Judgement: Doom and Gloom?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

TemperanceAngel	06 Jul 2004
The Judgment card is one that I find that seems to contradict itself, on one hand it's about transformation, an awakening and liberation and on the other hand the figures rise from tombs. Which is still an awakening, perhaos a little morbid. I understand that this could be a metaphor for being woken from what would appear to be a deep sleep or a 'death' to suddenly 'see the light'. Or perhaps make sense of a situation. And the angel, conjures up biblical imagery for me: "And the angels heralded the trumpets..." The angel brings an almost divine awakening into the situation. So this all makes sense. On a divination level when reading for a client I don't always see that the awakening they have had has been a divine one or quite often the client doesn't realise the awakening at all or the tramsformation. I often associate this card with The HP, as 20 breaks down to 2. So could it be that was is 'feminine' or has been hidden, on the inner has now come to light? How do you bring this in depth Major Arcana down to a more mundane level? Any thoughts anyone? The image I am describing is from the RWS, I would love to hear what others have to say about this image or any other :)

ros	06 Jul 2004
The inner light is cooperating on a higher spiritual level. So maybe the person is being aware of their intuition and can understand what they are aware of now. "Brings light to things that are hidden to bring peace of mind." Cleaning out the past with forgiveness. The HP would be the knowing the Judgement would be understanding. Just an idea, don't even know if I'm close.

TemperanceAngel	06 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ros The inner light is cooperating on a higher spiritual level. So maybe the person is being aware of their intuition and can understand what they are aware of now. "Brings light to things that are hidden to bring peace of mind." Cleaning out the past with forgiveness. The HP would be the knowing the Judgement would be understanding. But perhaps ros, they don't always need to know or be aware that the inner light is co-operating on a higher spiritual level, it's not for everyone. I like your thoughts about the knowing and understanding, understanding is a great key word for Judgment. Also hidden things come to light, makes sense. Thanks for your food for thought ros :)

Imagemaker	06 Jul 2004
Just from a most practical interpretation of Biblical themes, I see Judgment as the time when a person "sees" what his life was, the meaning, the journey now ending. So I look at Judgment in a spread as a time of evaluation before moving forward to new opportunity. It may be a moment of celebration and "arrival" before the new realm opens.

TemperanceAngel	06 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker So I look at Judgment in a spread as a time of evaluation before moving forward to new opportunity. It may be a moment of celebration and "arrival" before the new realm opens. Very nicely put Imagemaker, thanks! I have thought about posting this thread for awhile and am glad that I finally have, already so many wonderful insights!

Dark Inquisitor	06 Jul 2004
Thoughts on Judgement: A second chance; that which you thought was a dead issue raises itself once again. Great uprush of life energy , successful endeavor , good health , hearing a higher calling . Recovery from illness or bad, blocked life flow. Reversed : feeling low energy , illness coming on . Depression. Resolution of a matter , a decision .Reversed : bad judgement - untrustworthy perception , skewed thinking. Something hidden about to be revealed, possibly a surprise. Reversed : something hidden you don't know; something buried for real or in the past.

TemperanceAngel	06 Jul 2004
Thanks Tarotphelia, great stuff! In laymens terms: 'Things will start making sense?' OR 'Things that have previously been hidden start to make sense?' OR 'Gaining an understanding on something that has previously been unknown or unaware or has not made sense?' Excuse my ramblings...

Dark Inquisitor	06 Jul 2004
Clarifying now: If you're sick, you're getting well. If you're down , you're going back up. If it's lost, it will be found. If your brain is fuzzy , it will clear up. If things have been crap, it is going to get better. You might hear voices.

ros	07 Jul 2004
Judgement could also mean a personal release. After working through what we hold, we can let go what we repress. "they don't always need to know...it's not for everyone." I feel we learn Tarot and read Tarot for people to learn and to teach what inner light and spiritual levels are. If we don't understand by our own learning, we need someone to explain this to us. It may not be for everyone but isn't that what draws us to Tarot? To learn about knowing which the HP tells about then Judgement the understanding? As you can tell I'm not good with discussions and I may be all wrong here, don't know.

Jewel-ry	08 Jul 2004
Great thoughts everyone, I always have problems with this card too. In fact its my least favourite card in almost every deck (anyone ever done a thread on that I wonder ... I feel another thread coming on). Understanding is a great word. I also sometimes think of 'paying attention', or 'standing up and be counted', even a 'realisation'. :)

TemperanceAngel	08 Jul 2004
ros you always under estimate your thoughts :) The card itself I find difficult to deal with in laymens terms simply because it's so deep. That sounds pathetic, but I rally find this card so deep, that in 15 years I still haven't got to the bottom of it. At the same time everyones thoughts here on AT have helped so much. lark said something once about Judgment, can't find the thread now, but lark please come back. There are 2 things here: what you think of the card as a Major and how do you explain it via a reading?

Dexter	10 Jul 2004
Hi; The following was something I wrote in another thread talking about which card represented "Grace". The card that always made me think of this was Judgement. I had forgotten how to insert a quote so I just searched for the thread and cut and pasted it in this repy. "I would also like to say thankyou for this spread and all it's beautiful insights. The card that came immediately to my mind after reading the initial guestion and before reading the rest of the posts is Judgement. To me grace represents a state of mind. An acceptance of all that has gone before and the ability to accept what is to come. To believe that within yourself you have made peace to the best of your ability with everyone and everything that has gone on in your life. To understand that you cannot change what has happened before but that you now understand why it happened and are ready to let go. You are now ready to move on and accept (again that word ) judgement from a higher power to be bestowed with the gift of light and knowledge." Dexter

lark	10 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel lark said something once about Judgment, can't find the thread now, but lark please come back. There are 2 things here: what you think of the card as a Major and how do you explain it via a reading? hi TA... I said my "aha" moment with Judgment was reading the words Release and Transformation. In a reading when I see Judgment the person is not in the process of changing but has already changed. And that change often times come with a release from an actual physical situation like an illness or divorce, ect.... And many, many times it has indicated an act of forgiveness. Either they are released by forgiving or by being forgiven. A complete change of mind or body and sometimes both. And it is often dramatic and sudden, and most important unexpected. Let's dissect Judgement a little bit.... What is Judgement Day? If you don't have a base in christian concepts this card can be a little tricky to understand. Judgement is sudden~ the trump of God can sound at any time and so you will be judged. But what else happens. You are transformed~ your body in the grave, meets your spirit, this spirit has been residing with God in heaven since you died and now you become one again. BUT!!! this is a new body unlike any you have experienced for it is incorruptable and can never die, feel pain, be hurt, ect, you have the spirit and body of God now. You are also judged~ for your deeds on earth.....in some religions the good go to heaven and the bad to hell. In others you are covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross and you are sinless in Gods site. You then go to enjoy the New Heaven and the New Earth, in your new body. Both ideas lend themselves to the idea of forgiveness in Judgment. When you go through the Judgement card you come out cleansed and forgiven, transformed and ready to start a new, fresh, chapter in you life. Thats why I believe it comes before the World card. Of course there are many other cultures and religious ideas of judgement (and I'd love to hear about them.) But the above is your basic Christian concept that seems to be depicted in many decks. And how I came to my understanding of Judgement. This is becoming a very long post but what does it mean in practical terms in a reading. There are so many I don't know where to start, as AT said Judgement is a very deep card. Lets look at it RX for a minute, it could mean 1. Not wanting change or growth 2. Regreting a past decission 3. Failing a test or a fear of being judged 4. Using bad judgement about a situation 5. You can't see the big picture or you missed out on some important news. Upright some of my thoughts are: 1. Awakening to something you never saw before 2. A new philosophy or sense of purpose 3. Getting an apology or apologizing 4. A sense of freedom because you have taken care of things and now have less worry in your life. #4 comes up alot with this card. People often put things off especially doctor or dentist appointments and build up this huge fear and sense of guilt about it. I'll ask if they have recently taken care of something like this and a big smile will come over there face and they'll say "Ya, I just went to the dentist last week and I haven't been there in 10 years." Well for them this is a big event, and one thats left them with a sense of release and transformation. 5. Which brings me to my favorite Release and Transformation I'd love to hear other ideas about Judgement And thanks for letting me rattle on like this it was fun. :)

Chronata	10 Jul 2004
I love everyone's descriptions and revelations about the Judgement card. Here are a few of my own musings... I have actually always really loved this card. Maybe because it's message to me has always been "Personal transformation...you are ready" There are other cards about change...(Death) Other cards about cycles beginning and ending (Fool,World,Wheel) But this card...more than any other... depicts that cycle of catapiller to butterfly. It begins when someone wants a change in thier life...maybe they don't know what they want to change...or how they will go about it...but it is that energy of the desire for change that starts the process. Unlike Death...which to me, always signifies a change or a transformation that occurs whether one is ready for it or not...the Changes in Judgement always appearto be those that a person is actively seeking...working on and building up to. So...in the first stage...a person may do spiritual housecleaning...spinning the cocoon...I see people getting rid of things that no longer hold any real value...whether it is physical clutter, one-sided relationships, or an outdated belief. (the eight of cups often appears at this stage...as does the two of wands) In the second stage...there is gestation.Waiting.The cocoon is spun, and now there is a time of reflection, and patience. Sometimes it appears to be inaction...but the process is in significant change.The catapiller is slowly changing...but often doesn't notice the signs of this.( This is the time where the Hanged Man, the 4 of swords, the 7 of pentacles appear...) And then comes the emergence...the total transformation. The butterfly stage. breaking out of the period of rest...or a time where nothing seemed to be done. This is where the Judgement card occurs...a time where there is renewal of energy, renewed excitement, renewed health, and everything is changing to your specifications. There is new optimism here...but the real point is that you have now emerged as a new person...you think differently, feel differently...and act differently. And you have the control over all the situations around you...to change them to fit into your brand new point of view. This to me...is the butterfly effect...the total change and transformation that is heralded by the Judgement card...that says "Time to break free from the cocoon of your old life and spread your wings...Time for new freedom...Time to fly." It also says "This is it...You are ready..It's about time...Just do it!" Thanks for letting me ramble. Like I said...I really love this card...and all that it embodies.

yodatazzmeeko	12 Jul 2004
WOW!! Thank you everyone for sharing!! This is great!

blackroseivy	12 Jul 2004
I find "Death" considerably more morbid! In my opinion, this card represents, on the Journey, a joyous summoning to Paradise. My musical "Judgement" key is from Peter Gabriel's "Passion: Sountrack to the Last Temptation of Christ" (it's funny that I'm a Druidess!): "It Is Accomplished", which is joyous bells ringing & I feel sums up the card very well. Yes, they are graves, but the symbolism has to be blatant & very basic to get the message across. I hope this helps you to "lighten up" just a little on the card! :D

Luminessence	12 Jul 2004
I usually see the Judgment card as signifying being almost ready to move into a new and higher stage of life, but having to deal with the last unplesant stuff that's holding you back. I find that this meaning can be applied on both a spiritual and a mundane level. I really like the Judgment card in the Ancestral Path Tarot - it shows several images if a woman in her bed, superimopsed over each other, until finally the woman in the highest-up image reaches through a mirror at the top of the card and starts going through, where her new and better self is waiting. The picture is hard to describe, but I feels like it captures the meaning of the card, as I see it, very well.

TemperanceAngel	13 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Dexter To understand that you cannot change what has happened before but that you now understand why it happened and are ready to let go. You are now ready to move on and accept (again that word ) judgement from a higher power to be bestowed with the gift of light and knowledge." Acceptance isn't always easy, is it. Dexter I really like what you have written here and it reminds me a lot on my thoughts on the Ten of Swords. I was wondering if you have ever linked these two cards together in some way?

TemperanceAngel	13 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark hi TA... I said my "aha" moment with Judgment was reading the words Release and Transformation. In a reading when I see Judgment the person is not in the process of changing but has already changed. And that change often times come with a release from an actual physical situation like an illness or divorce, ect.... And many, many times it has indicated an act of forgiveness. Either they are released by forgiving or by being forgiven. A complete change of mind or body and sometimes both. And it is often dramatic and sudden, and most important unexpected. Ahhh...forgiveness, another big word like acceptance. Both easy to say, but no so easy to do. I understand what you say with divorce as the example. I have seen the Judgement card many times floating around divorce. Not changing, but already changed...ok ok... *TA's mind is ticking over...* Judgement is sudden~ the trump of God can sound at any time and so you will be judged. But what else happens. You are transformed~ your body in the grave, meets your spirit, this spirit has been residing with God in heaven since you died and now you become one again. BUT!!! this is a new body unlike any you have experienced for it is incorruptable and can never die, feel pain, be hurt, ect, you have the spirit and body of God now. You are also judged~ for your deeds on earth.....in some religions the good go to heaven and the bad to hell. In others you are covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross and you are sinless in Gods site. You then go to enjoy the New Heaven and the New Earth, in your new body. Both ideas lend themselves to the idea of forgiveness in Judgment. When you go through the Judgement card you come out cleansed and forgiven, transformed and ready to start a new, fresh, chapter in you life. Thats why I believe it comes before the World card. In a sense to me, this all does sound like a bit of doom and gloom. You know it doesn't sound like the process is very easy, kinda like a snake shedding its skin = rebirth. Refreshed and cleansed...great key words. lark thank you for your post, I am happy that you have enjoyed your musings :) (And wondeful musings at that!)

TemperanceAngel	13 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by danubhe I find "Death" considerably more morbid! In my opinion, this card represents, on the Journey, a joyous summoning to Paradise. My musical "Judgement" key is from Peter Gabriel's "Passion: Sountrack to the Last Temptation of Christ" "It Is Accomplished", which is joyous bells ringing & I feel sums up the card very well. I, personally, don't find Death morbid. I like change. danubhe, I love the way you have connected a piece of music with the card. I haven't heard this piece of music, but now want to! It's a great example of how the Tarot doesn't just work on the visual senses, but on many other levels/senses as well :)

TemperanceAngel	13 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Luminessence I really like the Judgment card in the Ancestral Path Tarot - it shows several images if a woman in her bed, superimopsed over each other, until finally the woman in the highest-up image reaches through a mirror at the top of the card and starts going through, where her new and better self is waiting. The picture is hard to describe, but I feels like it captures the meaning of the card, as I see it, very well. Sounds wonderful, do you have a link?

WolfSpirit	14 Jul 2004
TA... here is a site that has all the cards of the Ancestral Path: http://www.bluecatsden.com/bluecat1.html Last year this time I was looking at them constantly until I had the deck myself :) Great thread BTW I have taken notes.

TemperanceAngel	14 Jul 2004
Thanks WolfSpirit for the great link, and I agree this thread is wonderful...thanks to everyone who has posted their great posts :D

lark	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel In a sense to me, this all does sound like a bit of doom and gloom. You know it doesn't sound like the process is very easy, kinda like a snake shedding its skin = rebirth. Refreshed and cleansed...great key words. lark thank you for your post, I am happy that you have enjoyed your musings :) (And wondeful musings at that!) LOL Yup there is alot of doom and gloom, guilt and retribution, with the Christian concept of Judgement. Makes it hard to get to the bottom of it. That's why I tend to like decks that depict it in a fresh way like Robin Wood's card. A woman coming out of a caldron of fire and ashes with the Phoenix behind her. No thoughts of the past that's been dealt with... symbolized by the fires of purification she stands in. Just reveling in her new body and spirit. This card always reminds me of the movie Cinderella. Judgement is the moment in that movie that Cinderella looks down at herself after her fairy godmother touches her with the wand thats turned her into a princess. She is changed and she knows it. Even when she's back in her rags the next day her wicked stepmother sees that change shinning through her. Chronata post puts alot of this beautifully. You know who these people are......and even some of us here have gone through Judgement. We've survived cancer, divorce, or the death of something or someone we love and it changes us. Some are bitter they haven't made it through the Judgement card...but others have, and it shows in the pool of calm that surrounds them, a luminescence about their person. They've chosen to make peace with the transformation of spirit and body that the fire of purification brought them. And even when they're back in their everyday clothes and their everyday lives, that transformation stays with them. Well now I've rambled on again...Sorry :|

Chronata	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark Well now I've rambled on again...Sorry :| It's ok! Please! Keep rambling!!! :D I absolutely love your takes on this card!

blackroseivy	15 Jul 2004
As a matter of fact, I have a whole list of pieces of music that I connect to every one of the majors - if you check in "deck creation", you'll find "All about my musical deck!" The most obscure is a pagan duo called The Moors who are no more... alas! But you can still get the album (magickal to the utter max!!!!!) from AzureGreen & Earthtone Studios (eponymous, just "The Moors"). Others are Enya, Loreena McKennitt, & even a U2 song -"The Chariot", "Where The Streets Have No Name". I have it all recorded 0-10 on one CD, 11-21 on another. It does great as reading music! All the music touches something magical to me, that's my criterion. I'm still working on the minors, I just want something for the court cards and a positive/negative couple of songs for each suit, a *lot* more doable than one for *every single card*! ;)

TemperanceAngel	16 Jul 2004
Thanks danuhbe!!!! *TA is off right now to check it out....* In between, of all of the 9 readings I did today you can be assured that Judgement came up for everyone....

Eco74	20 Jul 2004
To me this card, as for several others, is an indication of transition and transformation. Not an ending or a beginning, but rather the understanding of the past, finalisation, and subsequently an ability to move forward with full awareness into a new stage, having shed the past and yet keeping it safe in mind thus enabling the "transitor" to move with confidence into the new time in his or her life. If one has been bad, then there may well be doom, gloom and brimstone to "even out the score" but even this will lead to a greater understanding and liberation of the thing that caused the punishment. And if one has been good? Well, no doom, gloom or brimstone but rather happiness, contentment and a higher understanding of not only oneself but of the world aswell.

northsea	10 Aug 2004
I see Judgment as a clarion call (a wakeup call) signifying the moment when you become more aware (EUREKA!), moving up to a higher level of awareness. My favorite Judgment card is the Osho Zen with the butterfly rising above the unfolding lotus. (I don't see the final judgment and 10,000 virgins at the 'endtimes' because I think time is cyclic.)

SweetIsTheTruth	25 Aug 2004
I don't see Judgement as doom and gloom at all. This is the card of "a higher calling," which must be answered. Whatever situation existed previously has been dead for some time, we just haven't been able to see it. The preceding card, the Sun, cast light on everything, so that we could see how truly dead, pointless & tired certain situations were. Since we know now what situations are dead, we MUST move forward to the next level and answer the call. Answering the call brings us the World, so we MUST come up out of the grave of what was, and answer the call to the higher. The elemental attribution of this card is Fire, therefore action MUST be taken. You can't deny the call either. Sooner or later you WILL ACT to accept the higher calling. Notice that, when you accept the call, it doesn't pull only you up out of that grave, it brings all those with you forward as well. I LOVE this card, almost as much as the Tower. Oh, since Judgement is also Fire, I pay closer attention to any wands in the spread as well.

TemperanceAngel	25 Aug 2004
Interesting, where does the element Fire come from to be associated with Judgement?

SweetIsTheTruth	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel Interesting, where does the element Fire come from to be associated with Judgement? I don't know where the attribution began, but it was either with the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Kabballah, or one of a thousand other places. Judgement is fire. Hanged man is water. Fool is air. Correct me if I am wrong anyone.

TemperanceAngel	25 Aug 2004
I didn't think you were wrong, I was just interested what source that's from mainly because people use different sources, esp. here on AT :) Thanks for your thoughts, I have never thought of Judgement being Fire myself, in fact I never associated any element with it. It gives me sone new insight into the card.

jmd	25 Aug 2004
If one uses Wescott's correlations which made it into the Golden Dawn, then his letter attributions results in Shin being associated with, instead of XXI (the letter's ordinal value), Atout XX; in Mem associated with, instead of its ordinal XIII, with XII; and in Alef, instead of its ordinal and cardinal value of I, with the un-numbered Fool. In Kabalistic tradition (following one of the tradition's most authoritative text, the Sefer Yetzirah, Alef is connected with Air, Mem with Water, and Shin with Fire (these are also refered to as the three 'Mother letters'). Many allocate, contra Golden Dawn, the letters of the Hebrew alphabet according to the correlated ordinal value. In that sense, the first letter (Alef/Air) is connected with Atouts I - the Bateleur/Magician; the 13th letter (Mem/Water) with Atouts XIII; and the 21st letter (Shin/Fire) with Atouts XXI. Of course, as the Golden Dawn placed the un-numbered (and final card, according to some) Fool as first, the allocation of letters was differently considered - hence SweetIsTheTruth's allocation. With regards to Judgement, if one wants to make a Hebrew letter allocation, then one which could be considered is also the 20th letter: Kof. As to the card itself, I generally see it as a kind of spiritual awakening - or at least an awakening to what is at hand; a coming out of oneself; a meeting of one's call(ing), one's destiny.

SweetIsTheTruth	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel I didn't think you were wrong, I was just interested what source that's from mainly because people use different sources, esp. here on AT :) Thanks for your thoughts, I have never thought of Judgement being Fire myself, in fact I never associated any element with it. It gives me sone new insight into the card. I tracked it down. The fire attribute for the Judgement card came from Crowley, although in his system, he did rename Judgement to Aeon, as can be seen here: http://www.bluecatsden.com/t20aeon.html At the bottom of the card, if you look to the right of the card's title, "The Aeon," you will see the fire triangle.

jmd	25 Aug 2004
My previous post may have been too condensed... Crowley 'simply' used, as a basis, Wescott's Golden Dawn letter attributions (he of course also modified it by interchanging the GD's letter attributions for IIII and XVI). For what it's also worth, Wescott himself 'simply' used, but significantly modified (by altering the position of the Fool), the correlations he had been shown by E. Levi in the mid-19th century.

SweetIsTheTruth	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd My previous post may have been too condensed... Crowley 'simply' used, as a basis, Wescott's Golden Dawn letter attributions (he of course also modified it by interchanging the GD's letter attributions for IIII and XVI). For what it's also worth, Wescott himself 'simply' used, but significantly modified (by altering the position of the Fool), the correlations he had been shown by E. Levi in the mid-19th century. Well that explains one thing that never made sense to me. If the Empress was Venus, then it naturally follows that the Emperor should be Mars, but no, according to Crowley (and there are many other decks following his attributions these days) the Emperor is Aries, and the Tower is Mars. Seems like Crowley should have left that as it was - Emperor=Mars.

The Judgement: Doom and Gloom? thread was originally posted on 06 Jul 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.