Ancestral Path Justice--help !

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

magpie9	13 Sep 2004
Can anyone help me with the symbolism on the "Justice" card from the Ancestral Path deck? I really like this deck but this one card is absolutely stumping me ! I can't figure out what that black thing (snake? sea monster? ) wrapping around her legs are, let alone its significance. then there's the dropped scales and the broken tablets of the law, and all in all it looks like a very bad day. (High Priestess with a migraine, perhaps?)The LWB gives a standard sort of Justice bit, not a lot of help. I don't have the companion book, so----------------?

Fulgour	13 Sep 2004
Images from The Ancestral Path Tarot by Julie Cuccia-Watts: http://www.wicce.com/Ancestral.jpg VIII Justice

Thirteen	13 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 I can't figure out what that black thing (snake? sea monster? ) wrapping around her legs are, let alone its significance. then there's the dropped scales and the broken tablets of the law Okay, let's clarify. You have a woman seated on a stone throne between a black and white pillar. A sword rests across/above her knees. A veil is draped over her eyes (no confusion there, right? The old "Justice is blind" mantra). Etched into the throne are two symbols, a yin-yang and the sign for Libra. So far so good? She holds a stone in each hand. At her feet are a pair of scales (the feather of Maat, Truth, in one dish), law tablets (Ten Commandment style) and a tree stump. Now here's the tricky thing--if you look carefully you'll see that SHE is the TREE. Yes, that stump rises up to form her legs (which are draped with a cloth) and next we see it, it forms her shirt/chest out of which come her hands. She holds a stone in each hand. Greenery from that upper shirt part grows down from her arms to cover either pillar, while a root/vine from the tablets wraps noose-like about the trunk ( I don't know why the descripton says its about her neck!). What are we to make of this? Well, first, as mentiond in the description below, that she's lifted those two stones out of the scales and she's weighing them in her own hands. The scales aren't good enough. She must take matters into her own hands. Second, that the scales resting by her "foot" on one side are balanced out by the law tablets on the other side. HOWEVER the LAW (tablets) are a noose about her. We see this in court houses. A judge may not think the Law fair but he's constrained to follow it. So the tablets there have a hold on her. However just she may want her decision to be, she must consider the Law--which isn't always fair. So we begin to get this idea of Justice. Justice weighs fairness, balance against the law. Justice tries to serve both. Justice, like the High Priestess, is between the two pillars. But unlike the High Priestess she is rooted there. She isn't merely "trapped" there, but rather grows right out of the center, her foliage enbracing both sides. Being the Tree she also represents the Tree of Life (Qabalaistically), which reaches out its branches in all directions. You might say that while she remains rooted to one spot, she nevertheless is able to gather all information from all directions. This comes back to her to be weighed, like the stones in her hands, and brough to balance. Justice is all about adjustment--giving, taking, re-arranging so that the world remains, like Justice there, centered. A solid tree on a solid throne. Going nowhere, absolutely stable and and balanced. Does that help?

BlueLotus	13 Sep 2004
Magpie, this is from - - in regards to your query I quote from pages 31-32 : VIII JUSTICE Description: A blindfolded woman sits on a worn marble throne. This goddess-figure of Blind Justice feels her verdicts, taking up matters in her own two hands. Behind her appear the pilllars of duality, in muted colors similar to those in the Hierophant trump (indicating that true justice is not a black-and-white, cut-and-dried process-- its varied components weigh differently in individual applications of justice). The throne is cracked in several places. the Libra zodiac sign (an icon of the handle of the scales of justice) and the Chinese yin-yang symbol of wholeness are etched above her head. Justice discards the tradtitional accouterments of her trump (sword and scales) as well as those of human justice (symbolized by the Tablets of Law at her feet). The ostrich feather of Ma'at, weighed against the soul in the Egyptian Hall of Judgment, rests in one pan of the Scales. She holds two rocks (retrieved from the pans of the discarded scales) in order to be in touch with issues brought before her. She also balances them to center (earth) herself so that she can effect justice. The serpent of wisdom winds about her legs, lending support ot her decisions, as well as binding her to the seat of justice; the double-edged sword resting on the arms of the throne is another shackel. A vine pushes through the tablets on the floor, lacing the pillars, and forms a noose around her neck.. This noose imagery also appears on older Tarot decks, where the braided hair of the Justice angel wraps around her neck There are some detailed information for this card regarding cultural images, meanings, numerology, and trump correspondences. Let me know if you need more details from this book.

Fulgour	13 Sep 2004
Libra's glyph inclines somewhat to our right, and we see that the Scales (on the right) are pictured to appear lower than the Tablets (on the left). The Sword tilts to the right, also the direction that the blade end is pointing. And, veil or no ~ this does not appear to be a 'blind justice' image. The rocks she is holding are in her control, not that of gravity. I think she is even raising the one in her Left hand (our right) just a bit, as if to ask, "This one?" The answer likely differs from any hopeful expectations. Her 'decision' will be publicly formal, witnessed by all, but the Truth is already known. The black snake may be inclined toward another outcome...

Fulgour	13 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Being the Tree she also represents the Tree of Life (Qabalaistically), which reaches out its branches in all directions. When pictured, the Kabbalah Tree of Life depicts the "roots" to the top. The branches spread out below ~ because that's a conceptual necessity.

Thirteen	13 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour When pictured, the Kabbalah Tree of Life depicts the "roots" to the top. The branches spread out below ~ because that's a conceptual necessity. Yes, I know that, but turning her upside down as an image would make her even more confusing. We can PRESUME that her ROOTS reach Quabalistically toward the source, the Crown, the divine source from which all Justice springs. And my assumption about the LEAVES was that they reached out across the Earth, the "Foundation" part of the tree, gathering the information required, the evidence. Take note, however, that these leaves are also down near the roots, over scales and tablets. Justice can send her branches where she wills to gather what information she requires t make a decision. As for the "blind justice" aspect, blind doesn't mean blind--it means that she doesn't make snap judgements, assumptions based on what she sees. Her eyes are shaded, covered so that her decision is based on what she learns and knows. The stones in her hands, for example. One may look larger and heavier, but only by holding them can she know if the larger one really is the heavier one. Or if they're equal in weight no matter what they look like.

Moongold	13 Sep 2004
Another quite interesting thing is that this Justice is VIII not XI as in some other RWS clones. I personally love the image of Justice being "rooted" to the ground. For me that implies the necessity of justice and balance in the current, earthly life. The karmic link comes with the assocation with XVII Star. I love the way the foliage from the Tree of Justice entwines both pillars. That symbolizes the importance of the small things in our everyday lives. I sometimes think that it is those small and seemingly petty things that cut the deepest, that end up being the most important.

Fulgour	13 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 Can anyone help me with the symbolism on the "Justice" card from the Ancestral Path deck? From: Julie Cuccia-Watts Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 Subject: VIII Justice Ancestral Path Hi Peter, I am happy to respond to your questions about Ancestral Path's Justice. I am not a list member at Aeclectic so I doubt I could get in to even discuss this. I will just respond to you and you can forward my response. It has been a long time since I even thought about Justice from the Ancestral Path...Basically she has set aside the usual tools of Justice. She has set down the scales of justice, the tablets of (man made) LAW, and set the sword of truth across her lap. She has taken the situation (represented by two rocks) into her own hands and will weigh the truth by her own heart. The snake wrapping around her legs represents the truth of the ancient earth goddess which she has grounded herself with. Hope that helps. Julie :OL

Thirteen	13 Sep 2004
Okay so that's the Snake not the vine. But where's the head of the snake? And where is that "noose" about her neck?

magpie9	13 Sep 2004
Jeez, guys- First of all, I am so impressed and astounded at the number and depth of the replies to my question. a HUGE thank you to you all! And Fulgour,--to contact the artist WOW !! I would never have thought of doing that. :* Please tell her Thank You for me. Thirteen, I was particulary intrigued by your statement : "However just she may want her decision to be, she must consider the Law--which isn't always fair." It seems to me, after reading all this posting that she has tossed the law, as well as the scales in order to be fair in a deeper way than man-made law can ever be. I'm not entirely sure what putting the scales aside might mean, other than to take matters in lher own hands...Julia says to weigh the matter against her own heart, which I would think would be even more precise than the feather of Maat. I love the idea that she is the tree. Justice rooted to the wisdom of the earth just knocks me out :) I'm also relly delighted with the concept that the foliage can go anywhere, gathering information and evidence. The Qabbalistic Tree of Life is not something I have gotten familiar with, beyound a general idea without depth. It's on my list, to try it again someday. I attribute it to that my first-ever tarot book (back in the caves) was Sacred Tarot by C.C. ZAIN. I bought it because there was not much selection available and it certainly looked like it knew everything. Very very dense to read as it presumed you knew something about Brotherhood of Light, Astrology,Hermatic philosophy, numerology, and the idea of Kaballah connecting to the tarot. all I knew was that I really liked where I could go when I looked at the pretty pictures on the cards......and the things I said made sense to other people. Fulgour, why do you think "the snake may be inclined towards another outcome"? I don't get that at all... Feebie--thank you for the exerpt from the book, very clarifying for me. I should have gotten the book in the first place but o well. Now I'll have to hunt it up used somewhere, as I do have other questions about this deck. The darn deck turns out to be so full of depth and symbolism that I need a lot more information about it than I have. :D I took it for an interesting RWS clone, and it's really not. In the exerpt from the book it says: "...the double-edged sword resting on the arms of the throne is another shackel." to my mind, the sword wuld be a symbol of TRUTH, so I have a hard time seeing it as a shakel..............does this statement compute for anybody? the book also refers to the foliage as a vine, but I like the image of it as "foliage from the Tree of Justice" as Moongold puts it. I too believe that the small things in ourt everyday life are tremendously important---they are the day by day on-going proof of who we are, and what we really believe. It is shown in our daily practice, not our (perhaps lofty) ideas about ourselves. I do see the head of the snake down by her ankles (if she had them) lying on the white drapery, but I don't see the noose, either. She does have what I took to be long locks of hair coming down on both sides of her neck. could it be a rope..? You all have made this card so much clearer for me...I'm seeing it and likeing it in a whole new way. BUT I don't want to kill this thread by my long reply...

Fulgour	13 Sep 2004
I wrote to Julie this morning at half past eleven. Julie's reply came at just before twelve noon. ____________________ ____________________ Fulgour

magpie9	13 Sep 2004
WOOOO!! WAY COOL!!!!

Fulgour	13 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 WOOOO!! WAY COOL!!!! That's exactly the way I felt! ...and hey, magpie9 ~ t'was my pleasure, glad ya liked it.

Ace	13 Sep 2004
Thanks, Fulgour, for getting the Word from the "horse's mouth" so to speak, I am sure JC-W was glad to here about her deck. However, I still have my own opinions about the AP Justice. I see it as a "backward" meaning card, as I do with the 4 of Pentacles in the WorldTree, it means the opposite of other Justices. I see it as trying so hard to be "FAIR" you can get lock up. Balance is so precarious, that Justice isn't working at all. Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself, to listen to your gut feeling, or you start to take root and get pinned down. Being "fair" doesn't get anything accomplished! It is interesting that is it a snake, not a tree root (Like I always thought it was!) that "grounds" the person deciding. but he is still weighing two identical things (ROCKS?, who cares about ROCKS?!?) and must (as JC-W says) finally use ones own intuition to decide. my 2 cents!

magpie9	13 Sep 2004
That's very interesting, Ace. When I first got the deck I had the same impression of Justice that you did--that it was showing the "downside." But after a while that didn't feel right to me, in useing the deck. I think that a large part of that (other than 'I'm soooooo physic :D) is that the deck is overall positive. It's not giddy fluffy bunnies on helium, but it's not a dark deck, and that view of Justice seemed pretty grim to me. I mean, she really does look pretty nailed down, and holding rocks dosen't improve it. Which is why I went looking for some explanation for the symbolism. I didn't expect exerpts from the book, let alone fulgours' having contacted Julia for an explanation and GETTING One, all before I crawled out of bed at noon.!! In her reply the artist dosen't say why she used rocks. But I have to say that rocks can be important. Ask the de Beers diamond people. :D and consider what a few moon rocks have cost us in time energy, money and resources. But actually, I think she used rocks because they are earth, and most decision making is done on a practical level, with the results of decisions carried out in the physical world. Judgement being a Major, and Libra being air...the artist certainly went to a lot of trouble to "Ground" Justice in the world what with trees and vines and snakes and .....rocks. You said: "I see it as trying so hard to be "FAIR" you can get lock up. Balance is so precarious, that Justice isn't working at all. Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself, to listen to your gut feeling, or you start to take root and get pinned down. Being "fair" doesn't get anything accomplished!" I see most of that as being a really excellent Rx reading for this card! But I can't accept it as an Upright meaning. What I do find fascinating, is that even with the explanation from Julia HERSELF, and the quote from the book, we still have plenty to debate in this card. I mean, just because we now know the artists' intention, none of us seem to be overly burdened with agreeing with it! It brings up more questions, as it's turning out, instead of less!

Ace	14 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 If someone says something that we all recognize is TRUE, for a minute (at least) we all stop and agree. then someone says, well, what if....? and we would be at it again! :D

magpie9	14 Sep 2004
Yes exactly!! :D Makes me wonder where thirteen and fulgour have gone off to....I wish they'd both come back. I thought they were making some very good points, even though I didn't understand some of it. Kabbalah---it's its own language. It's sort of like watching two talmudists doing pil-pul, fascinating process even if you don't "get" what they're wrangling about! Now, where were we up to? :D

Fulgour	14 Sep 2004
Whether you begin with Aleph= 0 or Aleph= 1 there will be the following correspondences between letters and signs: Aries - He (letter 5) Taurus - Waw (letter 6) Gemini - Zayin (letter 7) Cancer - Heth (letter 8) Leo - Teth (letter 9) Virgo - Yodh (letter 10) Libra- Lamed (letter 12 ) Scorpio - Nun (letter 14) Sagittarius - Samekh (letter 15) Capricorn - Ayin (letter 16) Aquarius - Tsade (letter 18) Pisces - Qoph (letter 19) So if you do start with Aleph= 0 then when you get to card VIII it is going to be Leo. Switching letters 9 and 12 at this point places Libra where Leo ought to be, but will pair it with Justice. Personally, I view the Tarot as corresponding to the Phoenician alphabet (parent of ancient Hebrew), leaving Kabbalah out of it. Aleph=1 brings Justice as the 8th letter, corresponding to Cancer, the sign in which we have the exaltation of Jupiter, the law giver. Phoenician Alphabet http://www.ancientscripts.com/phoenician.html

Fulgour	14 Sep 2004
[/font] Whether or not to begin with Aleph= 0 or Aleph= 1 depends on which of the cards you see as part of The Triad of Elements, The Unity of One in Three: The Fool The Hanged Man Judgement or The Magician Death The World

Fulgour	14 Sep 2004
These then are the remaining seven letters, signifying planets: Beth (letter 2) Gimmel (letter 3) Daleth (letter 4) Kaph (letter 11) Pe (letter 17) Res (letter 20) Taw (letter 22) Seven items, any seven items, may be ordered in up to 5,040 different ways. There are belief systems, such as Kabbalah, that usually order the planets a certain way, but Tarot is not Kabbalah, and so one is free to choose. I order them, beginning with II The High Priestess, as: Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn This order is nothing more than their distance from the Earth. _____

Thirteen	15 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 It seems to me, after reading all this posting that she has tossed the law, as well as the scales in order to be fair in a deeper way than man-made law can ever be. I'm not entirely sure what putting the scales aside might mean, other than to take matters in lher own hands... I think you're right. She has put aside the law, as so many Judges do, because it just wasn't satisfying her. The Law is absolute--Justice is not. I think she's set aside the scales for a similar reason--Perhaps she feels that the scales are still too artificial. As you say, it's not weighing the matter against her OWN heart--it's still a tool from without rather than a judgement from within. Quote: In the exerpt from the book it says: "...the double-edged sword resting on the arms of the throne is another shackel." to my mind, the sword wuld be a symbol of TRUTH, so I have a hard time seeing it as a shakel..............does this statement compute for anybody? I think this comes back to the Air aspect of Libra which, as pointed out, is oddly missing from this card. The symbolism is--you'll excuse the pun, heavily weighted to the Earth. The sword is less "Truth" than the mind which cuts through lies and gets to the truth. I think the message might be that while Justice can toss aside the tablets of Law (mental ideas) and even the Scales that weigh a heart (intent as it were) against that airy feather of truth, she can't toss aside that one Libra aspect of asking questions, of wanting to know everything, of cutting away lies and irrelevancies. She can't toss aside her keen mind. So, however grounded she is, rooted to the Earth, to that Throne, weighed down by the stones, the Airy mind is still there. She's constrained, as it were, to use cold logic and reason. Whatever else she tosses aside, Justice is still a philosophy, something that exists in our heads, not in our hearts. I think that may be why the sword is said to "shackle" her.

magpie9	15 Sep 2004
."...she can't toss aside that one Libra aspect of asking questions, of wanting to know everything, of cutting away lies and irrelevancies. She can't toss aside her keen mind."----------------------and------------------" She's constrained, as it were, to use cold logic and reason. Whatever else she tosses aside, Justice is still a philosophy, something that exists in our heads, not in our hearts" Thirteen, I think I see what you mean. I have as Astrologer friend, who is also a Libra. She says that it is not so much that Libras are always in balance, as that they are always trying to find balance. And watching her in action, for these many years I have noticed that she is not confortable with any proposed course of action until she is satisfied as to its "fairness". If she sees something as fair or just or right, she has no concern on how hard 'doing the right thing' might make her life. It just dosen't matter. Which, I guess, is why Justice is Libra...it's not all about how the scales look on a card!! I have never been that good at the astrological connections to tarot, though lately I find myself drawn to decks that require some of that knowledge. It may be time for me to buckle down and get with the 'orbits'. :D I see that Justice is a philosophy, a "head " thing, but don't you think that it also exists on some real level ? Metaphysical, yes, but still real, existing in its' own right? .

Fulgour	15 Sep 2004
VIII Justice is not the same as The Queen of Swords, the better Libra representative, and from the Minor Arcana. Here we also see the sensuous qualities of Venus: Love, beauty, possessions, social graces, and harmonic unions. The Court Arcana is all about the horoscope aspects of the different signs, their personality traits and egos. In the Major Arcana, the cards which correspond to the "signs" are elevated to the mature status of cosmic forces. One of the big differences between the Minor Arcana and the Major Arcana is that the Zodiac signs grow up. If Justice were Libra in the Major Arcana it would embody the mystical qualities of Lamedh: (to) Teach; devoted pupil. This is perfect for XII The Hanged Man (and the 7th month). Also, please note that Lamedh is the 12th letter, "Libra." VIII Justice, when naturally paired with the 8th letter, Heth, will signify: Mercy; refuge, fence. The 8th letter is "Cancer." Jupiter, the planetary Judge and Jury, is exalted in Cancer, and in keeping with Heth's merciful refuge, Jupiter brings to Cancer its benevolence, optimism, and growth, along with the search for answers, and solid ethical and moral values. Exalted in Cancer, Jupiter is fully empowered, with its mutable qualities (Jupiter rules mutable Sagittarius and Pisces) brought to their most adaptable flexibility. Here we have true "Justice."

Thirteen	16 Sep 2004
While it's very interesting to discuss whether Justice SHOULD be Libra, it's a moot point as in THIS CARD she IS Libra. It is however valid to remember that Venus is a part of Libra--most particularly the part of beauty and beautiful things, harmony and aesthetics. It's well worthing noting that Venus, originaly, was not a "Love" goddess at all--she was originally a Roman Goddess of Gardens and vegetation--relating us back to Justice as a Tree. Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 I see that Justice is a philosophy, a "head " thing, but don't you think that it also exists on some real level ? Metaphysical, yes, but still real, existing in its' own right? How real? There's a marvelous old Science Fiction story called "Cold Equations." A small ship is taking desperately needed medicine to a colony. It has just enough fuel to get there. The pilot finds a stowaway, a girl who just wanted to see her brother. But if the girl stays on board, the ship will crash. Her weight, slight as it is, throws all the equations off. So he has to throw her out. She has to die. "It's not FAIR!" she cries. And it isn't. How can it be fair for a child to die like that? But cold equations--REALITY--cannot be gotten around. There's no way for the ship to make it so long as she stays aboard. She leaves the ship by the way--accepting death. But it has nothing to do with Fairness or Justice. Just hard reality. Justice isn't a law of physics. It's nothing that can be touched or held or tasted. That doesn't make it any less important to us. But it's not recognized in nature. Cat's don't give mice a head start because "that would be fair," and Tidal Waves don't only crush people who deserve to die and that earthquake isn't going to spare your house because you're a good person. Justice is a good, imporatant, and to humans, essential construct--but there's nothing "real" about it. If there was, we wouldn't need judges or referees--we'd all know: Do this, and that will happen. Law of Justice :)

Fulgour	16 Sep 2004
What zodiac sign is the tai chi symbol for yin and yang? What zodiac sign are the tablets of law and the silk veil? What zodiac sign is the sword or the snake or the pillars? The Libra symbol represents a new dawn on the horizon, and once we leave the ruinous folly of The Golden Dawn and its cabalistic magic behind, see it as the nonsense it is once and for all ~ then we will begin to reclaim the Tarot.

Thirteen	16 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour The Libra symbol represents a new dawn on the horizon, and once we leave the ruinous folly of The Golden Dawn and its cabalistic magic behind, see it as the nonsense it is once and for all ~ then we will begin to reclaim the Tarot. Wow. Way to go with the bias. I don't think we need to "reclaim" anything. The Tarot is ours, and we each find our own way to make it ours. There is no "WE" involved. There is you and you alone--so please leave ME out of YOUR personal reclimation. If the Golden Dawn's way is problematic to you, then don't bother with it. But don't assume that it's "ruinous folly" for everyone--or ruinous at all for that matter. I take real offence to prostilizing mascarading as open-minded enlightenment.

Fulgour	16 Sep 2004
First you dismiss my point of view, and then you criticize my use of language. Excuse me.

The Ancestral Path Justice--help ! thread was originally posted on 13 Sep 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.