to begin with, pull out the Marseille Eight of Swords, and tell me, what if anything might have given rise to the typical RWS illustration? How did we get here from there? For those poor lost souls who have not yet invested in a Marseille deck, here attached is the Eight of Swords (from the Camoin). I invite you to ponder this card and consider 1) which (if any) elements might have given rise to the RWS illustration, and 2) which (if any) elements might have been lost in the translation.

Thirteen	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden So... to begin with, pull out the Marseille Eight of Swords, and tell me, what if anything might have given rise to the typical RWS illustration? How did we get here from there? It seems to me that the Thoth deck is far closer to the pips in the Marseille than the RWS. Marseille pips are very like those of regular playing cards--a 4 of diamonds is 4 diamonds and not much more. Similarly, as stylized as the 8/swords are here, they're still just 8 swords. There is little in the flourishes to suggest the meaning of the card. Thoth more or less keeps to that, though its descriptive flourishes suggest meaning. RWS, however, goes in almost the opposite direction. What the card means is formost, and the swords are almost an after thought. Without the swords around her, our blindfolded lady is still emblematic of the card's meaning. Which I suppose is my way of saying that I don't really think the Marseille pips suggested much if anything to RWS. Making an effort, however, I'd say that the one thing the two have in common is that there is a "circle" created by the swords. Fascinating thread topic, by the way.

Imagemaker	16 May 2004
I've looked at the Marseilles very little, but notice that the blue flower/shape is trapped in the center of the swords. Then I thought that the two side sections look like gates, and the red sections of sword-lines remind me of the cattle bars that keep cattle in. They won't go over the iron bars in the ground, though other creatures/humans do. So if the blue flower is a cow, she's trapped by the sword-lines, but could get out of she got over her fear . . . Is this a bit too farfetched (too bovine/rural) for PCS's inspiration?

firemaiden	16 May 2004
LOL, Imagemaker! A cow? How very charming. Now what if that blue flower represented the girl? :D

Imagemaker	16 May 2004
Quote: Now what if that blue flower represented the girl? Well, of course that was my first thought, but then why is she trapped by the lines--so then I had the cow thought . . . hey, you think I have control of my mind??!! I apologize to all blue-flowered girls who sometimes are mistaken for . . . oh, I dare not say it.

firemaiden	16 May 2004
I think the cow imagery, and pasture and catttle bars is fantastic -- I mean it goes to show you how the absense of scenery frees the imagination. (I am attempting to keep my habitual silliness under control here, but I can't help thinking how cool it is, you see the meadow and the cow - they are probably what the bound lass would be looking at if she weren't blindfolded. ) And what about the way the swords are sort of "laced" together?

firemaiden	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Similarly, as stylized as the 8/swords are here, they're still just 8 swords. There is little in the flourishes to suggest the meaning of the card. Though I see your point, Thirteen, generally I'd have to say, that (regardless of whether the flourishes were intended to convey meaning) in combination with the arrangement of suit emblems, they can suggest much. It is interesting to compare the 8 of swords to the 9 of swords, for example. For example, see how the nine has a sword piercing through the center of the circle. Wow! We could go to town reading into that.

laura_borealis	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I think the cow imagery, and pasture and catttle bars is fantastic -- I mean it goes to show you how the absense of scenery frees the imagination. ... And what about the way the swords are sort of "laced" together? Spinning off these ideas, my mind immediately went to wattle fencing, which uses flexible wood such as willow or hazel, and interweaves the stems around posts driven into the ground. Looking again at the Marseille Eight of Swords, I could see the laced-together swords and the red and yellow bands as a wattle fence structure. While googling for images to illustrate wattle fencing, I found this: 14th century image of a lady enclosed in a wattle fence Here our lady is picking fruit in an orchard, protected by the interlaced wattle fencing. She looks rather blithe and carefree, not blindfolded and bound, so I don't suggest that she is the model for Pamela's Eight of Swords. If you scroll through the next few pictures on that site, you'll see several more examples from the same time period of wattle fences in agricultural contexts. They were once very common, being constructed from readily available materials. Is it possible that Pamela could have seen wattle fences in the Marseille card, and that her mind went along a similar path, resulting in her image of a woman fenced in by swords?

firemaiden	16 May 2004
Wow laura borealis! I like how your mind works. (funny new word, wattle, LOL) - That sure is an interesting image, and yes, those enlaced swords sure look like "wattle fencing" I like it, I like it.

firemaiden	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by laura_borealis 14th century image of a lady enclosed in a wattle fence Here our lady is picking fruit in an orchard, protected by the interlaced wattle fencing. She looks rather blithe and carefree, not blindfolded and bound, so I don't suggest that she is the model for Pamela's Eight of Swords. You know, looking at laura borealis's 14th century wattle fencing image again, and looking back at the 8 of swords, I am struck by the amazing and wonderful coincidences of similarity between the two images . I mean, it is really fantastic how the gal enlosed in the wattle fence recalls the blue flower enclosed in the oval of swords. So , if the blue flower in the center of the swords is like a girl in a garden enclosed in wattle fencing ... what new associations now surge up, and how do these contrast with the image and mood of the RWS card?

Imagemaker	16 May 2004
The nub of discussion on the 8 swords has often been whether the woman is free to walk away (out), and the same could be true of the wattle-fenced woman. Is her place inside voluntary or forced. Having just one flower inside a fence raises questions of "why?" just one flower--is it a treasured one or an aborted attempt at a garden. Another way the interpretation possibilities open up with Marseilles. (Isn't the wattle also the hanging red part on a turkey's neck? Fun word!)

firemaiden	16 May 2004
oooooooo, this is really neat. The next wattle-fence image in the series laura linked to is called "Romance of the Rose", and it shows a gentleman entering the garden and plucking a rose. (How much do you think that rose looks like the flowers reaching out from the enlaced eight swords??) I was amazed to see "Romance of the Rose" for the title to the illustration. I read the 13th century Roman de la Rose - both the courtly poem by Guillaume de Lorris, and its re-writing by Jean de Meun. The Rose as metaphor for the emprisoned girl (and her garden of treasures), girl in a tower, girl in an enchanted fortress, is a deep and abiding influence in French literature. I'd say, an obsessive theme.

Umbrae	16 May 2004
How we got from here to there…by Umbrae Draco Eteilla (1785-1807) Criticism, difficult position, critical moment or time, unhappy situation, blame, censure, condemnation, blah blah blah. Mathers (1888) Sickness, calumny, criticism, blame. G.D. (1888-96) Lord of Shortened Force. Too much force, too much attention to detail at the expense of more important issues. Ill dignified, qualities that produce malice, pettiness, and domineering. Impulsive. Waite (1910) Bad news, violent chagrin, crisis, censure, conflict, sickness, scandal. Sooooo…Waite and Colman Smith simply followed what went before. Perhaps the better question is…

firemaiden	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Perhaps the better question is… ...why? or... what came before Etteila?

Umbrae	16 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden or... what came before Etteila? gasp What a heretical thought! Who wrote about the minors before Etteilla? Why...nobody...(of course I may be wrong...documents are yet to be uncovered perhaps). See...that's history. If it's not written down, it does not exist (in the eyes of 'history buffs and experts'). So show me a historical precedence for a fluffy bunny interpretation of this card. Kinda like the historical precedence for the 10 of Swords indicates a fluffy bunny, impaled with 10…you get the picture… The divergence in meanings is modern. Not everybody is able to justify Swords with intelligence and thought – and discord and despair.

firemaiden	16 May 2004
Well, to be poifectly honest, Umbrae, what has been "written about" the cards is not really what I am about. What fascinates me is the actual card, and what it says for itself. :P (anyway, someone I know around here made me throw all my books on the fire, so how would I know what's been written. :D :D :D)

punchinella	16 May 2004
Well, I'm still stuck on this influence-of-the-majors approach to interpreting minor cards, & from this perspective the difference (between cards) is certainly glaring, since the majors themselves are different :mad: I suppose my question would be, not how did 8/swords get from there to here, but how did the major behind it get changed (&, I'm sure, if I were interested enough in finding an answer I probably could, but for the present I'm not :| )

laura_borealis	17 May 2004
Quote: someone I know around here made me throw all my books on the fire "Throw your homework onto the fire Come out and find the one you love" --The Smifs, of course... and earlier, "...if the homework brings you down Then we'll throw it on the fire And take the car downtown" -- lovely David Bowie... to whom Morissey was clearly paying tribute... Who told you to throw your books in the fire? :eek: How appropriate, though, for a fiery maiden, henged 'round with lava flows. ;) Verrry interesting associations with the Romance of the Rose. I am only passingly familiar with it, but the metaphor of the imprisoned girl is apt. The flower on the Marseille card could be a stylized rose -- many old varieties have fewer petals and are flatter blooms than our modern roses. The four decorative items outside the interlaced swords could easily be rosebuds. (or are they fluffy bunnies wearing Pope hats? ;) ) In contrast, the lady on the RWS card is standing in a barren landscape, possibly a seashore, judging from the sandy color, puddles of water, and the position of the castle on the cliff behind her. The water worries me -- is it low tide? Will she realize she can step out of the henge of swords before the water returns? Here the link with the Majors that Punchinella brought up seems to come into play -- if the lady shows courage, resolve, inner Strength -- she can indeed overcome her situation. I forget which card is VIII in the Marseille, though. How does it change things? I'm not so much interested in why the switches were made in Major order, as in musing on connections.... *yawn* sleepy...

jmd	17 May 2004
One omission is the short phrase Papus gives in his Tarot of the Bohemians, viz.: ' Partial opposition to this success . The enemy only partially triumphs.' If one was to reflect even on this alone, and see how it could be depicted, then one of the possibilities becomes as depicted on the WCS: a partial opposition feels as though one is surrounded and bound - and the enemy partially triumphs... and one is blinfolded to the success. I am not suggesting that here is the place from whence the imagery comes - I have just found it useful to see how especially Papus's comments (in conjunction with the Sola Busca deck), seem to reflect so many of the imagery used - even more than the GD titular words. Also, to complete the quote by Mathers, he adds (following the short list given by Umbrae): R [eversed :] Treachery in the past, Event, Accident, Remarkable Incident. A few pages later, he also adds further comments taken, he tells us, from Eteilla: Shows Treachery or Deceit in the past, and will be explained by the neighbouring cards. All in all, this undoubtedly shows that there was sufficient variety for Waite and, probably especially, Colman Smith to generally reflect and allow a fairly spontaneous depiction to arise - ie, to allow the wonderful artistis creative process to unveil what the hand perhaps began to draw.

tmgrl2	20 May 2004
VIII also = LaJustice....Justice is blind (i.e., judges fairly) as she walks through the minefield of swords thrust about her.... center flower in C-J...focus and concentration not to be distracted by outer influences,,, 8 as a double 4...two squares (almost visible as squares in the crossed portions of swords on C-J in upper and lower center...more orderly here in the TdM...nothing can break through the density of the two fours....yet in RW...we have 5 + 3 ...five swords to right of woman and three to left with one of three prominently in front of her...as if presenting itself to justice (8) 3 the number of the triangle...mind, body, spirit\ 5 the pentagram that holds the body of many with blinded woman in center who "decides" from within , who is bound but not unable to make decisions...not unable to move, since her legs are not bound...she is not really helpless. just musings as I look at both.. terri

tmgrl2	20 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae How we got from here to there…by Umbrae Draco Umbrae ..."Draco" ...hardly.. terri

firemaiden	21 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by laura_borealis Verrry interesting associations with the Romance of the Rose. I am only passingly familiar with it, but the metaphor of the imprisoned girl is apt. The flower on the Marseille card could be a stylized rose -- many old varieties have fewer petals and are flatter blooms than our modern roses. The four decorative items outside the interlaced swords could easily be rosebuds. (or are they fluffy bunnies wearing Pope hats? ;) ) At last, someone who understands me! (and/or is on to my game) Yes, and doesn't the rose on the illustration look like the rosebuds outside the interfaced swords? Quote: In contrast, the lady on the RWS card is standing in a barren landscape, possibly a seashore, judging from the sandy color, puddles of water, and the position of the castle on the cliff behind her. The water worries me -- is it low tide? Will she realize she can step out of the henge of swords before the water returns? Yes!! It's almost the flip side of the roman de la rose image, isn't it! In fact, it reminds me of the Georges Bataille quote from L'anus solaire, that this world is but the parody of the other. ("It is clear that the world is purely parody, in other words, that each thing seen is the parody of another, or is the same thing in a deceptive/disappointing form...") Is the bound lady standing in puddles not the parody of the emprisoned princess/rose?

firemaiden	21 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 VIII also = La Justice....Justice is blind (i.e., judges fairly) as she walks through the minefield of swords thrust about her... Interesting, isn't it, that the blinded gal in the RWS 8 of swords can relate to the idea of blinded Justice. However, what is interesting about Justice in the Marseille, and also the RWS, is precisely that she is not blinded. In fact if you carefully consider the gaze and direction of eyes on all the cards in the Tarot de Marseille, the eyes of Justice have a more direct and penetrating gaze than any other character depicted on the cards- with the possible exception of the angel of Judgement. (Perhaps the 8 of swords is in fact the parody of Justice?) Of course, as Imagemaker has suggested, it may be more appropriate to relate RWS 8 sw the Strength card if you are going to go that route, relating majors to minors for the RWS.

Savoyali	21 May 2004
What an interesting, enjoyable discussion :) Now you have me wanting a TdM, too! ::sigh:: I keep going back to 'what may have been left out in translation', and if we're on the track of blue flower=girl, then perhaps the four other flowers should have been persons as well? They are outside the fencing, and have turned their backs on Ms Trapped, but possibly they'd turn around and show her the way out if she called out to them? On the other hand, they might be guarding the gates and it's really them flower gal/cow is afraid of, instead of the gates as such, i.e. it might as well be others' ideas who are fencing her in.

firemaiden	21 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Savoyali if we're on the track of blue flower=girl, then perhaps the four other flowers should have been persons as well? They are outside the fencing, and have turned their backs on Ms Trapped, but possibly they'd turn around and show her the way out if she called out to them? On the other hand, they might be guarding the gates and it's really them flower gal/cow is afraid of, instead of the gates as such, i.e. it might as well be others' ideas who are fencing her in. What a wonderful, and fun insight! I love this Savoyali, thank you.

tmgrl2	22 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden So... to begin with, pull out the Marseille Eight of Swords, and tell me, what if anything might have given rise to the typical RWS illustration? How did we get here from there? Have been reflecting on both cards again...I'm not sure we can know how we got here from there.....in part because I still feel in the TdM, the 8 Swords relates to VIII Trump/Justice..(while VIII is Strength in RWS). What I meant about "Justice is blind" was a reference to William Penn's statements about impartiality and justice..that Justice is shown as Blind, because she sees no difference in the Parties concerned. She is not guided by person, but by cause..knows only the Law: Princes, Peasants, Kindrids carry no more sway than a Stranger...There's nothing to say that by "blindfolding" the woman, the RWS 8Swords DOESN'T have these elements incorporated. If we look at Swords as Intellect, I do see both the central flower in the TdM and the woman in the RWS as representing someone being "fenced in"...one who has too many ideas with no direction...maybe that's why the woman is blindfolded..she is lost in a myriad of inner thoughts, bound with the ties (around her body and eyes) of lack of direction, isolated with her own mental blocks, the eight swords on the RWS standing for the intellectual blocks of restriction. Yet , her feet are not bound, her castle perhaps is in the background, she has no one else there...so doesn't perhaps need protection, only needs to "see" her way through. "walk into her own solution, make her own decisions that will set her free again." In the TdM, the central flower according to Klea's discussion on 8's ....could stand for the "octagon"....(one could see as two overlayed squares enclosed by an imaginary perfect circle)...between heaven and earth, two fours....Earth represented by a four, and with two squares overlayed forming the octagon which = 8 for Quote: (my translation) to be human is to find oneself between heaven (12) and Earth (4) and 12-4=8....placing 8 in conjuction with Scorpio the eighth sign of the Zodiac Klea goes on to relate this to Karma in that (to paraphrase) if man stops being in charge of his own reason for existence, he will be subject to his own Karma, and thus be obliged to "do it over again." Thus, the TdM may use a very symmetrical yet simple symbol, whereas the RWS uses the woman bound. In this discussion of the eight and the central "octagon-shaped flower, by Klea in Au Fil D'Arcane, I see a similarity to RWS in that both the woman bound and blinded and the central flower in the TdM might represent the mind that sabotages itself, that is restricted (certainly the TdM 8 d'Epee looks like a card of restriction to me), The woman in the RWS, can "walk away from her restrictions since her feet are not bound..." She can get the answers and the help...she is awaiting the "light of truth"..this is how Kris Hadar refers to the 8 Swords. The woman in the RWS stands poised and appears to be quietly within, her head bowed in reflection. In order to "break free" of her mental confusion, she may need to "blind herself" to go within and methodically sort through her "swords" of ideas to come to the best solutions.....Rxd, the card would be more one of disorder, imbalance of thought. That's what I have been mulling over since yesterday morning when I hastily posted before work...I so enjoy reading everyone's ideas on "comparison" cards because I believe, utltimately, while we may not find a direct "historical" provable line from one deck to another, there are probably elements within the various decks that are universal that we can internalize. So this is an excellent way to allow us to examine what we have in common when we look at similar cards from different decks. terri

The Influences on RWS pip depictions - how we got here from there... 8 of swords thread was originally posted on 16 May 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.