Final outcome in a celtic cross reading

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Nov 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ace	29 Nov 2004
I am not sure if this goes here or in Talking Tarot, so Moddies, feel free to move it around as required. I was thinking a lot lately about the 10th, final outcome, card in a CC spread. It often comes up contradicting the rest of the spread. I am starting to think of it as "the outcome the Querent DOESN'T want." or "the outcome they will get if they don't change." Or just plain " the one thing they DON'T want to happen!" Has that happened to anyone else?

Thirteen	29 Nov 2004
I guess what you're asking is what happens if the "outcome" card, of any spread, comes out opposite to what the other cards seem to be saying, yes? This can happen. For example, you get positive cards all the way through the spead, then the outcome is something like the Five of Pentacles or Three of Swords. And how do you connect this final card to the rest? Part of the problem is the spread itself. The CC, for example, only has one other "what's to come" card. Most of the other cards are past (what's behind) or what's in the way (crossing), or how others feel about it, or hopes/fears, that kind of thing. So, for example, if you were asking about a new romance, you might see that it was all well in the past (behind you), that your friends like the guy, that you have great hopes, etc. But none of that has anything to do with The Outcome. If it's the 3/swords and he/she is going to break your heart....well, he/she is going to break your heart. It won't be the first time you and everyone else is shocked to realize that a guy/girl you thought was wonderful and perfect wasn't either wonderful or perfect. So, first question--is the spread mostly "present tense" with only the "outcome" as future tense? If so, then there might be no contridiction. If that doesn't work for you, then you have to consider that perhaps you read those other cards wrong--or maybe just the outcome card. All positive cards have some negative to them and vice versa. Perhaps, in your desire to put a positive spin on the romance, you've overlooked the warning signs. You see The Empress and read that as loving attention, when you ought to read it as smothering attention. The Sun may be warmth, but it can also indicate a sunburn. Maybe they're more in tune with the outcome than you think--or maybe the seemingly "negative" outcome is more in tune with them than you think. Does this help at all? You might, also want to offer us an example. What outcome card did you get that was so out of sync with the spread?

biddy9	30 Nov 2004
You know what?! I really think that the Outcome card often refers to what will happen if the client doesn't change - exactly what you were thinking, Ace. I often get an Outcome card that reflects the current mindset, and not what could potentially be the Outcome if the client followed the advice of the reading. Sometimes, this is awfully frustrating because you can see the changes the client needs to make, but then to have your outcome card be so close to what they are currently like, you know that nothing probably will change. And how about when your client is asking about whether they will find romance in the next six months and your outcome card is not favourable? It's always hard to deliver bad news, especially when the rest of your reading is trying to convince your client that they need to make some changes for the best results. So, all in all, yes, I think it is indicative of the outcome if your client pursues the current path.

dadsnook2000	30 Nov 2004
I believe that Thirteen made a very important point regarding how the Celtic Cross spread is used. It is often mis-used. In my mind, the question asked should determine the spread to be used. The spread has to include those components that frame the question, the alternatives to be considered, the path to the answer, and the probable outcome. I think we could do some major threads on typical questions and appropriate spreads -- recognizing that we can construct or apply many spreads to any question. The size and type of spread just reflects how much of an answer we are seeking. Dave.

Imagemaker	30 Nov 2004
Quote: threads on typical questions and appropriate spreads This is a great idea. Want to start one, Dadsnook? I rarely use the CC for a specific question on what to do. I use it as "the big picture" over a situation. I read the 10th card as "what is likely to be down this path of attitudes and beliefs." I'd rather use 3-5 cards for a tighter focus, more specific insight, or a more direct answer.

dadsnook2000	30 Nov 2004
Yes, I like other spreads better for most questions. A "general" thread that I use a lot is Juliet Sharman=Burke's TRIANGLE spread which consists of two cards at the bottom of the triangle, two on each side, and a final overview card in the middle. This is essentially a three-card spread except that you have a two card combination which can give a richer meaning to each of the three main areas. Of course, you can refine the spread -- as an example, the bottom pair can (instead of representing the past) can depict the past as you saw it and the root cause. The current RH side pair can represent the present and the resources you have to deal with it. Etc., etc. So, it is a very versatile spread. If others post their interest in matching up typical questions with approrpriate spreads then I'll be glad to start it off. Its not that I am an expert in this area but I do recognize the value of a good question receiving a good answer. Dave.

contradiction	30 Nov 2004
just thought i would add my input, as one who habitually uses the cc for everything, sometimes along with a 7-card spread, i don't always use the standard position meanings. i will often see that the cards do not make sense in the in/outside influence, or the past/present, or hopes and fears, position name, therefore i focus on what the cards are saying, not what position they are in. i have often tried other spreads, but i am just able to connect to the cards in this positional layout better than any other spread, even though i don't always use standard position meanings. but that is me, and that is why i joined this group, hoping to learn more than i now know. contradiction

Apollonia	30 Nov 2004
Like you, Contradiction, I have always felt most at home with the Celtic Cross, although I have no trouble using new spreads or making them up on the spot for questions such as, "Which of these three possible jobs would suit me best?" But the good old CC has my heart. Having said that, though, lately I have been having so much trouble with the final card! Sometimes I just say, "And the final card," hoping that it will tell me what it stands for. "Outcome" just doesn't feel right to me anymore, because that word sounds so fixed, as if that's what's going to happen anyway, so the heck with the other 10+ cards I just explained in detail.

dawns_eve	30 Nov 2004
This why I hardly ever use the CC. I don't understand why so many books and people refer to it as a beginner spread b/c IMO...it's not. It's sort of confusing and complex.

Thirteen	30 Nov 2004
dawns_eve wrote: This why I hardly ever use the CC. I don't understand why so many books and people refer to it as a beginner spread b/c IMO...it's not. It's sort of confusing and complex. Alas, it's most certainly NOT a beginner's spread. Far from it. But it's the spread that was put into the little white books back when tarot cards first made their popular appearence (i.e., when a lot of people first bought the Rider-Waite deck, "discovering" it and using it back in the 60's). Once it was in that little white book, it was in every little white book no matter the deck, almost as if it was the only tarot spread in existence. Now it's a mainstay though, thankfully, some little white books are smarter and have one or two simpler spreads as well. I think the only reason that the CC was annointed as the spread was because you're suppose to chant the words as you lay them out: "This crosses you, this is above you, this is below you...." The thought probably was that the chant would make it easy to lay out as well as impressive and mystical to both reader and querent. But I think, to the contrary, that a lot of beginners are intimidated by the CC--even sent running from Tarot. It's important for them to know that there are other spreads out there. Even those adept at tarot need to remember that. And that the CC is just one of those spreads, not "the spread."

dadsnook2000	30 Nov 2004
I have a question concerning something that Contradiction has said. It's not a criticism but it is a contradiction to something I have always followed. ** The magic of Tarot and how it works has a lot to do with the INTENT and FAITH of the reader. If I, as a reader, hear and understand a question and then choose a spread to frame it and then speak to what the cards say to me, then I am following an INTENT to adhere to a process. I have FAITH in the process. The process always works. Therefore, for me, the intended positional meanings within the spread helps to understand the meaning of the card as it is modified by being in that position. The card/position meaning applies to the question and the answer. ** I find that by not dropping the modification of the card due to its position that I come up with a richer meaning than I might otherwise see. Even if I have to struggle a little bit with how that meaning fits into the overall spread story, it ends up more accurately serving the querent. EDITED the following: So, my first question is, "How many of us drop the incorporation of a card's position in a spread if it doesn't seem to fit?" My logical follow-on question is, "If the positions aren't important then why use a specific spread?" And the third and final question, for the moment, is, "How many feel that they are primarily intuitive in terms of laying and reading the cards?" Dave.

Thirteen	30 Nov 2004
Really excellent questions. Let's see.... Quote: How many of us drop the incorporation of a card's position in a spread if it doesn't seem to fit? I, myself, almost never drop the cards position. To my mind, if it doesn't seem to fit, I figure I'm missing something. I'd prefer to put down a clarifying card than ignore the position. That said, there's more than one CC with different positions. Also, there are certain spreads that have no fixed, or very vague positions--like Konraad's past-life spread where you have 4-5 cards that are all in the position of "childhood"--and you have to merge them into a meaning rather than seeing only one as "childhood." Positions, to my mind, are flexable at least, if not "ignorable." Quote: If the positions aren't important then why use a specific spread? I think positions are important for beginners; without such positions to clue the beginner, they'd certainly get lost and frustrated. Cast your mind back to when you started learning the tarot; can you imagine just laying out ten cards, with no clue at all to positions, and saying, "Now what does this all mean? How does it answer my question?" That'd be really hard for a beginner. But if the position is there to tell the beginner, "This is in your past"--ah, well that make interpetation easier. Positions are like hints or clues to the meaning. A tarot master, on the other hand, is a different story. I know a few who can just lay out cards, no positions needed, and glean the answer holistically (sic). I think a specific spread without positions could be used because the shape of the spread, the layout if you will, evokes the answer. But I wouldn't advise anyone trying this until they've gotten really adept at reading the cards. Quote: How many feel that they are primarily intuitive in terms of laying and reading the cards? I'd guess that a totally intuitive reader would just lay out cards in whatever pattern or spread struck them, ignoring set positions and using what they saw to guide them. Backwards, we might say--seeing a card and saying, "that's the past" rather than seeing a position as "The past." I don't do this. So if that's what you mean by "primarily"--i.e., ignoring positions, then I'm not "primarily" intuitive. But really, intuition plays such a large role, and sometimes the cards answer questions that weren't asked and the reader just knows this. In such cases, you need, I think, not to ignore the positions, but to expand or elevate them beyond narrow or strict margins. Personally, I'm not one for ignoring them--but I'm not going to keep myself from stretching and exploring them either. If intuition screams at me that this is NOT the "outcome" but something else, best to listen to it. Or at least put down a clarification card ;)

Ace	30 Nov 2004
Thirteen wrote: Personally, I'm not one for ignoring them--but I'm not going to keep myself from stretching and exploring them either. If intuition screams at me that this is NOT the "outcome" but something else, best to listen to it. Or at least put down a clarification card ;) That is what I think I mean here. I just don't feel-especially if it contradicts most of the other cards, that the final outcome IS the final outcome of all that is there now, it just doesn't feel many times like a summary of the rest of the spread. So I am wondering how others feel about that. Obviously sometimes the layout is the same and the structure is way different. That is good, IMHO.

littlehermit	30 Nov 2004
If I'm reading for someone new or someone who wants an overview of their current situation, I resort to CC, because it does give a pretty good general picture from which I can take off in any number of directions. For specific questions, I usually use smaller, more specific spreads.

contradiction	03 Dec 2004
dave, maybe i should have said, as some others have, the positional meanings can be stretched to a point. more than that i don't believe in any outcome being "final". the positions, as well as the cards are subjective, take the DEATH, card, most of the time we would interpert it as an end to one situation, and the beginning of a new, not necissarly physical death, although it can and sometimes does. same as say the "present" position some will refer to it as the "hopes and fears" position. but, when are your hopes, and fears? now in the present, therefore either would be correct. also i am just more comfortable with the structure, the shape the design of the cc, i could lay the same 10 cards, in a straight line and would not have a clue. it is not the position names as much as the arrangment that has a meaning for me. as for your question on "faith", and "intent", my faith is that no matter what i do the cards will tell me what they want me to know if i listen to them. and my intent is to let them guide me in the reading, and not me guide them into position. hope this clears up, what i meant. listen to what i mean not what i say (lol) contradiction

Phaedra	06 Dec 2004
biddy9 wrote: Sometimes, this is awfully frustrating because you can see the changes the client needs to make, but then to have your outcome card be so close to what they are currently like, you know that nothing probably will change. I think the core of this issue is whether a reader should be a passive passer-on of information, or a pro-active advisor. About half-way through my Tarot career (almost 30 yrs) I switched from the former to the latter, mostly because of my experiences getting readings from diviners from traditions that expect the diviner to give advice (in my case, Ifa). What is the point of going to a diviner to find out a situation is bad if you don't find out how to change the situation? If I have "bad" or unsettling cards in any current or future/outcome positions, I talk to the client about changing that outcome. Sometimes I'll tell them their job is to turn a reversed card upright, and we'll discuss how that might happen. I also emphasize that reading outcomes are based on nothing changing from the current situation. The very fact the client is there getting a reading, getting insight they did not have before, is beginning the process of change.

TemperanceAngel	06 Dec 2004
I have used the CC for 15 years and love it. -------------------------10-- ---------------5----------9--- ---------4----1+2----6---8--- ---------------3----------7--- Now as I read it I see cards 5 and 6 intrinsically linked with Ten, to me they all create the possible outcome. Sometimes 10 can appear to be a little lifeless, but what do 5 and 6 say? The combination of the three can make it all much clearer than just 10, or 10 and 6. Sometimes the outcome doesn't fit with the rest, why is this? Maybe the client feels that way, even though the cards have a different perspective. Five represents to me how the person is thinking in the situation or not, whatever the case maybe. Three would tell me how grounded they are or the situation is. This also helps with the outcome. I see 9 as their expectations, in a way....how are they viewing the situation? That position can also give a real clue! I hope this makes sense and is of some use :)

RedMaple	07 Dec 2004
I use the CC a lot, and a variation of it that I think was originally from the Motherpeace layout (which is really a CC, but laid out in a circle). In this variation of the CC, if the card in position 10 is not a Major, you draw up to three more cards until a Major appears. I find this extends the reading into the future, and often I get a real story line that appears. Also, the unsatisfying 10th card is often clarified. I don't use the three and five card spreads much, but would like to explore them more. I also use a double-seven horseshoe spread a lot, which has only one past position, 2 present, and four that deal with a future path. I often do the Celtic Cross first, as it gives me a sense of the whole picture, then do the Double Seven Horseshoe for more focus on what's coming up in the future. I'd be interested in what spreads people are using for particular questions, a thread on that is a great idea.

Phaedra	07 Dec 2004
RedMaple wrote: In this variation of the CC, if the card in position 10 is not a Major, you draw up to three more cards until a Major appears. I find this extends the reading into the future, and often I get a real story line that appears. Also, the unsatisfying 10th card is often clarified. Yes, I do that also, whenever the outcome card is ambiguous. Don't remember where I got it from, but it predates Motherpeace. In recent years, I've become more and more inclined to draw additional cards for clarification for any position in a layout. I read the layout as a whole, and draw more cards for whatever I want more info on. Often, it's sort of a make a layout on the fly; I think of what the "position" of the card should indicate, such as, "What could this person do to change this situation," or "What's the best advice I can give this person," then let the client draw a card from anywhere in the deck. Although, I tend to use this technique more with 3-5 card layouts than with big layouts like the CC.

The Final outcome in a celtic cross reading thread was originally posted on 29 Nov 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.