Justice... Temperance... Judgement

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aoife	07 Jun 2004
Just whittering out loud.... I started to see a continuous thread ..... from VIII... to... XIV... to... XX.... each separated by 6 cards... 6... a transitional number.... ... from the human-made/delivered, cool temporal Justice which separates, weighs, discriminates [sometimes/often unfairly]... ... to the more gentle, emotional merging and blending of Temperance.... ... to the scary, inspiring finality of a divine Judgement. And then I dropped my stitches..... Can anyone knit a cohesive view from this jumble?

Moonbow*	07 Jun 2004
A puzzle.. lovely... 6 is a searching number, it represents people searching for perfection or harmony, but not in the sense that 7 does. 7 is actually finding perfection and 6 is searching for it.... This is what I read some time ago and I think it applies quite nicely to the ladder (well you did drop the stitches) between these three cards. If 6 is a searching number perhaps people who are searching, pause at Justice, Temperance and Judgement.....Have you noticed too, that all three cards seem to be about change or balance? Justice, can go one of two ways, depending on how the scales weigh, then Temperance which is about the balance of blending, then Judgement takes on the change of renewal or a new direction. Nope, I can't seem to pick up all the stitches either.............

Thirteen	07 Jun 2004
The link, if there's a link, is in how to deal with a situation. One tells you to cut in half. The other to merge. And the third to let go entirely. Justice is, indeed, cool and objective. An attempt to balance the scales. The sword is the clue: cut it in half. Make things equal. This is because Justice often has to do with a situation where things are unequal. You have lots of money, your friend has little. Justice cuts the collective wealth in half and gives you both the same. You may not like this, but it's fair. It's equal. Temperance, on the other hand, is about mixing and merging in order to get "moderation." The two cups clue you into that. You were going to drink that whole cup of wine--but you decide to mix it with water. Justice would say: "You got drunk the last time you were at a party, so this time, you HAVE to abstain. That's only fair." The sword, right? "Cut it out!" Temperance says, "drink a diluted cup of wine this time instead of one at full potency." But there's more! Temperance also has to do with "tempering"--There is the heat and cold issue going on here. You heat metal, you cool it, and suddenly, it's steel instead of iron. In this respect, Temperance is more a matter of "alchemy" then balance. Thesis + Anti-Thesis = synthesis. Temperance is creating a third option. In the case of you havng money and your friend having none, Temperance would say: "Put all the money together and invest in a business." Merge in order to create something new and better. As for Judgement...Judgement says, "give up the money altogether and move on!" Judgement, you see, is all about rising to the next level. But you can't do that if you're dragging along all this baggage. With Judgement, you find a way to free yourself of anything that's holding you back. That includes your sins, grievances or guilt, even earthly wants and desires. Judgement is what you get if you and your friend go to Gandhi and ask what you should do with the money--"Split it evenly it? Put it into one pot and invest it?"--and he says, "Give it away, be free of it!" Thus, you move from Justice where the answer is always: be absolutely fair. Cut it in half. Separate but equal. Onto Temperance where the answer is always: be moderate; mix and blend ingredients into something new. Onto Judgement where the answer is always: confront, release and move on. At least, that's my take on these cards.

Aoife	08 Jun 2004
Wonderful stuff! Thank you Moonbow* and Thirteen

Ravenswing	08 Jun 2004
... it's truth. Thirteen, I see things from a different angle then you. :D Please everyone, don't forget that these are no more than my opinions, founded upon my personal experiences. I claim little grasp on truth. From the English gematria 'justice' = 'truth'. And then there's that story about King Solomon. Cut the kid in two? Make things equal? That MAY be fair, but it's far from just. People tend to confuse the two. Fairness treats everyone as equal and levels things out. Justice gives you what you deserve. Of course, there's a balance of the scales. But the measure is truth, not fairness. Justice is applied from the outside in. Temperence is another balance. I don't see it as finding moderation-- Again, from the English Gematria 'Temperance' = 'harmonics', 'temporal','personal' and 'stress'. Temperance is a matter of finding the internal balance. Yes, I see it as the alchemical process. Many times, it is the resolution of paradox, the merging of diametrically opposed opposites. Yes, temperence is about tempering. Taking two forms through trial by fire and making a unified structure. You don't just take iron to make steel, there's the addition mainly of carbon. No majickal transformation-- it's a uniting of two that creates something more than we started out with. Another example-- take chlorine gas. It's a greenish poisonous gas. And then there's sodium. It's a metal that will explode if it contacts air. But if you mix them properly, what do you get?? Salt. A substance vital to life. This is temperance. It's applied from the inside out. Then Judg(e)ment. There's two accepted spellings-- both speelingshave been used in decks. It's a real mystery to me. From the English gematria 'Judgment' = 'esoteric', but 'Judgement' = 'exoteric'. Seems like a bit of confusion here.... Maybe Judg(e)ment has to go through Temperence LOL!!! But I see Judg(e)ment as Temperance applied by "external and higher" forces. Rather than uniting and refining a particular life, I see it as either a re-joining of all lives of a person or the uniting with the higher "cosmic consciousness" and the archetypal man--Adam Kadmon (I'm not sure if there's any real difference) Justice comes from outside in, Temperance from inside out. Judg(e)ment just comes. No stopping it. At least that's how I see it. fly well Raven

Jewel-ry	08 Jun 2004
In my Hadar Marseille deck, they could all be Angels, they certainly look like they all have wings. In Temperance and Judgement it is obvious but even in the Justice card, it is a possiblility. Six is the Hexagram, a six-pointed star formed of upright and reversed triangles. It represents the union of Male and Female. The connection here to 6 as I see it, is 2 x 3's, a balance, union, harmony, give and take. As you say Aoife, transition. Each one of these cards incorprates its own version of balance and moves on from the last. In Justice its about truth and the balance is cause and effect. Her sword points straight up. This makes me think of 'straight as a die', so we should look for honesty and be true to ourselves. Be open and honest. Its an external consequence. Temperance is about balancing the outer and inner, finding a middle road, bridging the gaps, getting the right chemistry, restraint. Temper is a reference point. Losing it, means losing control, balance, reason, to tip over the edge, or to be further one side than the other. Again, there is a balance here, a reciprocation, it comes from within. In Judgement the Angel dominates the sky, blows her trumpet as a signal or sign that the time is right. It could be calling to account for something .. the past? Again, moving on ... a six. Accept the past and move on. Transition. This is a higher more spiritual manifestation. I like the link to the sixes. :)

Thirteen	08 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing People tend to confuse the two. Fairness treats everyone as equal and levels things out. Justice gives you what you deserve. I think we're splitting hairs, or kids here. Yes, fairness treats us all as equals--but Justice is fairness imposed on a world that isn't fair. If the world was fair, we wouldn't need Justice, would we? We'd never have to go to court and say, "Your honor, it isn't right! The property line says this is mine, but he's planting his trees on it!"--because the ground itself would keep our neighbor from planting his trees on our land. If the world was fair, we wouldn't dare kill anyone for fear that the world would sudden deprive us of someone we cared about. We wouldn't hurt people for fear we'd be hurt. Eye-for-an-eye, yes? And we would know for a fact that if we worked hard, we would get that promotion--and not have to go to court because we were passed over and someone undeserving go the job because we're a woman or a minority or a senior citizen and management doesn't promote our kind. When Justice adjusts the scales, it's restoring--or trying to restore--the balance, what is fair in an unfair world. It HAS to be more than just what someone "deserves." Otherwise, it's the same as revenge. Is revenge the same as justice? I don't think so. If someone hurts your child, you usually want them to suffer MORE than your child suffered, not equally. That's revenge. Punishment. This is often why judges cut down money awarded by juries as well--because outraged juries want enact revenge--or they feel someone "deserves" more than they really deserve. For example, Charlie Chaplin was made to pay for a child that wasn't his. The mother claimed it was his, but evidence showed it wasn't. Why did the jury decide to make him pay? Because he had money, the kid didn't. And because he had fooled around with the mom--with a lot of women. They imposed a moral judgement on him. The kid (1) DESERVED the money, and Chaplin (2) DESERVED to pay for his immoral lifetsyle. But this wasn't justice. It wasn't "Fair" to make him pay for a child that wasn't his. Justice is...well, just. I agree that it's imposed from the outside. And a good thing, too. A judge can say, "That's enough" and "they've paid for their crime." The wounded party--or even a sympathetic jury--doesn't know when it's enough. As for the story of Solomon--we tend to confuse detective stories of discoving the truth with stories of justice because justice usually involves finding the truth. When Solomon threatens to cut the kid in half, all he's trying to do is get to the truth--who the real mom is. That shows us how smart Sol was. But not how he dispenses justice. In order to know that, we ought to also hear about what restitution he required from the mom who stole the kid, lied about it being hers, and put the other mom though so much trouble.

Thirteen	08 Jun 2004
Just to add on Judgement: I scanned through my tarot books--and the general impression of this card is that the reader should look less at the title, Judgement, and more at the image of ressurection and finality. Most of the interpetations of this card involve, yes, a final decision or sentence, but also a message of coming back. Ressurecting yourelf from a dead time. In addition, there is Crowley's interpetation of transformation--moving to a higher plane, a baptismal, a rising up from the material world into the spiritual world. Judgement, as it were, is that of the spiritual, inner self on the outer, material self. We might say that this is a card where the Judgement is total and true and final, as compared to just balancing the scales. Where all you are and all you've done is judged by you or by a higher power. Perhaps the most important thing of this card is its finality. This is a card about making big, important decisions that change your life. Or about big, important decisions made by others that change your life. It, perhaps, would be more accurately titled: FINAL JUDGEMENT rather than just judgement.

Ravenswing	08 Jun 2004
Thirteen-- I don't see Justice as being connected with legalities and law. I think therein lies our differences. But, since you've brought it to my attention, I'll have to go contemplate this one over. Thanks for your view. fly well Raven Oh yeah-- isn't there a deck here or thare that calls it the "Last Judgment"? Or perhaps I'm just thinking of Michelangelo...

Thirteen	08 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing Oh yeah-- isn't there a deck here or thare that calls it the "Last Judgment"? Or perhaps I'm just thinking of Michelangelo... Probably! There are so many decks out there. Contemplating it, I think that one of the best images for Judgement really should be that scene in Casablanca where Rick tells Ilsa to get on the plane with Victor. No, really, hear me out! It exactly what the card is all about--a final decision that changes everything--and elevates/ressurects everyone as it does so. It's final, these lovers will never see each other again--and their lives are now on a final course as well. It changes everything, changes each one of them. And it elevates/ressurects. Rick gets back his fighting spirit, Victor gets back the woman who inspires him, and Ilsa gets back the purity of her Paris romance. Yep. If I were creating a deck, I think that would be my "Last Judgement" card. To heck with dark age images of people rising out of coffins. Let's have some modern iconography that we can all get behind.

Moongold	08 Jun 2004
Quote: originally posted by Moonbow* 6 is a searching number, it represents people searching for perfection or harmony, but not in the sense that 7 does. 7 is actually finding perfection and 6 is searching for it.... Do we not search for everything? I have always seen 7 as more the seeking number but there does not seem to be any real authority about numerology and perhaps it is simply a matter of choice. I also understand 6 to be the number which represents harmony and perhaps that is the underlying theme of Justice …..Temperance ……Judgement. All of these things in their own way seem connected to balance > harmony. Perhaps the restoration of balance and harmony? 6 is the number for Lovers which is also about integration, one aspect of harmony - the bringing together of opposites. Also the uniting of the Self with Shadow, some say. Harmony of the Self. 6 is also the number for Venus, which is particularly important at this time given the transit of Venus and the Sun yesterday. The qualities of Venus are Yin energy, harmony, beauty, love, balance and values.

Sillanza	09 Jun 2004
As Moongold pointed out, the 6 is the number of the Lovers, and hence of choice. Don't all these cards have an element of choice in them? Justice. Here's another spin: justice isn't always fair and doesn't always give you what you deserve -- it just is what it is. I agree with Ravenswing that Justice is very much an outward influence. In the case of Justice, the choice isn't always yours to make ... I always find the surrounding cards to tell the story of what Justice you are, or aren't, getting or who else might be getting it! Temperance. I always found Temperance to be the midpoint between Justice and Judgment -- it's marrying the outward and inward to make something more unique than there might have been before. In some cases, to make something out of nothing. The choice that exists here is which of your internal reserves will you bring to bear in the given situation. Judgment. Since the Fool is almost at the end of his journey at this point, the choice here is fairly clear: what will you be willing to acknowledge, change, or let go of in order to progress? Thirteen's "Casablanca" comparison is an excellent example. (P.S., New Palladini calls it the Last Judgment, but I also recall one that called it the *Final* Judgment -- turned me off.) Great discussion!

Ravenswing	09 Jun 2004
A bit here about 6 and 7. Divide up the circle in six-- you get the hexagon. It's a naturally occurring shape. And of the three shapes that can divide the plane (triangle, square and hexgon)it's the most efficent. Think of a beehive. All right now, divide the circle into seven. It doesn't work out evenly. In fact, if you take the basic numbers from 1 to 10, it's the ONLY one that won't. It creates a strange repeating decimal when you try. Something really special about seven here.... fly well Raven

Moongold	09 Jun 2004
You're right, Raven ~ At risk of going off topic, 7 is the number of mystery, seeking and Saturn. All the numbers have different levels of meaning and 7 is supposed also to represent wisdom>perfected learning. No, it doesn't fit anything . Certainly value driven, but of its nature often not harmonious. Seeks harmony though. VII Chariot is sometomes seen as a bridge between different stages of enlightenment and the theme Harmony through conflict is often associated with Chariot. see this MeeWah makes some interesting observations about triangles in the major arcana, as Aoife has with Justice/Temperance/harmony, however and that is worth consideration.

Ravenswing	09 Jun 2004
Moongold-- What if we extend the sevenishness a bit: 7--14--21: Chariot-- Temperance-- World Hmmm. Another triplet with Temperance in the middle. SO... If 8--14--20: (Justice...Temperance...Judgement) is a 6 series and 7--14-21: (Chariot-- Temperance -- World) is a 7 series, does that mean that Temperance might imply 1 = 0??? :confused: Shades of Uncle Al. }) I think my metaphysics is leaking again... fly Raven

Moongold	09 Jun 2004
Raven ~ I feel quite guilty about hijacking Aoife's thread and maybe I'll ask the Moderators to split the thread. That second triangle you mention MeeWah actually addresses in her post in the Harmony through Conflict thread. The conjunction of XIV Temperance in both triangles is interesting though. Gives weight to Temperance as fulcrum doesn't it? These links - all connected. And who is Uncle Al? Moongold

Rusty Neon	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold And who is Uncle Al? Aleister Crowley, I presume.

Ravenswing	10 Jun 2004
...is none other than Aliester Crowley.... Interesting thought that. Temperence as fulcrum, I mean. And as a fulcrum, Temperance would HAVE to be balanced, wouldn't it? Perhaps we might see Temperance as a more crucial balance than the other two (from either the 6 or 7). Getting back to 6-- The sephirah Beauty-- numbered 6-- is the central point on the Tree of Life. Balancing the Justice-- Temperance-- Judg(e)ment triad would bring balance to the Tree.... Temperance as a 'balance of stillness' moving from 6 to 7 (Victory) sets in motion the process of manifestation. So here we might see Temperance as 'balance in motion' hmmm.... fly well Raven

Thirteen	10 Jun 2004
There is, Qabalisticly speaking, most certainly a "motion" to the balance of Temperance. This is what Wang (THE QABALISTIC TAROT) has to say of Temperance: "Key 14 is the beginning of an awareness of the Higher Self of Tiphareth. The card demonstrates not the experience itself, but how the experience is brought about, i.e., thourgh an exchange and balance of opposites...." In other word, the balance achieved by Temperance is created by that motion, cup to cup, rather than say, shifting coins from one plate to the other until balance is achieved. He goes on to say that, "the willful interchange of fire and water is the merging or tempering of energy opposites within the body....The process is one of bringing the Spirit into the body so that it tempers the consciousness and is, itself, tempered by the consciousness thus forming something new, something which is 'more than the sum of its parts.'" He concludes by saying that, "The whole experience is one of preparation of the Personality, and the body in which it is operating, to deal with an influx of Light which would be devastating to a system unready to handle such energy. Most important here is the monitoring of progress, the continual testing from above." Which is why there is an Angel pouring, measuring and testing how much those cups can endure. But remember, angels are just "sentinal at each inner gate...there for our protection." (Wang 177-181) Uncle Al, being Uncle Al, refers to Temperance as the awakening of sexuality--um, having fun with ourselves--which is why it's connected to the Lovers (as well as magic and spirituality). It is that awakening sexuality which will eventually lead us to, and transform into, the very powerful connection, both physical and spiritual, of true LOVE--aka, The Lovers.

full deck	10 Jun 2004
Thirteen, I appreciate your view of "Temperance", since I can follow your distinctions back to the origins of Temperance, of moderation. (see http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26929 for my comments on the conceptual origins of temperance) I also like the reference to the alchemical, which makes perfect sense.

nodntap	11 Jun 2004
If you start with Key/Trump #2 - The High Priestess Then add 3 you get Key/Trump #5 - The Hierophant Again adding 3 we get Key/Trump #8 - Strength (or Justice) Add 3 you have Key/Trump #11 Justice (or Strength) Add 3 again and you have Key/Trump #14 - Temperance. Add 3 again and we have Key/Trump #17 - The Star And finally adding 3 once more we have Key/Trump #20 - Judgment What I find rather odd (perhaps strange) is that all but 1 of the 'single named Majors' falls under this particular 3 sequence. Strength, Justice, Temperance, and Judgment all fall within this 3 sequence. Only ... Death (Key/Trump #13) is missing. Hummm, and Death contains the number ... 3.

nodntap	11 Jun 2004
If you add the numbers 2+5+8+11+14+17+20 you get 77. 77 reduces down to 7+7= 14 - Temperance. Which reduces down to 1+4=5 - The Hierophant. Both of which are included in the 3 sequence I gave. 77 is also the number of tarot cards in most decks if you exclude The Fool. Here is the 3 sequence starting with The Magician - Key/Trump #1. This is where Key/Trump #13 - Death falls. This sequence is heavily into Fire and lacks any Earth influences. 1 - The Magician (Air) 4 - The Emperor (Fire) 7 - The Chariot (Water) (could be considered ill-dignified) 10 - The Wheel of Fortune (Fire) 13 - Death (Water) (could be considered ill-dignified) 16 - The Tower (Fire) 19 - The Sun (Fire) 22 - The Fool (Air) The last of the 3 sequences is the number/key 3 - The Empress. Note that there are NO single named Majors in this sequence. As you might expect this 3 sequence is heavily influenced by Earth and Water and is completely devoid of Fire. 3 - The Empress (Earth) 6 - The Lovers (Air) (could be considered ill-dignified) 9 - The Hermit (Earth) 12 - The Hanged Man (Water) 15 - The Devil (Earth) 18 - The Moon (Water) 21 - The World (Earth) By the way - the sequence of 3 starting with the Key #2 has all the elements represented. In fact it has almost a perfect distribution of elements except for the single Earth card/element. 2 - The High Priestess (Water) 5 - The Hierophant (Earth) 8 - Strength (Fire) 11 - Justice (Air) 14 - Temperance (Fire) 17 - The Star (Air) 20 - Judgement (Water) 2-Water 1-Earth 2-Fire 2-Air Note: If you read elemental dignities - the #2 sequence starting with The High Priestess is the only one that doesn't have ill-dignified cards in the sequence. I do tend to spend a lot of time on bizarre things, LOL.

Ravenswing	11 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by nodntap Strength, Justice, Temperance, and Judgment all fall within this 3 sequence. Only ... Death (Key/Trump #13) is missing. In the 'original' tarot, Death was the Trump with No Name. Maybe that's why it's missing :laugh: Nodntap-- bizzare is good }) fly well Raven

The Justice... Temperance... Judgement thread was originally posted on 07 Jun 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.