Similar Italian and U.S. Games meanings

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Cerulean	19 Jul 2004
I'd been meaning to look at a few sources to see if my minors meanings were similiar among some of my Italian decks and other English language source. There is a similarity of meanings from my booklets from various decks. Visconti (Il Menghello-Gabrielle Mandel 1994 (U.S. Games booklet, Stuart Kaplan 1974) Dotti (cards by Il Menghello/De Vecchi kit edition-Laura Tuan 1993/2003) Tarot Classic book - 1972 copyrighted hardback book that Stuart Kaplan wrote to accompany the redesigned Burdel designs (original Claude Burdel designs circa 1750) (as JMD calls reminds us, also known as FABRIQUE DE CARTES A SCHAFFHOUSE" meaning "Card factory in Schaffhouse." The initial M on the four of Coins stands for Muller - AGMuller is the Swiss publisher) I'm also going to check my Visconti Gold book from Lo Scarabeo and will post if the meanings are substantially different Regards, Cerulean

Cerulean	20 Jul 2004
English, U.S. Games booklet I'll add Lo Scarabeo Visconti Gold meanings later if someone else else doesn't post them... Ten through One 10-Home, abode, happiness joy, pleasure, peace, love RX: Loss of friendship, unhappiness, family quarrel 9-Success, maerial attainment, advantage, well-being RX: Mistakes, material loss. Imperfections 8-Discontinuance of effort, disappointment, abandonment of previous plans RX: Happiness. Effort continued until full success is attained 7-fantasy, unrealistic attitudes, imagination, daydreams RX:Desire. Determination. Strong willpower 6-memories. past influences, things that have vanished RX: The future, opportunities ahead 5-partial loss, regret, friendship without real feeling RX: Hopeful outlook, favorable expections 4- weariness. aversion, disgust, disappointment RX: new possibilities. new relationships 3-resolution of problem. conclusion, solace RX: Excessive pressures. Overabundance 2-love, friendship beginning or renewed RX: unsatisfactory love, false friendship 1-great abundance, fulfillment, perfection, joy, fertility RX:change, alteration, erosion. Feel free to post meanings if you have a U.S. Games, Italian deck booklet such as Lo Scarabeo or Dal Negro or perhaps other non-scenic pip book or booklet. If you have a website link, would it be possible to please copy, cut and paste a sample of a suit or the courts and give the name of the deck and publisher and copyright? I was hoping this would become a useful thread to potential and ongoing readers of such decks...

Fulgour	30 Jul 2004
Whenever I get a new deck, I usually just scan over the lwb to see if there are any unique notes pertinent to the deck. Often one can find useful information, unavailable elesewhere. On a side note, I've become an avid fan of your many fine and unselfish contributions to people the world over, far and wide: Cerulean's Amazon Reviews

Cerulean	30 Jul 2004
Thanks for kind comment! I was thinking of expanding the thread once I check out a few other sources: Paul Husan's meanings in his Mystical Origins of the Tarot James Revak's Villa Revak Mary Greers Tarot Reversals and a few tarot-based deck books/booklets: Visconti Gold (Lo Scarabeo) Tavaglione's decks--Stella, Stairs of Gold, Enoil Gavat Cartomanzia Italiano (the Italianesque Etteilla deck from Il Menghello) Laura Tuan's Egyptian Tarocco Lo Scarabeo's "Book of Thoth" (the Les Jeu des Dames with the Julia Orsini meanings) There may be a cross-current of similar meanings among these decks. I'll be checking the Cups first. A few of these decks are coming later this summer so it may not be September until I can add to this thread. It might assist those readers looking for fun tarots and wondering if the meanings are just too different for each deck to bother with pip-based designs.

Rusty Neon	20 Oct 2004
On the subject of numbered minor arcana, I understand that, for the most part, Lo Scarabeo decks use pre-GD Italian cartomancy/taromancy meanings but the overlap with RWS / Golden Dawn meanings is quite substantial. I note that that overlap appears to be more larger than the overlap between School of Etteilla and RWS/GD meanings. It would appear that different, yet quite similar, lists of divinatory meanings are used by LS from deck to deck. (Note however that, as Lee pointed out in a review of the LS Giotto Tarot at http://www.tarotpassages.com/Giotto-LB.htm, the LS Giotto deck uses card meanings from a 20th century French source.) Oftentimes, in the case of the court cards, we can see that traditional meanings employed by LS are similar to those of Etteilla's, which isn't surprising as Etteilla did draw on 'traditional' meanings. However, quaere to what extent, if any, the Italian cartomancy/taromancy meanings used by LS have been influenced by the imagery of the RWS deck. I'd like to know more about the origin and exact content of those various lists of meanings employed by LS. To the extent that those lists are truly pre-GD in terms of chronology, they would show how closely the GD, Waite PKT and RWS card meanings for the numbered minor arcana follow pre-GD sources other than School of Etteilla.

ihcoyc	21 Oct 2004
LS decks sometimes seem to draw on the idiosyncracies of the deck itself. I have the LS Tarot of the Master, and it gives a number of idiosyncratic meanings to the cards: * The Queen of Cups depicts a woman in a kitchen surrounded by food. She gets the DM "nourishment." * The 10 of Cups shows cups arrayed on a shelf. "Order" * The 9 of Wands is an organ, with a Latin motto dulce auditum, "sweet to hear." Its DM is "spell." * The Queen of Swords is Judith, with the head of Holofernes in a sack, and his headless corpse back in the tents. "Determination." The LS meanings given on the Classic Tarot are equally eccentric, IIRC, but I don't have that deck handy. There aren't many pictorial elements on that deck, so those DMs may in fact be traditional.

ihcoyc	23 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Cerulean Paul Husan's meanings in his Mystical Origins of the Tarot I have Huson's The Devil's Picturebook; it spends very little time on the minors, but the meanings it gives are rather different at places. Here are some of the more dramatically different ones: 2 Bâtons - novelty, turmoil, restlessness 4 Bâtons - standstill, family bond, demands of society, refuge 5 Bâtons - wealth and success 6 Bâtons - domesticity 7 Bâtons - skilful exchange of ideas, good communication 8 Bâtons - stability, understanding, a rural matter 9 Bâtons - delays 10 Bâtons - treachery, undermining influence, travel 5 Cups - inheritance, gift, something passed on 2 Swords - temporary amnesty 3 Swords - rupture, delay 7 Swords - hope 8 Swords - criticism 9 Swords - unmarried or unattached person; unseen complications or adversaries 5 Coins - "head ruled by heart", business loss through emotions 7 Coins - ardent pursuit of wealth, greed Some of these meanings seem to be old fortune telling meanings (a "rural matter?") They obviously differ from the RWS illustration meanings. Quite a few of them resemble my own meanings for unillustrated pip decks, which I generally get by applying qabalistic numerology to the suits and their elements. Like mine, his differ most strongly in Bâtons and Swords. I understand that Huson has a new book, and I'd be interested in seeing if any of these old meanings carry. This book is fairly old, from 1971, and is mostly a strongly paganizing take on the Tarot of Marseilles. The RWS tradition was not quite as dominant then as it is today.

The Similar Italian and U.S. Games meanings thread was originally posted on 19 Jul 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.