reading the cards without the given meanings?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

dawns_eve	20 Sep 2004
Hi everyone, it's been a long time since I posted but I still read. I was wondering if anyone interprets the cards just by what they see and not by the given meanings? I hope I am phrasing it correctly. For example, I was doing a reading tonight and I looked at the cards before I even looked at the book. While looking at one of the cards, I got a different picture in my head as to what the meaning of the card was. When I looked up the actual meaning in the book, it was something different. Is it possible to never use the meaning and just go by what you feel the cards are trying to say? Thanks and I hope everyone is well. blessings to all, dawns_eve

HudsonGray	20 Sep 2004
Yep! I use the Tarot of the Animal Lords that way, going with what the images show rather than strictly book or 'standard' interpretation. It's the first deck I'd gotten that insisted it be read that way--I'm still getting used to it.

Umbrae	20 Sep 2004
Yeah - sometimes but not always. There have been times I even pick up the card and talk about it to the sitter, pointing out aspects...and then look and say to myself...this is the page!?! But the reading - what comes out of my mouth - seems to have more importance than the cardboard and ink.

Eco74	20 Sep 2004
Verily so. The cards to have traditional meanings that are in line with the right interpretation most of the time, but every now and then a card means something very different. I recently got the Ace of Cups for instance and while this is normally a positive and emotional card it struck me this time as spilling emotion where it shouldn't be and missing the vessel that needed it the most. While this can also be seen as a possible "reversed" meaning of the card it still struck me as the most negative conclusion of that card I've yet encountered.. I believe that one has to be open to what the cards are saying, traditional meaning or not. If in a reading the traditional meaning does not apply, go with what the image awakes in your mind..

Tarot Sparrow	20 Sep 2004
Whatever feels right to you is probably your best bet. Sometimes tradition plays a big part in the meanings in a given reading, and other times it's the totally off-the-wall visual interpretations that make the most sense at the time. Either way, intuition or your gut feeling always plays a big part in what you read. Or, it should :D In my opinion, tarot is meant to be read, not dictated :)

Teranar	20 Sep 2004
I have been reading for about 5 years now. For three of those years I didn't know some, ok most of the cards' meanings. I still read, I read off of pure feel. This was bittersweet, if something didn't feel right or didn't feel at all I didn't have book meaning to fall back on. I got tired of this. Then, um, about two years ago, 2002, I found this nifty little web site, it had the cards' meanings, and it even had this nice little forum full of people I've come to adore and wished I was on more... But if you enslave yourself to the meanings in the books you limit your readings, if you go on your feelings you open your readings up to another level, you let them grow fairy (Or dragon) wings and let them fly! Wow. I sound like a hippie, Teranar

closrapexa	20 Sep 2004
Yes, I do that sometimes. I see a card, but in a certain context it seems to mean a completely different thing to me, that may not be exactly "by the book". Sometimes these feelings are so strong that during a reading I tell myself, "Well Death "is supposed to mean" change or something like that, but thats no good here, it goes more towards stagnation or thoughtlessness." Tarot speaks, in many voices.

dawns_eve	20 Sep 2004
Thank you everyone for your responses. It was most helpful!! I will be posting more often because I definitely miss you all and your wisdom.

mehndigirl	20 Sep 2004
This is where I am too. I'm trying to learn to let my gut overide traditional meanings. I'm having a problem with it when I read for myself though. I tend to doubt my instincts because I can never tell if its intuition, or me just projecting my hopes or fears onto the cards. I'm like this in daily life. Everytime I've ever called in sick to work I think "now, am I really sick or just trying to play hooky?" How does one learn to trust (or when not to) trust one's instincts? mehndigirl

Ace	20 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mehndigirl How does one learn to trust (or when not to) trust one's instincts? Michael Ventura said we should "Listen to the voices. The wee inner voices. Even if they don't speak, even if they only breathe a little, like dirty phone calls. Do anything they tell you to do except rape, kill, or pillage. (The voices make mistakes sometimes, but they don't make BORING mistakes.)" I think you have to learn to always trust one's instincts. They are really just another opinion, so you don't HAVE to follow them, but always know that they tell you truths and include that imput in your judgements.

Eco74	21 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ace Michael Ventura said we should "Listen to the voices. The wee inner voices. Even if they don't speak, even if they only breathe a little, like dirty phone calls. Do anything they tell you to do except rape, kill, or pillage. (The voices make mistakes sometimes, but they don't make BORING mistakes.)" Methinks I rather like this Michael Ventura character.. :D Having that very same problem both when reading for myself and people I have emotional ties to, I'll definately see about getting in tune with these wee voices. :)

dawns_eve	21 Sep 2004
I just went to the library last night to see if they had any books on Tarot. They are very limited because it's very conservative where I live. Anyway, they had a brand new book there called " The 2- Hour Tarot Tutor" by Wilma Carroll. I picked it up because I was curious and it was saying exactly what I was asking. She says to put away all your books and just say what you see on the cards. I may try it to see if it gets any easier for me. I get so confused with all of these books and such. Who knows...

Thindelock	21 Sep 2004
I view the "intended" meanings written in the books as the recorded intuition of whoever wrote the book (which is often not the artist of the cards in the first place). Thus, I treat the book-definition of a card like the wisdom of an elder: he or she has more experience than I, but the insight may or may not be any better depending on the situation in question. So I at least consider a book definition before going my own way, most of the time. Then again, I've come to find that some of the "elders" who write the books are senile. ;) You learn to pick and choose which definitions resonate with you and your personal reading style. As for learning when to trust one's insticts... it takes practice and time. For me, I've always been one to play "devil's advocate" in a discussion, so when in doubt I consider all the other meanings that run contradictory to my initial, gut reaction. I look at my first response, look at other responses, and meditate on them until one "feels" right. Not always 'pretty,' not always what I want to hear, but RIGHT. It usually doesn't take very long for one answer to just resonate... I don't know how else to say it. By comparing all the outcomes and letting intuition guide me, it acts as a filter to make sure I'm not just giving a knee-jerk reaction based on what I want to hear. Tarot is an inherently intuitive and empathic art. It seems to me that learning to trust the intuition, and learning to control your own biases from overcrowding it, are vital steps on this road. Maybe this will work for you? Good luck!

SongDeva	21 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by dawns_eve I just went to the library last night to see if they had any books on Tarot. They are very limited because it's very conservative where I live. Anyway, they had a brand new book there called " The 2- Hour Tarot Tutor" by Wilma Carroll. I picked it up because I was curious and it was saying exactly what I was asking. She says to put away all your books and just say what you see on the cards. I may try it to see if it gets any easier for me. I get so confused with all of these books and such. Who knows... I read this for a few hours at Borders the other day. I have always read intuitively, the way you describe, but have been flirting with learning others' meanings lately. At any rate, I did the exercises she talks about, which I found useful. I think she's kinda neat, and what she teaches is certainly useful in your overall tarot education.

Vincent	21 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by dawns_eve Anyway, they had a brand new book there called " The 2- Hour Tarot Tutor" by Wilma Carroll. I picked it up because I was curious and it was saying exactly what I was asking. She says to put away all your books and just say what you see on the cards. So what does she teach you for the rest of the two hours? Vincent

Fulgour	21 Sep 2004
:TQW Learning Tarot: Like the Moon & Sun What you can learn about Tarot from books is like studying basic astrology and finding out about the signs and planets. It's all pretty good, but the truth is ~ no two books are alike. So for a fundamental understanding of the basics, you must do a lot of work on your own, to get the things that you need. But on a personal level, the Tarot is more like the Moon ~ something so different in every way than the light of day... Here is where intuition touches us, where instincts guide. :TQW

Umbrae	22 Sep 2004
When I learned how to read tarot, there were no books (except Waite's Pictorial Key, which was a big version of the LWB (I tossed them both and read nothing). So I journaled. I did not use accepted meanings because I did not know any. I learned by reading Tarot - not by reading books. That was 1972. I didn't start reading any Tarot books until...99? 2000? Thereabouts...

dawns_eve	22 Sep 2004
I've been doing the exercise in the book which is basically to look at the card and immediately say what comes to mind. To my surprise, I have been pretty satisfied with my results. My explanations are also pretty close to the given meanings anyway. I have trouble with the Kings and Queen though, I can never get anything from the pics because it's just them sitting there...if that makes sense? There's not enough going on in the pic to help me?

dawns_eve	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent So what does she teach you for the rest of the two hours? Vincent Hmmmm...haven't gotten that far yet...we'll see I guess.

Macavity	22 Sep 2004
Guitar players might be reminded of the (in)famous "Play in a Day" type of tutors of some years ago? But I think many of those would aknowledge it was THEIR first book, and was also tremendously instrumental in kindling their interest... :D But, in a similar way to Tarot, the "nature versus nurture" debate rages (sic) on Guitar forums. Supporters (naturists? ) will say "Hendix never read music". Detractors call him a "hack" musician. But, unless one is a genius (one opinion!) of THAT calibre, then what's wrong with building on the experience of others? It's anecdotal that Mr. H expressed a desire to (return to) study concepts of classical composition. And so it seems do many of the self taught... I once saw a Violin duet featuring (inate) Jazz virtuoso Stephan Grapelli and classically trained genius Yehudi Menuhin. Now it has to be said that (subjectively) in this JAZZ arena, the former edged the latter in... panache - But it was a close thing! I suspect too, Menuhin would have had his "revenge" over a bit of Beethoven. Horses for courses? But I think the debate has origins deep within the human psyche. Who wants to know that someone practiced 16hrs a day or learnt from books, when (you too!) can be a genius? And, in this world of the instant, who want's to see "the cogs turning", even if someone actually DID the studying? Magic sells... }) Benefits arise from nurturing inate abilities AND incorporating ideas of others? ;) (I Hope) Macavity

SongDeva	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae When I learned how to read tarot, there were no books (except Waite's Pictorial Key , which was a big version of the LWB (I tossed them both and read nothing). So I journaled. I did not use accepted meanings because I did not know any. I learned by reading Tarot - not by reading books. That was 1972. I didn't start reading any Tarot books until...99? 2000? Thereabouts... There were plenty of books for me (you oldster, you). I bought one with my first Thoth deck. I read quite a bit of it. Retained nothing. I think it was for Rider Waite meanings, not that it really matters at such a novice level. At any rate, I tossed it...put the deck aside, cause it didn't speak to me much either, in the way I wanted it to, although the meanings for the readings I did were dead on. Then I bought the Sacred Circle. More of a response, but still not much. Then a friend gave me his Osho Zen, and I started to get it. Some time after, I arrived at AT, and thought, Oh, I need to learn these meanings...!? Then one day I said, to hell with it, and gave into what my intuition was telling me. Just *read* them. So I offered some intuitive readings in the exchange forum...and never looked back. Sd

Fulgour	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by dawns_eve I have trouble with the Kings and Queen though, I can never get anything from the pics because it's just them sitting there... One day when I was reading something very complicated about the Court Cards, I remembered how my sister and I used to make up fantasy games when we were kids. Movies, especially, we would play the parts ~ all of them, taking turns. And it came to me that if you asked a child to tell you who the people on those cards were, they would know, in their own 'instant' kind of way ~ they would just say what they saw...

Vincent	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity But, in a similar way to Tarot, the "nature versus nurture" debate rages (sic) on Guitar forums. Supporters (naturists? ) will say "Hendix never read music". Detractors call him a "hack" musician. But, unless one is a genius (one opinion!) of THAT calibre, then what's wrong with building on the experience of others? It's anecdotal that Mr. H expressed a desire to (return to) study concepts of classical composition. And so it seems do many of the self taught... The ability to read music is essential to playing a piece that you have never heard before. And, any decent musician, even if they cannot read music, will have some idea of scales, names of chords, chord structure and progression etc. Quote: Originally posted by Macavity I once saw a Violin duet featuring (inate) Jazz virtuoso Stephan Grapelli and classically trained genius Yehudi Menuhin. Now it has to be said that (subjectively) in this JAZZ arena, the former edged the latter in... panache - But it was a close thing! I suspect too, Menuhin would have had his "revenge" over a bit of Beethoven. Horses for courses? Grapelli might not be the best example, as he was classically trained at the Paris Conservatoire, though I take the point. Someone once compared what he did on the violin as the musical equivalent to throwing a case of oranges in the air and then catching every single one. Not something most violinists are comfortable with. I believe Grapelli played a few classical concerts. I seem to remember an interview with the orchestra members where they particularly praised his tone production. Quote: Originally posted by Macavity But I think the debate has origins deep within the human psyche. Who wants to know that someone practiced 16hrs a day or learnt from books, when (you too!) can be a genius? And, in this world of the instant, who want's to see "the cogs turning", even if someone actually DID the studying? Magic sells... }) Benefits arise from nurturing inate abilities AND incorporating ideas of others? ;) (I Hope) Macavity I think you are correct, but it is important to note that whether it is Hendrix or Segovia on the guitar, they had to spend long hours developing their knowledge of musical theory, and listening to the musicians that preceded them. Vincent

tmgrl2	22 Sep 2004
I am new, too, to reading Tarot. At first, I gobbled up books. I have about 50 in my home library. Then, I began to feel it was time to read with trust and reflection. I did use this at first, but always needed to back up the reading with something from some of my books. Now...and it's only a few months later, I read the cards, in the positions in the spreads as they interact, based on what I have "studied" so far.... and then, somewhere during the reading, I start talking and things come out of my mouth in a stream of sentences ....this I love. It isn't always what I learned. In fact, these are moments when so much more comes forward. It's quite a journey and I have a long way to go. So, my suggestion, would be that since there are books available now, why not study what you can. There are different traditions and wide-ranges in meanings for some cards. Journal. Keep copies of readings. Read a lot here at AT. There is something on every card and topic you might want. As you gather together this information, what you learn will be dots within you that begin to connect each time you do another reading. In what I have left of my life, if I only make strides toward becoming a better reader, that will thrill me. terri Study and read with joy

Macavity	23 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent Grapelli might not be the best example, as he was classically trained at the Paris Thanks - I didn't know that! ;) I do remember in an interview, Grapelli was asked "Why do you always carry your Violin with you" (He held it throughout the interview) I guess the audience anticipated some deeply "mystical" significance? "Well", replied the great man: "Someone might SIT on it, pr'aps?" :D I'm not sure about ALL the musical details. It's fun to speculate that in TAROT, as in music, there are (at least) THREE methods of learning. How s/he says s/he did it. How others perceive s/he did it. And what s/he actually did... }) Macavity

daneo52	23 Sep 2004
I am still rather new to tarot, and do not post here much. I just wanted to say that reading this made me realize that I want to try going purely with my instincts in my readings for awhile and see how it goes. I get so confused, because I have lots of books, and they all give different interpretations anyway.

dawns_eve	23 Sep 2004
I was thinking yesterday as I was shaving my legs...I know...too much info LOL....anyway, if tarot is about using your intuition and interpreting what the cards tell YOU, then why are given meanings needed? Isn't it really subjective anyway? Maybe I am wrong but I was taught to go with your instincts and if they lead somewhere other than "the norm" then the meanings mean nothing, right?

mehndigirl	23 Sep 2004
Last night I took my most comfortable deck out to the club with me. NO BOOK. I did 3 awsome readings, even amongst the chaos. I realized that this is a consistant trend. At home, when I have my books, I get blocked and look things up. If I don't have acces to books I don't need them. Maybe I'll pitch them all! I'm sure there's a time when most (me included) need a starting point. But I think there also comes a time when, you've got the jist and the defs become incumbering.

Ace	28 Sep 2004
Interestingly (at least to me!) recently, I did a reading and hit 4 of Wands Rx. I wanted desperately to run to the book (I downloaded Astra's bigger book off her web site for the WorldTree tarot) and look up what it meant. I am still not sure what I was running from, but I think I was DENYING somehow waht I saw in that card for this querent. IN the end, I forced myself to talk about it. I don' t remember what I said, but she didn't fight with it, so maybe it was true! But I think that "going by the book" is a way of blocking (YES, mehndigirl, you do see clearer without the book!) of what the Universe has to tell you right now. SO as I said on another thread: THROW THE @#$%&^* LWB AWAY! (or if you MUST, follow Raymond Buckland's advice: read it once or twice, THEN throw it away! )

blackadder	29 Sep 2004
I'm glad I found this post! I had this same question. I've just restarted learning the tarot. It seems that most of the meanings that I give to the cards do not match their given meanings. I thought that I may be doing something wrong. I glad to see that others don't go by the book.

Umbrae	30 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ace SO as I said on another thread: THROW THE @#$%&^* LWB AWAY! Behold! The Mouthpiece of Ooolatek the Seditious One Who Tells Only Lies is about to speak. Tremble ye heretics! I’ve often said in one way or another, that there is divination, and then there is divination. Some people use the artist bias in illustrations as a standard for their interpretations. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy. Some people use numerology, in combination with card suits. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy. Some people use nothing. They use Tarot as a tool for (gathering) some kind of vision, or information from ‘nowhere’. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy. Some people use combination of all of the above. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy. Some people find artist bias gets in the way of their interpretation. Some people can read cookbooks all their lives, practice in the kitchen for years, and never figure out how to make a good hard-boiled egg. It’s important when you are new, to ask yourself a couple of questions. The most important in my opinion, is why do you read. The answer has a lot to do with what kind of approach you will chose. If you don’t know why you read – you may choose poorly. Above entrance of the Oracle at Delphi, were the words – “Know thyself”. Such words should still be heeded. LWB's make lovely fires. Many larger books do also...as do really bad decks. Read from the heart - not the intellect. Reprinted from an earlier post

Seed Crystal	09 Oct 2004
May I recommend Amber K's _Heart of Tarot: An Intuitive Approach_ ? She recommends working directly from the cards AS SEEN BY THE QUERENT!!!! Leave not only refernces behind, leave behind blinders you may have on your own vision. Weird, a little scary for reader and for any experienced querent - but good readings can come from this.

tarotlova	11 Oct 2004
It's good to have a basic idea from books on the cards meanings, but definitley go with what you feel at all times, for me the 9 of Pentacles when I ask a work related question always means no for me when all the books say this is a most positive card in answer to a question! The Sacred Circle book is another example if this had of been my first deck I would not of continued with learning the Tarot as this has the most negative explanations on Tarot cards I have ever read, full of doom & gloom the Celtic history explanations I can't fault as for the rest of the book blah! So I just go by what I feel and have much more better readings. Hope this helps you :)

yve	11 Oct 2004
I believe that those who can do divination without the given meanings as laid down in the LWB, whether it be tarot, runes etc are the truly gifted ones...after all, it is an individual, one person, who assigns, and add their own interpretations to those subjective meanings....the only possible reason for study to aid in interpretation may be in the symbolism and their meanings...and this is only my opinion....

WalesWoman	11 Oct 2004
I think this is why I like the Legends deck so much, when I'm not sure what else, I'll stick with the traditional meaning, but sometimes, the cards are so literal it's uncanny. For instance, my cousin, her husband and their son's girlfriend tragically crashed their plane in Wyoming last May. The weather was too bad for search and rescue and the cards that came up were the Star, which looks just like a plane in flames and Justice, which if you use your imagination looks like a plane dragged from water. There were so many cards with water or rivers, but from everything I've heard, they smacked into the side of a mountain somewhere around Lander. I asked for locations and got the Page of Swords, The Page of Cups, the Page of Spears and King of Spears. I took it to mean somewhere between the Snake River, Salmon River and the Little Big Horn. There were some other cards that bothered me, like perhaps they might have survived like 9 of Cups, "healing of the maimed King", but as far as I know the search planes found just bits and pieces of wreckage, but as far as I know have never recovered any their bodies. Over the summer while I was fishing the Queen of Wands came up a lot, I realized I had to get out from behind the wheel and out on deck, be all, do all and learned to clean fish. Never knew that was a total turn on, not for me... but the old man thinks I'm a total wonder now. The Queen of Cups has been coming up a lot and I realized it wasn't me, but his boat! It's named after his mother, they both are _itches. And I was having some serious 9 Swords angst until I figured that one out.

The reading the cards without the given meanings? thread was originally posted on 20 Sep 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.