Numbering of Justice and Strenth cards
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| kimmi_wyn |
25 Jul 2004 |
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Why (in some of the books I have looked at) are the Justice and Strength cards swapped? Strength as card #11 and Justice as card #8.
The explanations talk about the meaning of the number. But on the cards is the other number.
For example: Justice as card number eight, the text discusses the meaning for the number eight in relation to the card, but the example picture of the card clearly shows the roman numerals for 11.
If anyone could help it would be greatly appreciated.
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| jmd |
25 Jul 2004 |
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You'll find quite a number of posts and threads which discuss various aspects of these two most 'popular' numbering of these two cards.
In a small number of very early decks, variations occurs, and some very early decks are un-numbered.
Tarot tradition however tends to follow the mediaeval (and later) adaptation of connecting Justice and the number eight (this is outside Tarot, and is mentioned, for example, in Agrippa's Occult Philosophy).
The Marseille tradition follows this more general view, and thus Justice is thereon VIII, and Strength XI.
During the final years of the 19th century, Wescott, of the Order of the Golden Dawn, made particular astrological correlations he deemed apt (but not universally accepted). The Waite/Colman Smith (WCS) deck follows this alteration, and as numerous 20th century decks have taken the WCS as their model, follow suit.
The book you refer to probably therefore uses the numbering of what is possibly the predominant tradition (Justice VIII, Strength XI), but uses an image from the deck which has sold more than any other in Anglophonic countries, the WCS (under whatever title registered by its producer, US Games's being 'Rider-Waite').
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| kimmi_wyn |
26 Jul 2004 |
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thanks i understand more now
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| mercenary30 |
25 Aug 2004 |
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I have recently been reading the book 78 Degrees of Wisdom, and in there the author discussed an interesting theory for what the impact of the cards have to the overall flow depending on the order.
To summarize what she said…..
The major line up in three rows of seven….
Row one is essentially man and his life.
Row two is essentially man and his conscious/unconscious…….
When one has mastered societal life, than the meaning behind the Chariot has come true. But as has been proven by many, once that level of success has been attained, one usually starts to wonder if that is all, there has to be more to life. This starts the beginning of the search for something more, something inside or outside that gives meaning to individual life.
Here is where it got interesting. The book explained that if Justice follows the Chariot, than the same ego that drove you to your success in society, is pushing you to the next level and that makes it a conscious decision. Now if Strength follows the Chariot, than it is more like your driven from the inside, the unconscious you that brings about the state of yearning for something more meaningful in life and slowly builds to give you the strength to yet again step out of your comfort zone and possibly your Chariot of success into the unknown depths of the spiritual.
To me, this very much reminds me of the difference between western societies drive to succeed, evolve, and invent (Justice); and the eastern societies more passive acceptance of life, spirit, and natural growth (Strength).
I can’t seem to rectify that with the Golden Dawn’s changing of the order though. Hell, the whole reason GD even started was to try to keep alive Western occult practices and beliefs……..
Any thoughts on this?
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| jmd |
25 Aug 2004 |
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The nature of symbolic imagery is such that one may indeed discover various flows as differing orderings are made.
After all, this is precisely what is also done when faced with a reading: one reads the cards in a given altered sequence and allows for the allegorical story or meaning to unfold.
If one adopts the Golden Dawn variation, then indeed there comes a meaningful way (even outside of their astrological consideration) for the specific order to make its own sense over and above any other ordering. The same is true of their positioning the Fool before the Bateleur/Magician (this last suddenly makes of the ordered sequence an apparent 'Fool's Journey' he enters, rather than when placed last).
The three-fold layering of the cards, as depicted in Rachel Pollack's and other books, is but one of the ways in which the twenty-two Atouts have been presented in linked ways (partly) for the whole series to be not only simplified, but also for certain correlations to be allowed to unveil themselves. Again, the three rows are not the only accepted ones. Personally, I tend to prefer a pairing (I/XI, II/XII, III/XIII, IIII/XIIII, V/XV, VI/XVI, VII/XVII, X/XX, VIII/XVIII, VIIII/XVIIII, & the Fou/XXI).
In this sequence, I tend to also personally see that V, VI, & VII do indeed reflect aspect of societal or communal life - or, rather, soul qualities as they are reflected in community, whereas the previous cards tend to highlight more individual impulses (including the sense of clear thinking -IQ- and control for IIII; warm emotive appropriate mastery -EQ- for III; a sense for one's reflective aspects and inspirational listening for II; and active control of Will for I. Of course each of these also have social consequences).
When one reaches VIII Justice, there is an aspect to it which in some ways transcends social context, but rather guides, in ideal ways, how a society may benignly organise itself. Ie, its judicial and its political aspects need to reflect this higher more abstract (but none-the-less real) aspect.
The Strength of XI is both later, and, when paired as I have presented, earlier.
It is the inner Strength one utilises as the Wheel of Fortune brings forth towards oneself not only one's own personal destiny, but the destiny of others, the destiny of nations, and the destiny of myriad other spiritual forces at work in the ongoing unfoldment of the divine and secular world. Of course one needs both courage to meet it and remain true to oneself, but also that gentle inner strength guiding the wilful hand (manipulation) of the Bateleur/magician in engaging with the world.
Here, of course, I have provided no more than an alternative and perhaps equivalent reflection to the sequence forming the principal traditional order, with VIII as Justice, and XI as Strength.
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The Numbering of Justice and Strenth cards thread was originally posted on 25 Jul 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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