Suits as compass ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Aug 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

samantha	24 Aug 2004
I'm hoping that someone will be able to answer this one . Is is possible to get directions/locations from the 4 suits ? (or even the numbers come to that , for either the majors or minors. I'm thinking more along the lines of swords as , say (?) , representing North . A couple of times I have asked "where" questions of the cards. The location as depicted in the background has often turned out to be a useful guide ( The Queen of cups as advice had me choosing a home right next to the ocean ....and a good call it turned out to be !) but the picture itself isn't always of use . I'm sure that I need to look deeeper , either into numerology or some other facet of Tarot that I am unaware of . I'm really interested in finding out a "where" for the 5 of Swords . Any ideas , or links gratefully received.

Thirteen	24 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by samantha I'm thinking more along the lines of swords as , say (?) , representing North . Absolutely. You want to take a visit to the "stickies" up top of this forum and search Firemaiden's fantastic archives for "Aces." They're the ones that have not only direction, but time of year encoded in them. Only problem is, no one can quite *agree* on which direction or time of year. The most common view, however, is: Swords = East Wands = South Cups = West Pentacles = North So if you want to ask the cards, "Which direction?" remove the aces, shuffle and see which one you get. Warning: Directions subject to change with whims, instincts and position on the planet. Aussies may be more comfortable with opposite directions.

Fulgour	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by samantha I'm really interested in finding out a "where" for the 5 of Swords. The exact direction of the 5 of Swords is South-Southeast. And I can prove it.

samantha	25 Aug 2004
South , south east you say ??!! Now this is very very strange , because , from where I am now , this is the exact position where something new , and quite possibly life changing , has "begun" for me. Now , how did you arrive at that from the 5 of swords?

Fulgour	25 Aug 2004
The 32 point compass has as its points the directions: Cancer: NORTH Gemini: North northeast Taurus: East northeast Aries: EAST Pisces: East southeast Aquarius: South southeast Capricorn: SOUTH Sagittarius: South southwest Scorpio: West southwest Libra: WEST Virgo: West northwest Leo: North northwest (then back to North) Reciting this list is known as boxing the compass. It was considered to be one of the basic skills of an apprentice sailor to be able to recite correctly.

Fulgour	25 Aug 2004
The Zodiac Compass of the Astrological Lodge of London

Thirteen	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Aquarius: South southeast You explaination fails to mention WHY 5/swords is Aquarius. How did you reach that conclusion? Just curious. And are these position of the Zodiac stars or were these assigned some other way?

Ravenswing	25 Aug 2004
Fulgour-- Thank you for the compasses. I just wanted to know your thoughts on a bit of a modification on it. Rather than the signs in their 'natural' positions, let us consider the placement of houses for direction. The first house is east and so on round the circle. If we make a natal chart, might we consider the signs in the houses to make a personal compass. For example, since I have Virgo rising. I would, as a personal compass, have Virgo as my east point. Any thoughts? fly well Raven

Fulgour	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen You explaination fails to mention WHY 5/swords is Aquarius. Evidence suggests that the Chaldean Decanates have long been associated with cards 2 through 10 of the Tarot Minor Arcana. Certainly the Golden Dawn chose to include this information in their few odd notes on the subject of astrological attributes. The Chaldean Decanate System Aries: Queen of Wands and 2 3 4 of Wands Taurus: King of Pentacles and 5 6 7 of Pentacles Gemini: Knight of Swords and 8 9 10 of Swords Cancer: Queen of Cups and 2 3 4 of Cups Leo: King of Wands and 5 6 7 of Wands Virgo: Knight of Pentacles and 8 9 10 of Pentacles Libra: Queen of Swords and 2 3 4 of Swords Scorpio: King of Cups and 5 6 7 of Cups Sagittarius: Knight of Wands and 8 9 10 of Wands Capricorn: Queen of Pentacles and 2 3 4 of Pentacles Aquarius: King of Swords and 5 6 7 of Swords Pisces: Knight of Cups and 8 9 10 of Cups

Thirteen	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing For example, since I have Virgo rising. I would, as a personal compass, have Virgo as my east point. So you're putting the rising sign as the "true North"--in this case, "true East." But what would be the value of seeing the other directions of the other signs in that case?

Fulgour	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing Any thoughts? June 22, 1958 @ 12:00 Cancer (10th house) with Virgo Rising You might so want rather to focus upon your Sun and Mercury in Cancer, Moon in Virgo, Mars in Aries, and Venus in Taurus.

Ravenswing	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen So you're putting the rising sign as the "true North"--in this case, "true East." But what would be the value of seeing the other directions of the other signs in that case? Thirteen: This is my initial consideration. I'm certain there's more to be dug out of all this-- it seems to have a lot of potential in interlinking astrology and tarot... Well, from the astrological point of view, a natal chart lacks much unless the time of birth is known. This knowledge is needed to properly align the houses and signs. So, at least astrologically, there is great value in knowing the directions of the other signs. From the tarot point of view, let us first consider the 'standard' wheel which starts with Aries. The Two of Wands is associated with the first decante of Aries; Aries being the ruler of the first house. Now let's spin the wheel according to my birthday-- for simplicity's sake I'm placing Virgo exactly in the first house. The Eight of Pentacles is associated with the first decante of Virgo. If I super-impose my birthwheel on top of the 'standard' wheel, there will be 36 pairs of cards; one for each decante. In particular, the first decante of the first house is represented by the 2 of wands and the 8 of penticles. These pairs of cards may be considered to represent the difference between my view of reality and 'real' reality. Or some such designation. At the least, it'll make a great matching of cards for contemplation.... I hope this answers your question; at least somewhat. fly well Raven

jmd	25 Aug 2004
In connection with Golden Dawn derived work, I have likewise (as others too have) made mention of the decanate system of correlation moving sequentially through the decans with numbers two through to ten. The suit is then simply determined, in this method, by a two-step process of correlation, in which the sign indicates the element, and the element is then used to indicate the suit to which one has already determined a correlation. Depending on how long 'long' is, I do not agree with Fulgour when he states that 'the Chaldean Decanates have long been associated with cards 2 through 10 of the Tarot Minor Arcana'. Certainly, the correlations is a particular way of making correlations - but also certainly, not one which I personally favour. Notwithstanding that it is not my personal preference for pip attributions, I have attached a modified wheel as per the one presented by Fulgour, showing the sequential numbers of 2-10 placed repeatedly around the wheel, beginning at the marked position (first decan/10 degrees Aries) and moving sequentially following the arrow. One can see from this that, for example, the fives occur in the first decans of the fixed signs of the zodiac in this method. IF one makes a connection between swords and Fire, then the five of Swords will be in Leo. If one connects swords and Air, in Aquarius; Swords and Water, in Scorpio; and if one connects Swords and Earth, in Taurus. In the above mention by Fulgour, the sequence of allocations/correlations is: 1 - for Swords to be allocated the element of Air (which is not universally accepted - many of us preferring alternatives); 2 - for the numbers to be accepted as listed around the sequence, Aces excluded; and 3 - for the relevant direction as per compass point with regards 0 degrees Aries at the Northern Vernal (Spring) equinox to be used (as is considered, in any case, 'standard'). With regards to Thirteen's directional allocations, these are, as mentioned, relatively common, based on correlations made as one 'works a magical circle' - but again with certain assumptions not generally accepted between elemental and suit/implement correlations (whether within the Pagan/Wiccan or Ceremonial magical traditions). Therein, the East is generally allocated the element of Air (but which suit is that? Many prefer Air to Bastons/Staffs); the West to Water (but again, which suit? Some prefer to allocate Swords to Water, as in the Spanish 'Esoterico' deck); and North and South to respectively, Earth and Fire if in the northern hemisphere, and, again respectively, Fire and Earth if in the Southern (our north is our position of heat, and our south our nearest pole and place of darkness and cold). Even if one adopts the cardinal points of the compass according to a 'simple' suit preference, another option is for the following (I leave the element/suit correlation to each's preferred model - though I have my own): using a tetractial form for each suit, a ninety-degree span is depicted. The direction will of course depend on one's ordering of the tetractys (I have included four tetracti-outlines in the attachment, though would have each as right-angled triangles for the purposes described). Just some simple additions... actually far simpler than the written word conveys :)

Rusty Neon	25 Aug 2004
[please delete]

Fulgour	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing Well, from the astrological point of view, a natal chart lacks much unless the time of birth is known. This knowledge is needed to properly align the houses and signs. Virgo rising, on any June 22nd, is around 12:00 noon... but I guess you're not pleased with my answer to your question? Oh well... :(

Fulgour	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Just some simple additions... actually far simpler than the written word conveys. I'd like to try and answer some of you very good remarks, but where to begin? Your post is so long, and covers so much ground, that I'd feel disrespectful simply picking one aspect of it by itself... Help me out ~ what makes you tick here? We may be on a roll!

Fulgour	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen You explaination fails to mention WHY 5/swords is Aquarius. How did you reach that conclusion? Just curious. And are these position of the Zodiac stars or were these assigned some other way? You asked me four questions. Have I explained myself sufficiently, or are you still waiting? Also, what is a "Zodiac star"? :)

Rusty Neon	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Evidence suggests that the Chaldean Decanates have long been associated with cards 2 through 10 of the Tarot Minor Arcana. What evidence is there (of such an association prior to Mathers/the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn)?

Fulgour	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon What evidence is there (prior to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn)? None, but that's always been the case.

Ravenswing	01 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Virgo rising, on any June 22nd, is around 12:00 noon... but I guess you're not pleased with my answer to your question? Oh well... :( Fulgour-- It's not that your answer doesn't please me. I appreciate that you took the time to look up my birthday and plot it out. This was quite unexpected. Perhaps it is that I wasn't very clear. I was wondering what your thoughts might be (if you considered my ramblings) on the idea of superimposing the 'natural' position of the zodiacial wheel on the position of a natal chart. My question is what would you consider the pairs of cards created by this superimposition to represent (if anything at all...)? fly well Raven

Fulgour	01 Sep 2004
Ravenswings's Houses Natal aligned to Natural: Virgo ~ Aries Libra ~ Taurus Scorpio ~ Gemini Sagittarius ~ Cancer Capricorn ~ Leo Aquarius ~ Virgo Pisces ~ Libra Aries ~ Scorpio Taurus ~ Sagittarius Gemini ~ Capricorn Cancer ~ Aquarius Leo ~ Pisces Once again, figure prominently, but: Dear Ravenswing, I cannot help but feel you have 3 main aspects: Cancer in the 10th house with Virgo ascendant, it's... beatific! fly well! Fulgour

Fulgour	01 Sep 2004
Fulgour's Tarot Cards for Venus and Mars: Venus (3 The Empress) exalted in Pisces (19 The Sun) Mars (4 The Emperor) exalted in Capricorn (16 The Tower) Cancer is 8 Justice Virgo is 10 The Wheel of Fortune and the 10th House would be Capricorn, 16 The Tower. ___________________________ XVI. Le Maison Dieu (The Tower) Vision, Insight Most books on Tarot will have a very insightful paragraph on this card, mostly about the obvious implications of the image ~ a lightning bolt striking a tower. Still, there comes a time when we have to ask ourselves, what does this card really mean? As card number XVI it corresponds with the 16th letter of the Phoenician alphabet: Ayin. Ayin has the literal meanings of Eye and Fountain, which both appear on the medieval cards, and Ayin is astrologically associated with the 10th solar month/house, now called Capricorn. This is when the old year ends and the new one begins, an annual time of joyful celebration. But like the expression, the king is dead ~ long live the king, it is also a time of reckoning. Time, which flows like a fountain, may be seen to be both passing on and being renewed. Consider all you have seen and come to know, and then envision the future you would ideally desire ~ there is the direction in which to begin to allow your life to flow forward.

Thirteen	01 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour You asked me four questions. Have I explained myself sufficiently, or are you still waiting? Also, what is a "Zodiac star"? :) Sorry not to get back to you sooner. Sometimes when I come here I get caught up in some other thread and forget to check older threads that have sunk down the line. What I meant was, are the compass points relating to Zodiac signs as they appear in the SKY, at night. The stars in the sky. Are these their real directions (Cancer to the North, for example). Because if we were using a magical system, Cancer would probably be to the South (the direction of Fire very generally speaking) because it is a summer sign or to the West (the direction of water very generally speaking) because it is a water sign. Just trying to figure out how it ends up being North. It is just it's placement on the wheel, or it is related to real stars in the sky that sailors follow?

Fulgour	01 Sep 2004
Geographically speaking: The "tropics" are based on the Sun's position in relation to the Earth at two points of the year. The Tropic of Cancer is located at 23.5° North of the equator and runs through Mexico, the Bahamas, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, India, and southern China. The Tropic of Capricorn lies at 23.5° South of the equator and runs through Australia, Chile, southern Brazil, and northern South Africa. The Tropic of Cancer and The Tropic of Capricorn

Fulgour	01 Sep 2004
Zodiac Signs versus Constellations Ptolemy clearly laid the signs versus constellations question to rest. "The beginning of the whole zodiacal circle," he recorded, "is therefore assumed to be the sign of Aries, which commences at the vernal equinox." Just to make sure even the astronomers wouldn't miss it, Ptolemy repeats the point: " The beginnings of the signs," he wrote, "are to be taken from the equinoctial and tropical points." _________________________________ Cancer [lat.,=the crab], in astronomy, constellation lying on the ecliptic (the sun's apparent path through the heavens) between Gemini and Leo; it is a constellation of the zodiac. It contains the star cluster Praesepe, but no bright stars. The tropic of Cancer takes its name from this constellation, in which the summer solstice was located about 2,000 years ago. Now, because of the precession of the equinoxes, the summer solstice has moved westward into the constellation Gemini. Cancer reaches its highest point in the evening sky in March. Capricornus [lat.,=the goat horn], inconspicuous southern constellation lying on the ecliptic (the sun's apparent path through the heavens) between Sagittarius and Aquarius; it is one of the constellations of the zodiac. Known as the Sea Goat, it has been depicted from earliest times either as a goat or as a figure with its forepart like that of a goat and its hind part like the tail of a fish. The tropic of Capricorn takes its name from this constellation, in which the winter solstice was located about 2,000 years ago. Now, because of the precession of the equinoxes, the winter solstice has moved westward into Sagittarius. Capricornus contains a globular star cluster that can be seen on a very clear night. The constellation reaches its highest point in the evening sky in late September. from: Constellations The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2004, Columbia University Press.

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon What evidence is there (of such an association prior to Mathers/the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn)? Where do you suppose they got it, since since according to Fra. P. in Book "T" : "HERE follow the descriptions of the smaller cards of the four suits, thirty-six in number, answering unto the thirty-six Decans of the Zodiac." Liber LXXVIII :: FRA. P.

Rusty Neon	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Where do you suppose they got it, since since according to Fra. P. in Book "T" : "HERE follow the descriptions of the smaller cards of the four suits, thirty-six in number, answering unto the thirty-six Decans of the Zodiac." Liber LXXVIII :: FRA. P. My view is that, looking at the words of your quoted passage from the HOGD's Book T, "answering unto" means essentially the same thing as "corresponding to" or "corresponding with". In the absence of evidence of the one-to-one association, prior to HOGD/Mathers/Westcott, of the 36 cards consisting of 2 to 10 of each suit of the tarot minor arcana with the 36 Chaldean decans of the Zodiac, I am of the view that the HOGD was the first to make such an association. However, I am certainly open to any evidence of any earlier instances (i.e., pre-HOGD/Mathers/Westcott) of such an association that anyone may adduce. It certainly would be cool to learn of any such earlier instances!

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
Sorry, that's what I read it to mean, "answering unto" as in "as is well known." There was the work of Papus (which we've discussed elsewhere) and I know of several works by our friend Oswald Wirth, copies of which may be found on-line, but in French.

Rusty Neon	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Sorry, that's what I read it to mean, "answering unto" as in "as is well known." There was the work of Papus (which we've discussed elsewhere) and I know of several works by our friend Oswald Wirth, copies of which may be found on-line, but in French. "Answering unto" or "answering to" means "corresponding to/with". The real issue, though, is whether there is any evidence of use (of the 36 cards consisting of 2 to 10 of each suit / 36 decans one-to-one association) prior to HOGD/Mathers/Westcott. In the discussion elsewhere that you note, I mentioned Etteilla's and Papus' associations. There are 40 numbered cards (Ace to Ten of each suit) and but only 36 available Chaldean decans for one-to-one associations with numbered cards. The HOGD assigned the 36 cards consisting of 2 to 10 of each suit with the 36 Chaldean decans. Papus and Etteilla assigned the 36 cards consisting of Ace to 9 of each suit with the 36 Chalden decans. It's true that Papus assigned 10 of each suit as a transition / epagomene between triples of decans, this doesn't detract from the fact that Papus' one-to-one correspondences of the 36 decans are with the 36 cards consisting of Ace to 9 of each suit; and, it should be noted that, under Papus' system, the first decan of the 36 decans was assigned to an Ace rather than a Deuce and the second decan was assigned to a Deuce rather than a Three and so on. Thus, I'd still be interested in learning of any other group/person who, prior to HOGD/Mathers/Westcott made one-to-one associations between the 36 cards consisting of 2 to 10 of each suit and the 36 Chalden decans. (As regards Wirth, as far as I know, Wirth did astrological correspondences for the major arcana but not for the minor arcana; but, anyone, please correct me if this isn't right.)

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon (As regards Wirth, as far as I know, Wirth did astrological correspondences for the major arcana but not for the minor arcana; but, anyone, please correct me if this isn't right.) Now we're really straying from the thread, but you of course realise Oswald Wirth (given his brilliant mind) was conversant in the various more common associations, for both the Major and Minor arcana... and especially with regard to stellar combinations.

Rusty Neon	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Now we're really straying from the thread, but you of course realise Oswald Wirth (given his brilliant mind) was conversant in the various more common associations, for both the Major and Minor arcana... and especially with regard to stellar combinations . You had cited Wirth as support on the question of minor arcana, but I haven't seen anything published by Wirth on associations of the Chaldean decans (or other astrological associations) with the minor arcana. So far, no evidence has been adduced on this thread as to the existence of any pre-GD/Mathers/Westcott one-to-one association of the 36 cards consisting of 2 to 10 of each suit with the 36 Chaldean decans.

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
L'essentiel du tarot : Tarot de Marseille - Tarot Oswald Wirth de Colette Silvestre-Haéberlé Présentation de l'éditeur Une présentation très accessible et complète des Tarots de Marseille et de Wirth. Le livre présente les 22 arcanes majeurs et les 56 arcanes mineurs, leur symbolisme, les correspondances, les influences numériques et astrologiques, et les 462 associations de lames majeures. Sont étudiés ensuite neuf modes de tirage, avec exemples, dont certains font intervenir les lames mineures.

Rusty Neon	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour L'essentiel du tarot : Tarot de Marseille - Tarot Oswald Wirth de Colette Silvestre-Haéberlé Présentation de l'éditeur Une présentation très accessible et complète des Tarots de Marseille et de Wirth. Le livre présente les 22 arcanes majeurs et les 56 arcanes mineurs, leur symbolisme, les correspondances, les influences numériques et astrologiques, et les 462 associations de lames majeures. Sont étudiés ensuite neuf modes de tirage, avec exemples, dont certains font intervenir les lames mineures. That's not a description of a book by Wirth. That is a description of Collette Silvestre-Haéberlé's book. Wirth never drew any minor arcana nor write any specifications for a minor arcana. Wirth did not discuss minor arcana in any significant way (and if he did, it would have been only in passing) in his book _Le Tarot des imagiers du Moyen-Âge_. If Collette's book has any discussion on the 56 minor arcana's symbolism, quaere as to whether that is on the US Games Oswald Wirth Tarot Deck minor arcana. The US Games deck's minor arcana were drawn by someone else, who did so not at the direction of Wirth. Wirth did not draw, nor write any specifications for, a minor arcana. If Collette expresses any views in any substantial way on the minor arcana, such views would not be drawn from works of Wirth. So far in this thread, no evidence has been adduced of pre-HOGD/Mathers/Westcott one-to-one associations between the 36 cards consisting of 2 to 10 of each suit with the 36 Chaldean decans.

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
I was afraid of something like that... I'll keep looking!

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
The enigmatic Melancholia is one of Dürer's most studied works. The meaning behind the symbolism contained in this print has aroused endless speculation. "For Madmen Only" So, long before the fevered meglomania of the golden dawn magi there was a connection made between cards 2 through 10 and the 36 decans of the ancient Chaldeans. Here shown by Master Dürer himself, although it helps to be open minded about these things. "Illuminated" :rolleyes: __________________

Rusty Neon	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour The enigmatic Melancholia is one of Dürer's most studied works. The meaning behind the symbolism contained in this print has aroused endless speculation. "For Madmen Only" So, long before the fevered meglomania of the golden dawn magi there was a connection made between cards 2 through 10 and the 36 decans of the ancient Chaldeans. Here shown by Master Dürer himself, although it helps to be open minded about these things. "Illuminated" How does this post of yours above prove your assertion that there was a connection made before the Golden Dawn between cards 2 through 10 and the 36 Chaldean decans? Fulgour, there's no shame in admitting that this connection isn't pre-Golden Dawn.

Fulgour	04 Sep 2004
What am I trying to say... :rolleyes: _____ Support your local library system.

Penelope	04 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon How does this post of yours above prove your assertion that there was a connection made before the Golden Dawn between cards 2 through 10 and the 36 Chaldean decans? 36 Pips 2 through 10 36 Chaldean Decans I wonder who raised their hand at one of the oldean Golden Dawn meetings and said, "Hey, guess what!?" I'll bet it was a sweet old lady nobody ever heard of. :TQW

Rusty Neon	04 Sep 2004
*

Penelope	04 Sep 2004
Fulgour has said he enjoyed reading Mark Twain as a boy. Hmm? :TQW

Penelope	04 Sep 2004
Now, in fact, I've begun Tom Sawyer ~ for the first time! :TQW

Diana	04 Sep 2004
Lucky we have the editing function, so that we can edit things we put in the wrong way. I missed Rusty's original post so I don't know the context of the "Tarot doctrine" that Penelope mentions. But of course, Tarot is related to doctrine. The original meaning of Doctrine was "Teaching" and "Instruction." Its modern meaning, the first ones that most dictionaires give is: "something that is taught". Tarot is a great teacher. A wise and ancient teacher. There is plenty of Instruction and Teaching in the Tarot. More than enough for one human lifetime.

The Suits as compass ? thread was originally posted on 24 Aug 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.