Ordering a Suit
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Fulgour |
07 Jul 2004 |
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I have begun putting my suits in the following order:
Ace King Queen Knight Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
It seems to have a good energy, and I was wondering
what others might think of this, as well as about various
methods used when ordering your suits.
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| Fulgour |
07 Jul 2004 |
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As that thread was :joke: "Aces - Help?" :joke:
and you seemed to want to discuss my views
on ordering a suit, I started this thread for you
and anyone who might want to focus on this.
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| Fulgour |
07 Jul 2004 |
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What if the Pips 2 - 10 were viewed
as fractions of the Ace?
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| Fulgour |
07 Jul 2004 |
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What if the Pips 2 - 10 (as fractions of the Ace)
were seen in their form as decimal equivalents?
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| Kahlie |
07 Jul 2004 |
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I'm going to be annoying and say I agree with both interpretations :)
The Ace being the lowest:
- The Seed
- A new beginning
- An oppertunity that can grow
- The Tools are there and ready to be used
The Ace being the highest:
- Energy on a higher plane
- Miracles
- Power
- Concentration
- Talents
Both of these interpretations of the Aces tie back to the Magician for me.
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| Fulgour |
07 Jul 2004 |
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I once allowed myself to briefly consider the Pips in the
following manner:
Ace =Absolute Maximum Total of Element
[courts refer to zodiac]
2 =1/2
3 =1/3
4 =1/4
5 =1/5
6 =1/6
7 =1/7
8 =1/8
9 =1/9
10 =1/10
And no, it never did really make any worthwhile sense,
but it was cool to just kind of brainstorm.
Then, strictly speaking, an Ace is not considered a Pip,
nor are the Court Cards. Pips are the cards 2 through 10,
and so have an oddly special relationship the the Aces, etc.
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| Diana |
07 Jul 2004 |
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It is funny isn't it, that one calls this card an Ace. And not a "one".
The word ace is of Latin etymology and it means "unit".
I'm not quite sure what this implies. But I am sure it implies something.
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| linabeet |
08 Jul 2004 |
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Aces are high or low in poker sometimes - it's your choice. I see them as the connection point in the circle of the suit, like the fool at the beginning and the end.
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| Fulgour |
08 Jul 2004 |
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Unity, Dignity, Rulership, Selfhood
In the Tarot an One is called an Ace, though it functions
numerically as an one. Ace is a good word though since
it literally means, an unity ~ in ancient times this would
be the single unit of a copper coin, but could also apply
to a beam or plank.
Aces in Tarot outrank any other card in their suit, so an Ace
is like the Monad of that suit, a singular metaphysical entity
~ the centre of the force of that element.
ACE King Queen Knight Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
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| kwaw |
08 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by Diana
It is funny isn't it, that one calls this card an Ace. And not a "one".
The word ace is of Latin etymology and it means "unit".
I'm not quite sure what this implies. But I am sure it implies something.
It puts them among the 21 unnumbered cards, aces, court cards and fool.
Kwaw
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| Fulgour |
08 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by kwaw
...the 21 unnumbered cards, aces, court cards and fool. 21 36 21 thus 78
How then shall we order the suits?
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| kwaw |
08 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by Fulgour
21 36 21 thus 78
How then shall we order the suits?
Not quite sure what you mean Fulgour, but in the thread 'Numbers, astrology and tarot' in the divination group I have linked it with planetary rulerships:
2-9 Cups = Venus [rules taurus 2 + libra 7 = 9];
2-9 Swords = Mars [rules aries 1 + scorpio 8 = 9];
2-9 Coins = Mercury [rules gemini 3 + virgo 6 = 9];
2-9 Staves = Lights [sun/moon] [ rules leo 5 + cancer 4 = 9];
Aces, Courts and Fool = Jupiter [rules sag 9 + pisces 12 = 21];
XXI Atu = Saturn [rules cap 10 + aq 11 = 21].
On top of this astrological 'structure' we also have the possibility of the cross reference among/within XXI atu to planetary exaltations, as already discussed elsewhere.
Kwaw
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| Fulgour |
08 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by kwaw
Not quite sure what you mean Fulgour, but in the thread 'Numbers, astrology and tarot' in the divination group I have linked it with planetary rulerships... Um, well. This is the thread in Using Tarot Cards called Ordering a Suit.
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| kwaw |
09 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by Fulgour
Um, well. This is the thread in Using Tarot Cards called Ordering a Suit.
Um, OK. Well I'm with Linabeet on this one:
quote
"I see them as the connection point in the circle of the suit, like the fool at the beginning and the end."
Kwaw
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| Fulgour |
09 Jul 2004 |
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Thanks, Kwaw.
The idea behind ordering a suit, is the same as putting
the entire deck in order. It's a static concept, a starting
point. Readers will sometimes cleanse their decks by
arranging them in their 'original' positions, all 78 just so.
Then when you shuffle, it's like beginning with a clean slate.
Also, it's an abstract way of viewing the relative energy
of all the cards, sort of like putting them highest to lowest.
If I were to cleanse one of my decks, for whatever reason,
the order would be:
First, The Magician, then all the way to 21, The World,
with The Fool being placed "last."
For the suits, I'd put them, Wands, Cups, Swords, Coins:
Ace King Queen Knight Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10.
So, in a purely acedemic sense, how would you order your suits?
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| linabeet |
10 Jul 2004 |
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[i]
So, in a purely acedemic sense, how would you order your suits? [/b]
I'd order them to do the dishes for starters....
I really do like to think of them all as cyclical, or spiralling. The Spiral theory is great - each time you come round to the sam number on the spiral it's the same but a little bit differnt, you've learned a bit more. There can be order to life but mostly it's snippits of chaos that never reflects the linearity we try to impose on it. Technically I put the aces first, Idealistcally I would set them in a circle, starting at the phase I was dealing with at the present. Realistically I never have time to put them in order cause I have to do the dishes.
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| Fulgour |
10 Jul 2004 |
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My wife and I play a game called "Aleph Tarot" with the
daily cards sent to us by that organization. It's just for fun,
and never disrespectful, but we did have to make up some
rules. The main question was of course, which card "tops"
the other? The Majors were easy, in their funny way, and
The Fool wins over 21 high. Suits are ranked by Fire, Water,
Air, Earth, Ace high, 10 low. The 9 of Cups is the wild card!
And yet what we learned was how we think about ranking.
Elemental Dignities are a big part of many people's interpreations.
So then what really would be the imaginery order of the cards,
who knows. But when it comes right down to it, there you are.
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| Emily |
10 Jul 2004 |
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This is an interesting thread - I've never thought of ordering my decks in any other order other than Ace through to ten, page, Knight, Queen, King. Although with decks like the Thoth I do place the Queen first above the Knight/King.
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| uXses |
14 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by Emily
This is an interesting thread - I've never thought of ordering my decks in any other order other than Ace through to ten, page, Knight, Queen, King. Although with decks like the Thoth I do place the Queen first above the Knight/King.
The book of Thoth orders them:
-Major : 0-21
-Court: Wands (Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess), Cups (...), Swords (...) , Disks(...)
-Minor: 1, 2, ... 10
(I'm conveniently forgetting that before the individual remarks on the minors, there are general remarks on them as a group: first all the aces, then the two, ...)
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| Emily |
14 Jul 2004 |
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Hi uXses,
I didn't realise that the Knight was before the Queen in The Book of Thoth - not sure where I've got my ordering from then but I always put the Thoth Queen first - must have read it somewhere online :)
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| DeLani |
14 Jul 2004 |
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Well, Fulgour, I've only been reading for about 18 yrs., and have probably done at least 1300 readings for clients other than myself, but I don't quite see how that would affect how I order the cards. But since you're asking: I do agree with the cyclical theory, that the Fool and the Aces are at once at the beginning and the end of each cycle. But for the purposes of ordering my deck, the Fool comes first in the Majors.
In the Minors, I place the Aces first, as the seed, as the number 1. The court cards are usually in the 'traditional' order: Page, Knight, Queen, King. But with the Thoth, I place them thusly: Prince, Princess, Knight, Queen - to reflect a more matrifocal system (being a feminist myself).
Of course, regardless of how many readings one has done, it will be up to the individuals belief system as to how they order the cards. And as you well know, people of many different belief systems can make equally good readers.
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| Fulgour |
14 Jul 2004 |
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We surely have more in common than otherwise.
My journey with the Tarot began in 1969, and while
I cannot account for all my readings, I have completed
1300+ at the Free ATA Networks as a volunteer.
I started this thread to interest people in looking
at something we all do, which is 'rank' the cards.
This is, as I said with sincere ernest, an abstraction.
It never really matters all that much in a reading.
But upon realizing that how I was doing it intuitively
differed from how I imagined it to be intellectually,
it came as a happy sort of surprise for me, and I smiled
inside at how I even ignore myself sometimes.
Words which I hadn't intended for this thread are:
always and never, good and bad, right and wrong.
Gracious allowances definitely provided for:
According to...
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| Rusty Neon |
14 Jul 2004 |
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I look at the Aces as potential or the pure expression of the energy of the suit. To my mind, you can't start a suit series with the Twos. Twos imply that there is a One consecutively before the Two and that One is, IMHO, the Ace.
Just my opinion, though.
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| Fulgour |
14 Jul 2004 |
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By the Suits, most of my decks have come factory pre-sorted,
but even the textbooks generally follow these orders:
King Queen Knight Page 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 Ace
or
Ace 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Page Knight Queen King
I can see the logic, even cherish the uniqueness of each.
But intuitively the way I feel the energy flow is:
Ace King Queen Knight Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
It's like a cosmic bridge, hovering in time and space...
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| September Pixie |
14 Jul 2004 |
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I am not sure why I am thinking in numbers so much lately (lol probably because working with music notes in the Vargo deck..) but I thought this might be relevant when I read Diana's post..
Originally posted by Diana
It is funny isn't it, that one calls this card an Ace. And not a "one".
A = 1
C = 3
E = 5
All odd numbers, all powerful in numerology.
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| September Pixie |
14 Jul 2004 |
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Oh! Oh! going a little further with my point...
1 - The Magician
3 - The Empress
5 - The Hierophant
Hmm...
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| Luminessence |
14 Jul 2004 |
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I have a definite way of doing it. When I put my decks back in order to cleanse them, I put the Major Arcana first, 0 to 21, then all the suits, each one starting with the Ace, then the cards 2-10, then Page, Knight, Queen, and King. The suits go in this order: first Swords, then Wands, then Cups, then Pentacles.
I know this thread is really just about putting a suit in order, but I thought I might as well describe my whole method while I was at it :)
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| jmd |
15 Jul 2004 |
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Fulgour brings another wonderful reflection here, and the order presented, beginning with the Ace, then the courts, and then continuing with two through to ten allows for the potential of the Ace to be given a chance to find its way into the series 2-10.
Here, then, is another means of seeing that same series... as pure energy, to be seeded by the King, housed by the Queen, formed by the Knight, and established or carried over by the Valet into its progressive expansion into 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and ten...
Wonderful reflection to add to the existing ones, Fulgour.
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| DeLani |
15 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by Luminessence
I have a definite way of doing it. When I put my decks back in order to cleanse them, I put the Major Arcana first, 0 to 21, then all the suits, each one starting with the Ace, then the cards 2-10, then Page, Knight, Queen, and King. The suits go in this order: first Swords, then Wands, then Cups, then Pentacles.
I know this thread is really just about putting a suit in order, but I thought I might as well describe my whole method while I was at it :)
Me too, Luminessence! I put the Majors first, as the 'suit' of the 'element' Akasha/spirit, as the Matrix or source of all else, then the suits in that order as if I was going around the sunwheel (in the more mainstream Wiccan system). In fact, when I'm ordering my cards (a rare event indeed), I sit facing north, and make like a cross with the suits - pentacles at the top, swords on the right, wands at the bottom, cups on the left, and majors in the middle.
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| Fulgour |
20 Jul 2004 |
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Originally posted by September Pixie
...I thought this might be relevant when I read Diana's post..
All odd numbers, all powerful in numerology. A=1= I The Magician
C=3= III The Empress
E=5= V The Hierophant
1+3+5= 9
I keep thinking of a comment on another thread about the 9 ermine
symbols on Camoin's VIII Justice card, where the book for them says
it reflects the energy of VIIII The Hermit... how very odd.
3+5=8 and 9-1=8
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| Fulgour |
22 Jul 2004 |
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a friend of mine wrote
On ordering the deck after a reading:
I have been using a printed copy of my own deck to read for others,
and put it in order after shuffling it for a reading. Before doing a
reading, I allow the other person to look through the deck. Having
the cards in order shows respect for the cards and the occasion,
allows the person to see the structure of the deck (especially if they
are unfamiliar with tarot), and gives a sense of sacred order where a
formal ritual would be unwelcome or inappropriate.
LBM
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| Shalott |
24 Jul 2004 |
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linabeet sez:
Aces are high or low in poker sometimes - it's your choice. I see them as the connection point in the circle of the suit, like the fool at the beginning and the end.
First thing that went through my head! How poker-y. When I first started learing minors, I'm like "Ace isn't the high card?" :D :D :D :D :D :D
Fulgour: check out this link (originally posted by Bameeny elsewhere) http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/PT/PT.html#minor
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| oceanpoetry |
25 Jul 2004 |
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This thread has been an interesting read! I think the Ace could go at top of deck or bottom of the deck, the start or the end of the journey. It is a powerful card. In black jack, Aces can be counted as either "1" or "11". To me Aces represent the power to make things happen!
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| Penelope |
30 Jul 2004 |
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I wonder how much thought goes into the way they get boxed?
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| Ravenswing |
04 Aug 2004 |
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Interesting things here. One as ace being unit-- the ancients didn't see one as a number in the way we do; it was more the impetus of number.
Ace as A C E as 1 + 3 + 5 = 9. numerologically speaking, 9 is a 0-- it doesn't change the value of a sum.
Considering the order of the cards as they would run down the tree of life, you might get:
Ace, 2, King, 3, Queen, 4, 5, 6, Knight, 7, 8, 0, 10, Page
or
Ace, King, 2, Queen, 3, 4, 5, Knight, 6, 7, 8, 9, page, 10
fly well
Raven
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| WebWeaver |
04 Aug 2004 |
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ok.. i never post on this site, but for some reason I was browsing.. I just started "learning" about the Tree of Life, and the correspondence between it and Tarot. The 2nd letter of the Hebrew alphabet is assigned to the card numbered one the Magician, so therefore the 2 become one. Two's are the beginning. I was reading the posts and thought... well if 2 is one for the Majors why can't 2 be the beginning in the Minors as well. As with most things esoteric, it's not a complete answer but one that adds to how we look at and study it.
WebWeaver
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| Fulgour |
04 Aug 2004 |
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Originally posted by WebWeaver
...therefore the 2 become one. Two's are the beginning. In terms of the way the sacred Triad is structured, I think we
are seeing 3 as the first number...
1>.....3.....<2
One cannot exist alone, or it is the same as zero, and two is a bridge
over to three: the reality of the difference between 1 and 2 is 3.
Kabbalah, as per the golden dawn, takes them out of the picture.
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The Ordering a Suit thread was originally posted on 07 Jul 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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