Tarot Symbols

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
This is going to probably be an ongoing thing as there are so many symbols in the Enoil Gavat that I can not recognise and interpret and am hoping that some of you will be either able to tell me what they are or point me in the direction of a place that I can find out. The first symbols are from my daily draw 'The Knight of Coins'. They are as follows - (I cannot post the same image again, so here is the link to the attatchment which is called SYMBOLS - http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30839 Yaboot

Centaur	07 Sep 2004
Interesting. :D I am very unsure about the two symbols on the lower part of the image posted on the other thread; the line and the circle with the line through it. However, I am reminded of some of the shapes and symbols used by Kay Steventon in the Spiral Tarot. Unfortunately, I do not have the book that accompanies the Spiral. Perhaps someone who does could have a look inside in order to find anything that might be of use to you. With regards to the symbols on the top part of the image, the symbol on the left looks like the Hebrew letter Vav. From what I have read on the matter, this letter is all to do with connection between spirit and the self. I am no expert on Hebrew letters and their meanings, but I found this; Information re. Vav Also, in connection with Vav, and from the Quest Tarot Handbook (drawing on all sources here, LOL), by Joseph Ernest Martin: 'Ask yourself if you have cut yourself off your contact with the divine. If you have, then you must now reconnect to that powerful spiritual energy. This is the energy of the one, the energy of 'all that is and will be'. You are able to connect with an incredibly powerful system. Use this power wisely. Do not let your ego claim this exceptional, unique power'. With regards to the image to the top right, this looks like the Hebrew letter Hei. According to what I have read, this letter refers to speech, thought, and action; Information re. Hei And again from the Quest Tarot Handbook: 'Deeply consider how you can make your speech a benefit to those who are listening. Speaking off the top of your head will cause harm at this time. Take a moment to pause and think before opening your mouth. Become generous in what you have to say'. I am assuming that other cards in the Gavat will also use other Hebrew letters. As to the signs to the lower part of the image... I am unsure. Could these be references to planets or something along those lines? Also, why the number '2' in the top right hand corner?

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
Thanks for the info Centaur; you are a star. I was wondering about the '2' as well. It appears on a lot of the cards. When looking at a lot of the Hebrew letters, it can be confusing because in the books I have, there are many that seem similar. I havn't read the extra info but I will. Thanks. Yaboot

Macavity	07 Sep 2004
In the Stairs Of Gold, Tavaglioni uses essentially the same scheme? For the courts anyway, I believe the Hebrew letters indicate association with elements: Yod = Fire; Heh(1) = Water; Vau = Air; and Heh(2) = Earth. Thus, the Knight of Pentacles becomes: "Vau of Heh(2)" or Air of Earth etc. Much as for the Golden Dawn. The minus and the circle-minus (in the S-O-G anyway) appear to be representations of the suite/element as well. Mr.T seems to associate suites with arithmentic operations (Addition, subtraction, division and multiplication) but these seem not to follow QUITE the usual symbolism, but may be alchemical signs? Seemingly: Sulphur/Fire, Azote/Air, Mercury/Water, Salt/Earth! But there seems to be quite a lot of variantion on a theme! Perhaps the only solution is to deduce your own (experimental) table? ;) Macavity

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
Just pulled out all four Cavaliers. I agree with you Centaur, that the symbol on the right looks like Hei. In the Cups Cavalier card, there is also this symbol, but without the '2'. If the other letter is Vav, then the Sword Cavalier has two of them. The Wands Cavalier has one Vav on the left and another letter on its right. Looking at the other minors, each and ever one has a mixture of the three different letters, some with the number '2' to the top right of it. To make matters worse, there are the '+' and '-' symbols below them; some with circles around them. Am I confused? You bet I am. Tavaglione!!! Get your a**e over here!!! Yaboot

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
Macavity Thanks for posting. That helps some more. You must have been posting while I was ranting, lol. Will look further into this but a lot of it does go right over my head. Thanks for your help. Yaboot

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
Maybe I should quit while I am ahead. Just looked at other minors. The exact same symbols as shown on the attatched card are on both the 3 and 6 of Coins. On these cards there are also triangles. An upright on the 3, and an upright and reversed one on the 6. Now I could be wrong, being quite ignorant, but is the triangle on the 3 showing the triangle on the 'tree of life' which these three coins emulate. If so, then the they also reoccur on the 6, but are accompanied by the reversed triangle - the other three coins emulate the triangle formed by the other three sefirot below them on the tree. Therefore the first three would be Keter, Binah and Chochmah. On the '6', they are joined by Gevurah, Tiferet and Chesed. Now if that is true, I can look for some sense in that. Now I need to make some kind of relation between the symbols shown at the bottom of these two cards with that of the Cavalier. Who was it who said that tarot was a lifetimes study? Yaboot *Off to look for more triangles in the cards - even though not completely sure what it is I am discovering, lol*

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
I am just rambling now; not completely sure what about but it helps to write it here so that I can come back and look at it again. Even though some of the signs beneath the letters are a little different - some have the sign for infinity below them, it seems that the combination of hebrew letters apear in the same format in four groups of cards. One set for each court. As follows - The Page has - 10 Coins The Knight has - 3 Coins 6 Coins The Queen has - 2 Coins 5 Coins 8 Coins The King has - Ace Coins 4 Coins 7 Coins 9 Coins In some cards there is a square below the triangle, which again, I think refers to the tree - in this case, the extra coins or cups would be in the places of Gevurah, Chesed, Hod and Netzach. On the two of Coins, showing one coin above another, two parallel lines cup between them. Is this Yesod and Malchut or is it Tiferet and Yesod??? I am imagining it is the first pairing since the closeness is more correct to the diagram of the tree. The wands also show the triangles and squares, so I can get an idea what I am looking at, if it is related to the 'tree of life' but, for example, some cards, such as the 10 of Swords, just have what seems to be an arrangement of swords; others, such as the 6 of Wands have a pentagram encased within them. Ok. Do I know what to do with all of this information? I havn't got a clue. Yaboot (still smiling)

Little Baron	07 Sep 2004
An example of the squares and triangles on the 7 of Coins.

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
Todays Brainache! The Three of Swords... In todays card, the three swords form a triangle - their blades pointing in a clockwise direction. Within the swords is encased a small (drawn) triangle. As mentioned yesterday, I see this triangle to suggest a link to the first three Sepirot of the Tree of Life - Keter, Chochmah and Binah. In Soshanna Cohen's book, she labels this triangle as the First Triad. She calls Keter the 'light'. Chochmah becomes 'father' and Binah becomes 'mother'. She goes on to say - "Chochmah is the will to expand, the chaotic force, and the driving need to live, reproduce, and learn. Binah accepts this force and modifies it. Without Binah, Chochmah would expand out of control, and life would be impossible. Without Chochmah, Binah would maintain perfect stasis; there would be no life at all. There two sefirot, combined with Keter (the beginning point), form the supernal triad. Together, they represent knowledge, wisdom and understanding. When starting to learn the tarot, I was given the idea somewhere a long the line that the Empress was the 'mother' figure and that the 'Emperor' was the 'father' figure. In the Enoil Gavat, the asigning of Binah is given to 'L'Imperatrice' (The Empress), but rather than the L'Imperatore', the sefirot of 'Chochmah' is asigned to 'Il Papa' (Card V). It is 'Chesed' that is given to the Emperor. Ok ... so where was I? On the card is also two symbols to the left - the sign for Jupiter - 'Luck, growth, expansion and enthusiasm'. Also, above that is the sign of Libra - just reading somewhere that a definition of libra is 'The scales; the judge; ruled by Venus'. On this card, that would make sense, since it ties in with the astrological symbol of Venus at the top of the card. However, inbetween these two symbols is written '3 Dec.'. Any ideas around that one? If it stands for December, why is that written there, since the dates for Libra are September 22 - October 21. Maybe I have just interpreted this wrong and it has nothing to do with that. Any ideas are welcome. On the right of the card is written '12 Ottob. a Ottob. 21'. Is this something to do with a period of 'Libra', which I have already mentioned above? Once again, we have the Hebrew lettering. What looks like one 'Vav' next to another one. So, as Macavity says, that would be 'Air of Air'. Like I did with the Coins yesterday, I pulled out the courts and see that this one is owned by the 'Cavalier di Spade'. The definition of the card is written below - 'ALLONTANAMerTo. Partenza. Ripugnanza. Misantropia. Separazione'. The second word translates as 'departure'. The third, 'aversion, disgust, dislike, nausia'. The other three words, I could not translate. I imagine that the last could be 'seperation'. When studying the cards at first, I was always taught that the '3 of Swords' was associated with heartbreak, betrayal and loneliness, and throught the RWS imagery, it is not hard to associate it with as such. However, the airy nature of this card does not make me think so much of it being an emotional issue. I suppose that averting situations, parting and seperating, even though they can result in emotional disharmony, in this card, could talk of the 'action' alone. Somehow, I am going to take a fresh look at all of this and tie it together somehow. Be back in another couple of years! Yaboot

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
And the card -

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
Just looking at the other three's in this deck. The triangle is situated in the centre of all three cards - therefore, I imagine, linking the 'three's' to the three sefirot I have already mentioned. So, do I ... find out more about this triad and mix it with the element of the suit (water, earth, fire and air)??? Just looking at the left side symbols - Coins - the astrological symbol most similar to what us shown on the card is Capricorn. Beneath it is the sign for the 'sun'. Cups - Cancer, over the sign for a waxing moon. Swords - Libra, over the sign of Jupiter. Wands - What looks like Aries, over the sign of Venus - could that be linked to The Empress? In between all of these symbols, as with todays card, is written '3 Dec.'. I have little knowledge of this stuff but does it have anything to do with moon cycles? That is a complete shot in the dark. Right! Off to look into the triad of Kether, Chochmah and Binah. Yaboot

Macavity	08 Sep 2004
To a first approximation (I think!) I can explain the DATES. :D Tavaglione seems to use an entirely different scheme (to e.g. the Golden Dawn) for allocating minor cards to the Zodiac. Beginning at Zero Deg Aries, he has quadrants: 0 deg - 90 deg = Wands 90 deg - 180 deg = Cups 180 deg - 270 deg = Swords (Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius) 270 Deg - 360 deg = Coins He associates each quadrant with the TENS (sic!) of the corresponding suite and then assigns the ACE through NINE (nine cards) to the 30 Degree Decans (10 days) of each of (the 3!) signs in the above quadrants: A,2,3 Swords = Decans: 1,2,3 of Libra 4,5,6 Swords = Decans: 1,2,3 of Scorpio 7,8,9 Swords = Decans: 1,2,3 of Sagittarius etc. Now Libra is (as you say) Sept 21st - Oct 20th or approx. 30 days (Three Decans) of Ten days each. And the THIRD Decan of Libra (Three of Swords here) does *indeed* correspond to 12th Oct - 21st Oct... ;) Macavity

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
Macavity, my brain hurts!!! Thankyou for that. I have just read it twice; as much as all of this information is going in, it is going in slowly. I feel like I have completely opened a can of worms. I am quite enjoying it though. As much as the information is a lot for someone who is a novice in astrology and the Kabbalah, it is starting to help me look at the said cards on different levels. I never completely understood the imagery for the '3 of Swords' from the RWS, because the emotional pain in the 'pierced heart', for me, seemed to be more reflective of the cups suit. Looking at the '3 of Swords' here, I can see the departure and seperation, but as a needed and worthwile move away from something. I would be more likely to attribute the feelings of pain, suffering and betrayal to the '3 of Cups' in its reversed possition - dealing with the watery element of emotion. The swords here, moving in a clockwise direction, for me, seem to be decisive and want to cut through any problems by approaching them head on and removing themselves from a situation, rather than dwelling on its misfortune or loss. Does that make sense? In that sense, the cups, which are linked to Cancer and the Moon, display the nurturing, dreamlike and emotional qualities of the water element. Yaboot

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
Just another question Macavity! Where abouts are you getting your information about Tavaglione from? The deck I have (as it seems to be a used one) doesn't have a lwb. Cerulean kindly typed a lot of information from her lwb for me in the other thread 'Please help me to unravel the Enoil Gavat'. Does the 'Stairs of Gold' deck have a useful lwb with it that would be useful in working with the EG? Yaboot

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
Ok ... First impressions of the card - Three swords neatly connect, blade to handle, in the shape of a triangle. Their blades connect in a clockwise rotation. The card is asigned the number 61 - the sixty-first card of the deck. The card is asigned the element of Air; since there is two Hebrew letters that are the same (Vav), I interpret this to be 'Air of Air'. Below the Hebrew letters are a '+' and '-'. I am just guessing now, but the '+' is ringed. Do I asume that this card has possitive connotations, which differ somewhat from the negativity of the RWS depiction? Since it is upright, I imagine so, and can read its shadow side when it is reversed. The planet for this card is Venus. Besides the symbol, the words 'Domicilio Nocturno' are written. Any ideas of this translation? To the left, the symbols for Jupiter and Libra are displayed. The Italian descriptions, which I can translate, at the bottom are 'departure, aversion and seperation'. The triangle in the centre, I think, links the points of the three blades to the first three Sefirot of the 'Tree of Life' from the Kabbalah - Keter, Chochmah and Binah; knowledge, wisom and understanding. The First Triad- The first connection (Keter to Binah) is described by Cohen as 'The Path of Transparent Intelligence'. She also links this pathway to 'The Magician'. She says that the spirit of Keter is moulded into the great womb of Binah (the mother). The second connection (Binah to Chochmah) is described as 'The Path of Illuminated Intelligence'. She links this path to 'The Empress'. She says 'This is the path of love and fertility ... romantic energy'. Possibly from the mother to the father. Looking at the card in this way, I see the workings of the swords to be harmonious (something echoed by that of Libra). There is movement in the swords and their tips affectionately touch the handles of the next. There is something very 'locked in' by the way they are possitioned and possibly this has something to do with the balance created by the three sefirot. I always look at swords as messengers and communication; from looking at this, I see Keter (the light) to be at the forefront of this and the mechanics that make the card work possitively and inspire. However, negatively, the Italian keywords that are used could describe the shadow side of the card that has evolved through such decks as the RWS. Even though, seperating and parting from a situation does not always have to be viewed as negative. It could be another part of the possitive movements of this 'three'. Having Venus at the top of this card and it being a '3', I do look back to the Empress, who is also asigned 'Binah' in this deck. Wheras I see the 'boxlike' four as stability through home, I often look at the 'three' to be associated with family or the starting of one. That would tie in very nicely with the Empress's fertile and nurturing qualities. Ok ... I have said enough and I am not sure how useful all of that was, aside from getting it out of my head and ordering it here. Any comments about this would be very very appreciated. I will go back and look at the LWB information that Cerulean typed for me as I rememeber that there was some interesting stuff around the minors that may be useful in interpreting this card. Best wishes (hope you havn't fallen asleep, if you happen to be reading this) Yaboot

Little Baron	08 Sep 2004
I hadn't really thought about it before, but have just realised that whenever I bring this card to mind, the swords are never just laying there; in my mind, they are spinning around the centre triangle. I was wondering if all of that continuous spinning could be something to do with the essense of this card - that on the negative side, maybe it is a time to cut loose from the siutation and break free. Another question: that triangle! I have never thought of this before, but if it does relate to Keter, Chochmah and Binah, when reversed, does it then form the second triad? Or, as I imagine is probably correct, there is some blockage regarding the first. The spinning becomes more extreme and a way out is needed. I can see a lack of balance between 'Binah' and 'Chochmah' when reversed and maybe that sets the harmony between them off a little - possibly suggesting arguments and quarrels, jealousy and s stong need for an ending. This of course, would be more prominant if cards around it were indicating that balance or some kind of change or ending was needed. In Ceruleans notes, I have just read that along with Kings, twos and aces, the 'threes' are grouped according to interlect. This is once again interesting to me since it goes against my feelings of the 'Three of Swords' being associated with emotions and different kinds of heartbreak. I wonder if that is an association that was born with the 'bleeding heart'. I am sure that the significance runs deeper than that, but would be interested to know what others think - maybe some Marseilles readers could shed some light on how they read the 'Three of Swords' in their decks. Yaboot

Macavity	08 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 Just another question Macavity! Where abouts are you getting your information about Tavaglione from? Does the 'Stairs of Gold' deck have a useful lwb with it that would be useful in working with the EG? Yeah, mostly from the Stairs of Gold LWB. That and guesswork! But it would seems that Snr.Tavagione follows the same general scheme in his various decks? But nothing guaranteed! Good luck with your quest... :) M.

Rusty Neon	08 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity Tavaglione seems to use an entirely different scheme (to e.g. the Golden Dawn) for allocating minor cards to the Zodiac. Beginning at Zero Deg Aries, he has quadrants: 0 deg - 90 deg = Wands 90 deg - 180 deg = Cups 180 deg - 270 deg = Swords (Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius) 270 Deg - 360 deg = Coins He associates each quadrant with the TENS (sic!) of the corresponding suite and then assigns the ACE through NINE (nine cards) to the 30 Degree Decans (10 days) of each of (the 3!) signs in the above quadrants: A,2,3 Swords = Decans: 1,2,3 of Libra 4,5,6 Swords = Decans: 1,2,3 of Scorpio 7,8,9 Swords = Decans: 1,2,3 of Sagittarius etc. Now Libra is (as you say) Sept 21st - Oct 20th or approx. 30 days (Three Decans) of Ten days each. And the THIRD Decan of Libra (Three of Swords here) does *indeed* correspond to 12th Oct - 21st Oct... ;) Thus, Tavaglione's system of decan assignments for the numbered minor cards Ace to Nine would appear to be the same as Etteilla's. (The system of Papus in this regard would be the same as Eteilla's, except that Papus also puts Ten in the picture as Transition/Epagomene.)

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Thanks for jumping in and helping you three! It has been a lonely quest, lol. But ... to throw more fuel on the fire and to add insult to injury, I am going to continue ... With todays card, which is (hold your breath) ... 'Nove di Coppe' (9 of Cups). Ok ... in the card are nine cups. Each has a handle to both sides and is a pinky-red in colour. From the layout, I can see that the cups form show three triads - 1st - Keter, Chochmah, Binah 2nd - Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet 3rd - Netzach, Hod and Yesod Only Malcut is not included. I am sure that I have read that Malcut signifies some kind of physical existance, is connected with the genitalia and is how we are 'now'. If so, is this physicality absent from the '9 of Cups' for a reason. Confusingly, looking at the notes copied from the lwb, the nines are in the grouping related to the Physical Body, so maybe, I will have to rule that idea out. The card is number 41; being the forty-first in the deck. It is atrologically asigned with Virgo and the card is ruled by Mercury (speed, communication). Once again, in between the two symbols, we have written the confusing '3 Dec'... is this the 'Decans' you speak of Macavity - has the penny just dropped for Yaboot? Now, the Hebew letters. As Centaur pointed out earlier in the thread, for the 'Cavalier di Denari', the letters were 'Vav' and 'Hei'. With the added '2', as Macavilty pointed out, that makes that card, 'Air of Earth', right? This card has the same letters but without the '2'. That makes it 'Air of Water' ... yes? Below, we have the little infinity sign and a '-' sign. Does the infinity sign relate to Vav and the minus sign relate to Hei? Are they connected? If they are, are we looking at Hei (water) being receptive and passive, rather than dominant and 'outward'? The interpretation for this card is 'Vittoria - Successo (success?), Riuscita.Trofeo Vantaggio. Preminenza'. Vittoria does translate as success and triumph. Vantaggio translates as 'advantage, benefit, gain, profit'. In the Numerology threads, people look at the '9' as being close to completion (the '10'), so maybe the successes and triumphs are not completely fulfilled, as yet. The dates 12 Set a Set 21 are written to the right of this card. Anyone wanna see a picture? Is anyone reading these posts, lol! Oh, ok ... here you go then! Yaboot

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 In the Numerology threads, people look at the '9' as being close to completion (the '10'), so maybe the successes and triumphs are not completely fulfilled, as yet. Just pulled out the '10' for inspection. If we are saying tha the '9' has not yet reached completion, then maybe the fact that 'Macut' is included in the tenth card is what was lacking to make the '9' complete. Also, the Hebrew letters, unless I have read them wrong, translate as - 'Water of Earth' - possibly a combination of emotions and the physical. If Malcut does stand for 'physical existance' and the 'now', maybe this would be an apt conclusion to the ten cards in this suit. What do you think? Yaboot

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Thinking about the absense of Malcut again and the incompleteness of the nine; thinking about possible interpretations, given the usage of other cards around it in a spread - Thinking about things not completely coming to fruition. Even though the '9 of Cups' seems to be a triumphant and possitive card, as an example, I thought about people's connection via the internet; the feelings exchanged can make you feel 'wonderful', but obviously, they lack the physical connection. As a daily draw, I am reminded of my own relationship that has just begun. Even though we met physically, because we live far apart, until we see each other again physically, our relationship is conducted through telephone conversations and messages; therefore, if Malcut does stand for physicality at the core, then that is what is causing things to not be the 'complete ten'. Another example I considered was a wonderful marriage; emotions expressed; but due to the absense of the tenth siphirot, and Matcut's links to genetalia and the body, could there be a suggestion towards a lack of sexual contact or physicality between the couple. Obviously, dependant on other cards around it, but just a thought. Yaboot

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
I am at a slight disadvantage here because I do not own this deck. So... I am going to comment based only on the scans and previous comments I have read in the thread. If I start to babble then slap me. OK... as far as I am aware, the spatial arrangement of the various bits and bobs (wands, cups, swords, and disks) in the minor cards is connected to the position of that card with regards to the particular sephiroth it represents on the Tree of Life. I am not all that well versed in the Tree of Life, but I do have some limited (very?) knowledge. BTW, much of my information came from Duquette's, Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, and various Internet resources. Apparently, there are four different Quabbalistic worlds; Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah, & Assiah. From what I have read, Atziluth is often referred to as the Archetypal world, and is connected to the suit of Wands. Briah is often referred to as the Creative World and is connected to the suit of Cups. Yetzirah is often referred to as the Formative World, and is connected to the suit of Swords. And Assiah is often referred to as the Active World and is connected to the suit of Disks. As far as I am aware, and according to Duquette, there are four different Worlds, and therefore four versions of the Tree of Life. When I say versions, I do not mean that the Sephiroth differ; I mean that the Tree of Life is applied in each of these four worlds, and thus in each othese four suits. So... a way of thinking about it might be that the Tree of Life is interpreted in the Wands World (Atziluth), Cups World (Briah), Swords World (Yetzirah), and Disks World (Assiah). According to Duquette, who quotes from Angels, Demons, & Gods of the New Millennium, 'The Tree of Life is a linear schematic of ten emanations and twenty two paths upon which the universal mechanics of energy and consciousness are projected'. He writes, 'All ten sephiroth, or emanations, of the Tree are really only aspects of the facets of the top (first) sephira, Kether, which represents the totality of existence - the supreme monad'. From what I gather, the Tree of Life purports to map creation from the pure source of Kether, through to final physical manifestation at the bottom of the Tree in Malkuth. If we have four different Worlds, then there are four maps of creation from the source to the physical pertaining to each one of these Worlds. And thus, linked to the world of Wands (Atziluth), Cups (Briah), Swords (Yetzirah), and Disks (Assiah). So... perhaps in the Enoil Gavat, each minor card is taking us through this creative process... adding on a sephiroth with each card. I have not seen all of the cards though, so someone else would have to confirm this. Also, as far as I am aware, various Sephiroth are weaker or more powerful depending on whatever World they happen to be in. I think this is what is happening with the noting of elemental associations in these cards... through the use of Hebrew letters. Have I completely lost it here? So... in my opinion, these cards, in particular the minors, look to be a schematic depiction of the Tree of Life, and a symbolic depiction of the associations and strengths of the various Sephiroth in their respective suits (Worlds). Throw in a few planetary associations as well, and the Enoil Gavat becomes an esoteric symbolic Hell. Hahaha. With regards to the triangles, and squares... I read somewhere (I can't remember the link!!!! Ugh!!!) that these can be used in connection with planetary associations, and also that the triangles can be used as a graphical depiction of various runes. Anyway, I don't want to further confuse the post by babbling on about that at the moment. Hope I made some sense.

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Ahh, Centaur. Thankyou for joining me in here. I feel like a 'one man band' at the moment. Misery certainly does love company! Of course, I am not finding my studies of thr Enoil Gavat to be 'miserable', but I do love being joined by others and hearing their views and knowledge around the subject. I have briefly read about the four worlds but like you, my knowledge of the Kabbalah is limited at the moment, so I think I may just pop off to my 'warm bath' with a couple of Kabbalah books. I will reply to this a little later and also try and post a few more cards. I havn't looked at the suits as a whole yet, but maybe that may help with the points that you have brought up. I do know, however, that in some suits, the swords for example, the whole tree of life pattern does not seem to be prominant throughout. Will get back to you, but thanks very much for the pointers. I will read up and reply this afternoon. Yaboot

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 Ahh, Centaur. Thankyou for joining me in here. I feel like a 'one man band' at the moment. Misery certainly does love company! Of course, I am not finding my studies of thr Enoil Gavat to be 'miserable', but I do love being joined by others and hearing their views and knowledge around the subject. You have been firmly GAVATTED! Haha. Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 I havn't looked at the suits as a whole yet, but maybe that may help with the points that you have brought up. I do know, however, that in some suits, the swords for example, the whole tree of life pattern does not seem to be prominant throughout. Strange! I was thinking also that in the 9 of Cups that you posted, there is no triangle or square shapes. If the triangles and squares, etc, are linked to the Tree of Life, then I might expect them to be noted on each of the minors as a simple schematic depiction of the Sephiroth, and the links between the Sephiroth. I am just looking at the 3 of Swords, again, and it does seem as though the small triangle is a depiction of the first three Sephiroth. According to Duquette, these three sephiroth are very distinctive from the rest of the Tree, in that they are above what he calls the 'Abyss'. The 'Abyss' is just underneath the first triangle of Sephiroth, before the next lot are reached. The first three Sephiroth are the purest representation of their suit (World). Hmnnnn... so maybe that is why he makes a special effort to include the triangle in that card? I dunno. I am probably not making much sense. Maybe you will find something in those Kabbalah books? Oh, and one the subject of squares and triangles in esoteric symbolism... here is that link I was talking about. In particular, check out the Alchemy section, and the Planetary Aspects section... Esoteric Archives

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Thanks Centaur. I have lined out the suit of cups as an example; 1-10. There are more symbols but I will come onto that little confusion in a bit. Firstly, I am just going to post a few diagrams from Will Parfitt's book 'The Complete Guide to the Kabbajah - these are the diagrams that made me think that the squares, triangles and hexagon shapes were related to the tree of life. But even before all of that ... I am going to light a cigarette. Here are two diagrams. (Bare with me as I try and explain in the next few posts) Yaboot

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
When looking at the first diagram with the triangles, I related that to the first two triads, as shown possibly in the '6 of Coins'.

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 There are more symbols but I will come onto that little confusion in a bit. Firstly, I am just going to post a few diagrams from Will Parfitt's book 'The Complete Guide to the Kabbajah - these are the diagrams that made me think that the squares, triangles and hexagon shapes were related to the tree of life. Are there any downward pointing triangles on any of the cards? I am thinking back to the 7 of Coins, and the triangle and the square included on that. It does look as though it is almost a schematic representation of their respective positions on the Tree of Life. But... if this is the case, I am puzzled as to why these shapes are not used on all of the minors and suits, for instance, as in the case of the 9 of Cups. Ooooo. LOL.

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Similarly, I linked the second diagram to the '6 of Cups'.

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
6 Cups -

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 When looking at the first diagram with the triangles, I related that to the first two triads, as shown possibly in the '6 of Coins'. You just answered my question about downward pointing triangles. LOL. There is something else that confuses me... if we take the 7 of Coins, shouldn't there be a Sephiroth in the middle of the square? Confused.

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
Just saw the attachment for the 6 of Cups. It does look as though these shapes are connected to the Tree of Life. But I am just puzzled as to why there would be no shapes in the 9 of Cups? If it were the case that he was using these shapes to portray some kind of symbolic connection to the Tree of Life, then surely he would do so on each card. Unless ofcourse, there is a reason that he did not do so with regards to the 9 of Cups. Are there shapes on any of the other 9's?

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
And now, I am gavatted again because of other irregularities, or rather, things I can not fit into the same formular. The Ace has a black dot above it (????) The 'Two' has some kind of '=' sign between the two vertical cups. I had thought that maybe they were Yesod and Malcut. The 'Four' has a square - could indicate Gevurah, Chesed, Hot and Netzach. The five has the same square but also has the 'dot' from the Ace enclosed within it. The 'eight', as another example, has a pentagram within the cups and I cannot see how this fits into the tree structure. The nine and ten are quite self explanitary since they have the cups in the positions of the sefirot. Is this making any sense? Having another cigarette and taking a few deep breaths. Yaboot

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
Brace yourself, because this looks way too complex. LOL. Sacred Geometry Might all the shapes and dots be related to this?

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
I saw that the 9's are self-explanitory but maybe only for the Cups and Coins cards. See here -

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
I just saw your link Centaur ... but I will just post these final two cards in my ignorance before I take a look, haha. The swords and wands here are different and there are no accompanying symbols. However, at a stretch of the imagination, you could link where their tips point to be where the 9 Sefiot should be. Obviously, the two at the bottom require quite a stretch as they do not point at the correct possitions on the map. Yaboot

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Just looked at the link. I really don't know. It seems as though the shapes are pointing at the tree in some way, but so far, I can't confirm this. Maybe I should chuck the Evil Gavat out of the window and reach for a copy of 'Tarot de Teletubby' instead - It would be far easier - 'Lala is not feeling his best today. Unfortunately, he gave away all of his 'Tubby Toast' to Po' ... Meaning ... it's very good to give advice to others but beware that it could leave you feeling exausted; this card hints at balance in your relationships and suggests that you should resist being taken advantage of. No symbols, no Kabbalah, just tubbies on toast!!!!! Yaboot

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 Maybe I should chuck the Evil Gavat out of the window and reach for a copy of 'Tarot de Teletubby' instead Haha. Maybe it will all start coming together soon. Like a light being switched on. Click! :D

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Haha. Maybe it will all start coming together soon. Like a light being switched on. Click! :D Maybe! I think I am all out of lightbulbs right now! Centaur

Little Baron	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 Maybe! I think I am all out of lightbulbs right now! Centaur As you can see! I am one lightbulb short of a conventional standard lamp ... so much so that I am now signing off with other peoples names!!!! Yaboot (yep, that's the right name)

Centaur	09 Sep 2004
LOL. Yab, you have lost your sanity in the midst of those geometric shapes!

Cerulean	09 Sep 2004
1. Tavaglione Stairs of Gold 2. Tavaglione Stella 3. Esoterico (Gran Esoterico) 4. Etteilla (Grimaud, French) http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/decks/browsedecks.php Since this site lists every card in each deck, you will be able to find similarities or not for Tavaglione's designs. I think you will find Tavalgione may have chosen similar keywords for the Stella, but the design is very different. There are no keywords on the minors of the Stairs of Gold as far as I know. The Esoterico and Etteilla may give you clues where the "esoteric" or "Egyptian" design was coming from for Tavalglione. I hope this link helps in your observations and gives you plenty of other decks to also check out and compare with your daily draw. It will also be waiting for you should you have to run off and tend to other things... Have a great week and otherwise fruitful study... Regards, Cerulean

The Tarot Symbols thread was originally posted on 07 Sep 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.