Intuition or reading from book?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Nov 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alice23	23 Nov 2004
Hi everyone, would like to know what everyone else thinks on this. Have been doing tarot readings for a while now and was told sometime ago by a clairvoyant to use my own intuition and NOT look/go on the book when it comes to the cards. Good advice i know......but still find it hard not to pick up the book and hey presto theres the meaning!! Has anyone got any advice on trying to read the cards intuitively, or do most people think that learning the meanings from the book is the best way?? Any ideas on how to do this would also be gratefully recieved, have heard about writing down when you do readings/study the cards what you FEEL the cards are saying to you, rather than get it from a book - what does everyone else think? Alice x

cheekyminx	23 Nov 2004
Firstly one needs to become familiar with the cards meanings, but after a while it just kind of flows and you won't need to pick up a book.....though sometimes I have blank moments and nothing comes to mind, then that's when I pick up a book. Go with your gut instinct, what do you feel the cards are telling you, or what do you feel about the situation, always keeping a non judgemental attitude. Hope this helps & good luck.

MarkMcElroy	23 Nov 2004
I think a lot of people position "learning from the book" and "reading intuitively" as polar opposites -- an "either - or" situation. On reflection, I'm not sure it has to be. As someone who works with Tarot daily as a brainstorming tool, I know from experience that, when you glance at the cards, the first impression that pops into your head can be extremely important. At the same time, why would I want to limit myself to first impressions? Intuition can be "fed," and with each feeding, it grows stronger. So, I like to study and apply every book I can get my hands on. The result? A note that intrigued me while reading the book for the Medieval Scapini book might cause me to see a coin on a card from another deck in an entirely different light. A paragraph from _Meditations on the Tarot_ may help me see and apply the Lovers trump in an entirely different way. I teach my students that every fact learned about Tarot amounts to another "hook" that can catch associations, ideas, and insights. While some are adamant that only one hook -- the intuitive one -- is really necessary, I prefer to carry as broad a variety of "idea bait" as I can!

Original Destiny	23 Nov 2004
there is no right or wrong way to it. you will find with time that you become more intuative and will probably need to use a book less and less. I have been working with Tarot cards for more years than I care to remember but I find myself turning to books now and then for fresh inspiration.Just use whatever you feel you need, if this means using books or a personal journal or intuition.. or a mix of all these

Francesca	23 Nov 2004
I agree; Both Francesca

Pipistrelle	23 Nov 2004
MarkMcElroy wrote: At the same time, why would I want to limit myself to first impressions? Intuition can be "fed," and with each feeding, it grows stronger. So, I like to study and apply every book I can get my hands on. I think Mark makes a good point here - the more information we digest on the cards, the more we have at our disposal when it comes to readings. If my intuition doesn't come up with anything pretty much straight away (it's usually triggered by a part of the image that seems to jump out) then I might turn to the books, but I try to keep the book-learnin' separate from my readings. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking meanings up in a book - there are many many cards which I still don't "get" and if I didn't look them up, none of my readings would make any sense :) IMO, intuition isn't just coming up with things out of thin air (although that does happen), it's also "sensing" which of the many, many interpretations you've read about is "right" in a particular reading. Many things contribute to intuitive reading - the images, the interaction between different cards in a reading, associations, words... Pip

le pendu	23 Nov 2004
I'll take it one step further... (I am, I believe, very much in the minority on this, so buyer beware!) I believe every deck has it's own language, well.. any "good" deck.. hee hee. Hopefully, the creator of a deck put a lot of time and effort into revealing their personal systems or insights into a deck. I suggest choosing a deck that really "speaks" to you and studying the deck, not "tarot". Read everything written by the author, or written about the deck, and develop a relationship with it. The intuition will come once you understand the language of the symbolism. I don't translate meanings from one deck to another. While it is true that you will develop your own system of interpretation, I try never to overlay that system until I have built a strong understanding of the deck's own unique language. Now, when I choose a deck for a reading, it is because I am choosing that deck *because* of it's language, rather than applying a general "High Priestess = Intuition and Hidden Meanings" interpretation on cards. Don't rush your journey, take your time and savour it. It is a long and wonderful road of discovery. best, robert

Red Emma	23 Nov 2004
This question, books vs intuition, is one of my pet peeves on Aecletic. When I first joined there were several discussions which left me feeling that only dolts and those who are 1) incompetent, and 2) losers, look up the card meanings in books. As a natural born QS with very little (maybe none) psychic ability, it bugged the hell out of me. Outside of this pronouncement, the thing I like most about ATF is that each person is encouraged to develop their own way of dealing with their decks and the wisdom they gain from them. Over the years my cards have served me well, helped me through some sticky spots and helped to avoid others. I hope I never have to give them up. I also will never give up my books -- "78 degrees of wisdom," and "Tarot Reversals" -- without them I'm very blind to tarot meanings. What worries me is that if new members read those "God Has Spoken" pronouncements, they'll think the just don't have the ability to do tarot. And give up, thereby losing a valuable guide through their lives.

TemperanceAngel	23 Nov 2004
I lean very heavily to the intuitive side, but I love books as well. A new insight and perspective is always welcome.... Edited to add: Meditation is the other way to gain insight on a card ;)

jmd	23 Nov 2004
For myself, I tend to encourage those around me to not use books when actually in the process of reading a spread, but to instead allow one's eyes, one's understanding that arises of the symbolic content, and one's sense for trusting that which seems to arise to be spoken out. This does not mean not to use any books - I suspect I have one of the better collections of Tarot books on the Forums (though undoubtedly not the broadest) - and certainly encourage all to broaden their own reading of and about Tarot (and other decks if one uses them). By all means read through the books, even read up the meanings of cards in practice readings, but also allow for the cards to be able to speak to us of their own accord. In our ever-so word oriented culture, this is often one of the most difficult things to do: to allow for the image, and the trusting into the apparent meaning, to be allowed to be narrated as it emerges in our own minds' reflective awareness.

Tarot Sparrow	23 Nov 2004
Well, I think both are helpful. But remember, the book meaning is not always right. Just because it says something IS, doesn't mean it will ALWAYS BE. Meanings change constantly in tarot cards depending on the situation, the spread, the reading, and the surrounding cards. Your intuition is the best guide when you are doing readings...as for LEARNING, I think it's helpful to use both. Journalling is also an excellent way to learn tarot.

firemaiden	23 Nov 2004
Well, as one who came to AT as a "tarot virgin" and learned everything basically from you guys, and from books, lol, I'm in no position to quarrel with anybody. :D ....and... the traditional books mostly tell you only how to interpret the RWS. So if you have a different deck you are still mostly on your own. (Well you can read the little blurbs in the LWB) Randomly choosing spots in a book for answers is bibliomancy... Once I characterized the approach of reading the little white book for meanings as "micro-blanco-bibliomancy" -- it is a form of divination all right - but it involves using the cards as a means to isolate the relevant portion of a book, and then reading the book for your answer. Keep practising and you will no longer need the cards. You can just chose a random paragraph in the book directly, and get the same results. Allowing the images themselves to trigger your reactions and thoughts is akin to reading the Roschach blobs. I find this the more rewarding approach, because it allows me the reader to create something of my own from what I see. No two card interpretations will ever be alike, and no two readings will ever be alike. IN the case of so-called "unillustrated pips" over which we have dug deep trenches and enjoyed many a rollicking good snow-ball fight right here on AT, I think you can still read the images -- in fact more so - because the configuration of coins, swords, wands, or cups, combined with the intertwining florilège are in fact very suggestive of all kind of ideas.

jlbvt	23 Nov 2004
le pendu wrote: I believe every deck has it's own language, well.. any "good" deck.. hee hee. Hopefully, the creator of a deck put a lot of time and effort into revealing their personal systems or insights into a deck. ... I don't translate meanings from one deck to another. While it is true that you will develop your own system of interpretation, I try never to overlay that system until I have built a strong understanding of the deck's own unique language. Now, when I choose a deck for a reading, it is because I am choosing that deck *because* of it's language, rather than applying a general "High Priestess = Intuition and Hidden Meanings" interpretation on cards. Don't rush your journey, take your time and savour it. It is a long and wonderful road of discovery. I agree with a lot of what Robert said. I have started to learn, after years of studying Tarot, that eack deck does have it's own launguage, and they don't always follow the same cookie-cutter meanings. Some decks have vivid images that speak literally (like Baroque Bohemian Cats, imo) Some have images that evoke emotion, leading you to feel the answer rather than see it (like the Thoth or Guardians of Wisdom.) But that said, I think that you can get some good ideas from books- especially the suit characteristics, numerology, etc. So I think a mix of both intuition and book knowledge is best. but if there's ever a conflict between the two, let your intuition guide you... You mentioned writing things down? Journaling helps a lot. If you need to jog your memory, go to your journal and read up on what the cards mean to you- it's the best of both worlds. Hope this helps! Joan

Vincent	24 Nov 2004
Alice23 wrote: Any ideas on how to do this would also be gratefully recieved, have heard about writing down when you do readings/study the cards what you FEEL the cards are saying to you, rather than get it from a book - what does everyone else think? Alice x Well... a journal is a book too. I suspect that the authors of Tarot books, Joan Bunning, Rachel Pollack, Mary Greer...etc, would say that you should read their books at least. But if we should be using our intuition, why not go the whole way, and trust it from start to finish? This is taken from Joan Bunning's site; "Consider for a moment a typical card in the tarot deck, the Five of Swords. This card shows a man holding three swords and looking at two figures in the distance. Two other swords lie on the ground. As I look at this card, I begin to create a story around the image. I see a man who seems satisfied with some battle he has won. He looks rather smug and pleased that he has all the swords. The others look downcast and defeated. What I have done is take an open-ended image and project a story onto it. To me, my view is the obvious one - the only possible interpretation of this scene. In fact, someone else could have imagined a totally different story. Maybe the man is trying to pick up the swords. He's calling to the others to help him, but they refuse. Or, maybe the other two were fighting, and he convinced them to lay down their arms. The point is that of all possible stories, I chose a certain one. Why? Because it is human nature to project unconscious material onto objects in the environment. We always see reality through a lens made up of our own inner state. Therapists have long noted this tendency and have created tools to assist in the process. The famous Rorschach inkblot test is based on such projection. Is there really any need to read the rest of the book? Once we get to this part, what further need do we have for books at all. Its simple; project our 'unconscious material' onto the cards, our intuition will kick in and do all the work, and the cards will speak to us, or maybe even shout at us. This method has the further advantage of being transferable to any deck whatsoever. And in order to get the full power of our intuition, couldn't the way to learning Tarot be condensed to a simple catchphrase such as, "become Kircher in the Hall of Kings", or "project and pontificate"? But, is there any good reason why our intuition should need even this gentle kick start? I wonder if anyone, in the history of Tarot reading, has ever just trusted their intuition from start to beginning. That is, just picked up a deck, thrown away the LWB, picked some cards out, and started to give readings. Of course this might put the Tarot (writing) industry into a sharp decline, but that needn't be seen as deleterious to the Tarot reader's interests. Vincent

firemaiden	24 Nov 2004
Interesting that Joan Bunning says that right in her book. Indeed - what need then, to read the rest of her book. I don't really know if I use "intuition" when I read the card images (or if I even know what intuition really is) and "project from the unconscious" -- I rather think reading is basically an act of raw creativity == just making it up.

Moonbow*	24 Nov 2004
I have read books and still do, but now that I am further down the line, I try to concentrate on just the cards. I tend to read a book that comes with a deck when I first get it, then when it's been read it sits on the shelf. Sometimes I go back to refer to it, but not often. I think that although the temptation is to get a quickie answer, that is not was Tarot is all about. There comes a time when you want to be on your own with your cards. I find that noticing many things around me, help me to read the cards. I am always looking at the sky, old buildings, nature. The more you notice around you, the more you notice in your cards.

TemperanceAngel	24 Nov 2004
Isn't Tarot also about reading imagery as opposed to words?

MarkMcElroy	24 Nov 2004
Vincent wrote: "What I have done is take an open-ended image and project a story onto it. To me, my view is the obvious one - the only possible interpretation of this scene ... The point is that of all possible stories, I chose a certain one. Why? Because it is human nature to project unconscious material onto objects in the environment. Is there really any need to read the rest of the book? Once we get to this part, what further need do we have for books at all? Vincent Perhaps we need them to continue expanding what our intuition can tell us? :) Right up front: if someone wants to base his or her card readings on nothing more than personal impressions and associations ... that's his or her right. By suggesting an alternative, I'm not casting aspersions on that choice -- just pointing out another path. For me, everything I know about a card becomes a hook on which my clients and I can hang new associations. That includes what stories or associations are suggested by the picture on the card, but it also includes: - ideas suggested by suit symbolism - ideas suggested by numeric symbolism - ideas suggested by the structure of the deck itself - ideas from myths or stories associated with the card - ideas from the card's creator - ideas associated with parallel cards from other decks - ideas associated with this card during past readings - ideas suggested by various authors over the years - ideas suggested by other readers - ideas from systems like that used by the Golden Dawn - ideas suggested by my own personal system Each fact I graft onto a card gives my readings an additional layer of depth and richness. These additional layers of meaning don't constrain what I can think or come up with; instead, they amplify what I can imagine, see, generate, or "intuit." So: from my perspective, books inform and reinforce intuition ... and intuition reinforces and forges connections between what I learn from books. I'm convinced that having access to both resources makes me, personally, a better reader than I would have been if I had chosen to rely on one to the exclusion of the other. :) Food for thought, Mark

jmd	24 Nov 2004
I suspect we are each in agreement that the past provides for much of the backdrop from which we step forward into a reading. Much of that includes what we have read from others, our shifting and developing understanding of the symbolic content of the individual cards - and their indications as a whole, and our general world-view and view of human nature. I do not think this was what was intended when asking the original question (nor am I suggesting that this is the way anyone has read the original post, by the way). With the reading at hand, right here and now, the question becomes: do I refer to books in order to read the spread's meaning, or do I allow myself to speak and allow the narrative to unfold of its own accord? Even there it appears we have various views. Some suggest (whether on the boards or off is not really important) that one is better off referring to the works of another and see what they have had to say - thereby developing a cohesive and common understanding of the suggested meanings of the symbolic content of the cards. Others suggest that even these very meanings are not as narrow as suggested by any books or posts, but rather far more fluid. Personally, I consider that the meanings of symbols, though indeed multilayered, are precise. Is this, however, what occurs in a reading? are we reading the precise meaning of the card, or is the situation at hand reflected in a singular form in the instance at hand, with the symbolic meaning being more as a backdrop, an underpinning, upon which the reading at hand may (perhaps) anchor? With the analogy of anchorage, what may be useful to consider is the whole ship morooned, or even the mermaid sitting upon rocks by the shoreline of King Arthur’s realm... the imaginative faculty (rather than fanciful thoughts) which becomes engaged stimulated by the imagery presented, in the context presented, in the very situation at hand. I personally do not agree that this is the projection of unconscious psychological states... but then, I do not consider the spiritual realm - nor its gentle whispers, to be mere psychological disposition.

Vincent	24 Nov 2004
jmd wrote: ...the imaginative faculty (rather than fanciful thoughts) This raises some questions. What, exactly, is "the imaginative faculty", and how should we separate it from "fanciful thoughts", or for that matter, intuition? And why should one be better, or more appropriate, regarding Tarot? jmd wrote: I personally do not agree that this is the projection of unconscious psychological states... Just to clarify; You do not agree, that what you believe is occurring during your own Tarot reading, is "the projection of unconscious psychological states", or you do not believe that this is what happens when a Tarot reader follows Joan Bunning's teachings? Vincent

jmd	25 Nov 2004
You ask some quite wonderfully difficult questions, Vincent. With regards to the last, my point may have been lost in the length of my convoluted sentence: I view a reading as of quite a different nature than what may happen when someone projects psychological repressions onto an image. In reference to the imaginative faculty, I once tried to characterise this a little in various posts - but one that comes to mind (and which the search feature helped me find) is in a thread started by Moonbow* some time back: Why is Tarot here??? If I had to try and distinguish between the imaginative faculty as a spiritual sense organ, as opposed to fanciful thoughts, I would have to begin by describing the movement from shape to related and deeply interconnected shape, as Goethe has previously suggested in his Metamorphosis of Plants (I quote a small extract from his book in this thread on the Eight of Coins). The suggestion is that the faculty allows for an actual and real sensing into the living transformation from form to form - hence the term used, 'metamorphosis'. In contrast to this Imaginative Faculty, which develops with a focussed but simultaneously relaxed state of care and attention to the image, 'fanciful thoughts' are instead what may be commonly referred to as 'wishful thinking' or, indeed, what may arise in the projection of repressed feelings onto any image as inappropriate receptacle.

Red Emma	25 Nov 2004
I'm still ticked, guys. Please listen. SOME people have an intuitive instinct about the meanings of cards, and have developed fascinating ways of interpreting them. Describe quite well how they found and nurtured this talent. NOW HERE'S THE KEY! Other people HAVE VERY LITTLE OR NONE. Nothing, nada, zip, of this talent. Do not believe that your way will work with everyone. It's like forcing a left hander to write with his right hand. My point is, read the cards in whatever way suits you. Do not put down others whose method is different. Do not believe if you just encourage them, they will see the light and switch to your way of doing things. What they're likely to do is feel stupid and without talent. Then just give up on tarot. In this question, I still believe that the Aecletic Tarot way is the very best. Let each person develop their individual, unique tarot skills in their own way. And do not judge those of us whose methods differ from what seems to be the norm in this community. Best bright blessings.

shadowdancer	25 Nov 2004
there are definitely two schools of thought here. I was taught the tarot many years ago by a guy who followed the traditional meanings in the main. However, he did tell us to add what our own instinct was telling us, when looking at where they are in a spread, relation to other cards etc. I am one of those who has no obvious psychic ability. In other words I am not aware of specific guidance etc. However, I would argue that if you are using the cards with integrity and honesty, you will be guided on a subtle level: you just don't realise it. If you take a look at how often you are accurate etc, there is something special going on right? (Just my take her guys!) Now when I do my readings I do the following: Dowse for the spread using a pendulum. I have a journal of approximately 79 I can choose from, so there is one to hit almost every eventuality. Dowse for the deck of cards to use. I think they are not chosen necessarily for the images or messages they have but rather for where the cards are within the deck. I believe the correct deck is chosen because when it is shuffled the cards are in EXACTLY the right place for the reading, leading to the precise and accurate information needed at that moment in time. I have 20 decks to choose from and the cards are all in a different order. (I hope this has made sense.. when re-reading I nearly confused myself !) I then in the main start off with the interpretation I have used over the years for each card, BUT do find that I tend to then elaborate a little depending on what I feel is 'right' or where it is within a spread. I suppose in that respect I use a little of both methods. Most of my current readings are on an internet forum for spiritually minded people. Therefore the only information I have is usually one sentence posted asking for a reading. The fact that most of the feedback is incredibly positive makes me realise there is something else behind the reading, other than my energy. Those of you who are obviously psychic will pin point it exactly. Me? I am just humbled that I am being supported in this way, even if it is not apparent. Not sure this has helped the debate but I do see value in both sides of the fence here.

shadowdancer	25 Nov 2004
and going on from that.... I do have sympathies with those who feel frustrated that they don't know where to begin. Or feel they have no intuition guiding them. I remember my first readings lasted all of 10 minutes before I dried up, frozen with panic that was a lousy tarot reader! I stuck just to what I had been taught for months, before realising I could just expand a little using my own thoughts on those teachings. Over time the readings increased in length to where I now do them for an hour at a time. Looking back though, it was incredibly daunting. BUt, I still use the traditional meanings as my main starter, regardless of the deck. One thing I will say though (and this is just my take not to be taken as THE way..) It is incredibly difficult to learn from reading a book. 78 cards is a lot, and to remember them all through just reading is a tall order. I was lucky that my teacher was a fun guy, easy going and very, very straightfoward in how he explained each card. To this day his words still are in my mind whenever I see the Mythic deck, which is what I learned with. To those of you who are new, and wanting to learn, it is hard work. But the journey is worth it. Find a way that suits you, and run with it. Good Luck! Davina

Alice	25 Nov 2004
I think people make this issue inceribaly complicated, you should do what feels right to you, if someone is uncertain about a card and wants to look it up in a book then it does no harm, it is just getting a second opinion. I tend to look through the cards, see what I think of them, write down my opinions and views and then if there are any cards that just are not making sense or I can't seem to see how they fit I look them, normally in more than 1 book. The way I see it is the more opinions and ideas you have on a card and the more approaches to it you are made aware of the more it helps you to decide how the card works for you. The idea that you can read a book on a deck and then use simply or intuiation (or whatever you want to call it) is just crazy, some part of the book will have stuck in your mnd and will in some way affect how you see the card. I also find the idea that everyone will react in some way, without reading anything, to all the cards is crazy, some cards just need a little work and reading to understand (and some people are no good at meditation!).

Umbrae	25 Nov 2004
Asl long as we remember that the authors are stating opinions and not facts…as an example from Mary K. Greer’s Tarot Reversals we find the passage, “Remember, the interpretations given in this book are only suggestions. Images on different decks, other cards in the spread, or personal intuitions and associations may suggest entirely new, more appropriate, meanings.” Wish more folks would read that.. However some folks actually memorize the books paragraphs and spew them out memorized - verbatim. Some folks will actually copy from a book and post the meanings in a reading here on this forum, taking the book as gospel. And if you’re as psychic as a lamppost? Hey that’s me sometimes…whaddya do? “Personal intuitions and associations may suggest entirely new…” said the lady… Dead Star stated, “…the book meaning is not always right. Just because it says something IS, doesn't mean it will ALWAYS BE. Meanings change constantly in tarot cards depending on the situation, the spread, the reading, and the surrounding cards.” Words worth remembering. Firemaiden’s post had me (this really happened) falling out of the chair I was laughing so hard (and in that spirit I open a LWB for the Etruscan…”So even if created by the Greek technique…” oh well – never mind). Personal associations may even vary between decks. Over time some meanings specific to deck B may migrate over to deck A and still remain valid. Over dependence upon an ‘expert’ with a published book may steer you away from your own creative base where you should be working from (now this is simply an opinion – lets not get too excited). Vincent asked, “I wonder if anyone, in the history of Tarot reading, has ever just trusted their intuition from start to beginning. That is, just picked up a deck, thrown away the LWB, picked some cards out, and started to give readings.” Uh…that’d be me. Is it for everybody? Once you find a way to get in touch with that inner-creative-you…yes. Over dependence on others, may be simply that. I remember in “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”, a student was having trouble with a writing assignment. The teacher said to start by writing about one thing. The student was ‘blocked’. The teacher said, write about the opera building (forcing the student to focus on ONE thing). The student was still blocked. So the teacher told the student to focus on ONE brick of the opera building. The student handed in one of the better assignments. Reading a book written by another provides focus for us. Unfortunately it is the author’s focus we are yoked with. Journaling will provide you with focus built around you and your perceptions.

firemaiden	25 Nov 2004
Umbrae wrote: Firemaiden’s post had me (this really happened) falling out of the chair I was laughing so hard (and in that spirit I open a LWB for the Etruscan…”So even if created by the Greek technique…” oh well – never mind). :D :D :D (FM lives for the laughs) You know I've seen on the bookshelves, an "oracle book" -- you just turn to a random page - each one has some kind of "fortune" on it. Its right next to that "intant tarot" thing - a spiral bound book with tarot fortunes written out. You just turn to a random page, and voilà! Just and water and stir. And then there is Hajo Banzhaff's "Tarot Handbook" - with a seven card spread, and pre-processed interpretations ready to go for each card in each of the seven positions. No interpretive skill required!! (lucky for me, mine's in German.. it would take me a week to decipher each paragraph) It's kind of like those frozen food diet dinners. As (personal humor hero) Dave Barry puts it, they come with most of the food already eaten for you.

tmgrl2	25 Nov 2004
Ok....this thread got my out of "lurk" mode, since I've been a bit "off" lately (many here might say I'm more than a bit off, and not just lately). Now I'm ROFLMHO... The more I read about Tarot, the more I read Tarot, the less I know about anything. I don't even have a clue what is going on when I read. I do have this belief, though,that we can tap into something sacred with it. I read books like crazy when I first started in February....and wouldn't do readings that didn't have something from some book somewhere in it, or something from some online search. Can't say as it hurt me. Certainly I want to and still do to study the history and the iconology and I want to work a bit more with numbers. When I read, now, though, since I'm doing more live readings, I just take deep breath, go to a quiet place inside and say what comes to me.. hopefully, in a loving fashion. I will probably dig through some of the many books I have purchased and find some "gems" of wisdom I like. Usually, it's the part in the book, though, where the author says something like..."no right or wrong...no one has the key to the one true interpretation..." or some such statement. "Why am I reading this?" I ask, as I slam the book shut. I bought this book to find the one, true path of interpretation. Not going to happen. Then, I find myself, yet again, reading another book about Tarot. I have been giving books away. Some after a quick read, some after a skimming. I do have some I like and I do think I am learning things that are internalizing.... Mostly, now, when I read, I just do it. I really think nobody has answers to so many of these questions that get posed over and over. Wouldn't we all love to be able to drive up one day to a store that said, Like, I want some dead person to really come back and talk to me and tell me what's going to happen when I die. I want to KNOW where I am going. I want TRUTH....but, then, maybe we don't know THE TRUTH for a reason. What would we have to learn? What would we discuss? What would we argue about? Wouldn't the world be boring with just ONE TRUE WAY. So on second thought, I probably wouldn't even enter that store. Only Stephen King would try to get away with a place like that....and we know what goes on in his books. I have been reading John Edward's books and exploring mediumship a bit. I'm setting up my three signals with Tony, so if he predeceases me, he is supposed to send me these signals...all three (It took Edward nine years to get the three from his mother) so that I know Tony is OK over there. If I go first, same three signals. So, Alice23, like the famous Alice who fell down the hole and wound up in Wonderland, maybe you just need to leap in and meet the challenges of Tarot as they present themselves to you along the way. Find your own style and find a method that works. I really believe that if, for some reason, we aren't meant to stick with the Tarot, we will just walk away from it one day. If we are, its light will continue to draw us in and shine forth from us as we use it and somehow, we just "know" that we should be doing this....reading the Tarot. Off to Thanksgiving dinner...have some of my flyers in the car and two reading decks....just in case. terri

jmd	25 Nov 2004
tmgrl2, I think I have this book on my shelf somewhere (ie, )... I'll see if I can find it. From memory, and though it wasn't wrong in any part, it had what must have been regular typographical misprints, and parts out of sequence, which seemed to alter the intended meaning. I remember thinking that I really should send an e.mail to the author to have her opinion on these, but could not locate her address... if you have it, please let me know. On a more serious note (ie, Bb rather than C#), the reading of books is of course encouraged. I would suggest that it is not so much the 'intuition' that RedEmma or others seem to suggest is absent that is at issue, but rather whether or not an understanding of the individual cards develops over time. If I asked, for example, what the Lovers meant generally, or the Chariot, or Justice, then I am certain that each person, no matter whether or not there is a preference for reading the suggested meaning in someone else's book, would be able to explain what the card generally seems to suggest... and that is based on a developing understanding of the card itself (of course usually via the processes of reading, discussing, and reflecting). The key words (for me at any rate) herein used is not 'suggested meaning', but 'developing understanding'.

Vincent	25 Nov 2004
jmd wrote: In contrast to this Imaginative Faculty, which develops with a focussed but simultaneously relaxed state of care and attention to the image, 'fanciful thoughts' are instead what may be commonly referred to as 'wishful thinking'... My question was really asking whether this was the same Netzach-like "imaginative faculty" referred to by, amongst others, Golden Dawn initiates, and used in their various practises, and which is quite distinct from that which they term the "intuitive faculty". For instance, using the "imaginative faculty" one might imagine the form of Isis about ones own body for the purpose of gaining some insight into one's own (supposed) spark of divinity. Your definition appears to be somewhat similar, but please correct me if I have it wrong. This, and what you appear to be describing, would certainly come under the literal, though maybe not colloquial, tag of "wishful thinking". Thinking just doesn't come any more wishful than the way the Golden Dawn used their "imaginative faculty", but I think I understand the distinction you are making between this and the definition below jmd wrote: ...or, indeed, what may arise in the projection of repressed feelings onto any image as inappropriate receptacle. (Does "inappropriate" refer to the image or the receptacle?) So the questions all this leads to are; is there any reason the "imaginative faculty" should take precedence, in a Tarot reading, over fanciful thoughts, wishful thinking, or what Joan Bunning calls the projection of unconscious material onto a card? are there any problems a newbie Tarot reader should be aware of with either method, or indeed, problems with any method? Vincent

tmgrl2	25 Nov 2004
jmd wrote: ....no matter whether or not there is a preference for reading the suggested meaning in someone else's book, would be able to explain what the card generally seems to suggest... and that is based on a developing understanding of the card itself (of course usually via the processes of reading, discussing, and reflecting). The key words (for me at any rate) herein used is not 'suggested meaning', but 'developing understanding'. Alas, jmd, if ever I did have my hands on such a book as the one we mentioned, I probably would not have recognized it as such and, in my haste, sent it by way of Castle Rock, Maine, into some parallel universe, where those who know the Truth when they see it, have it ever ready to quote. Alice....jmd pretty much sums up here, on a serious note, what I find to be my "way." It has been the reading of books, the discussion of card elements and images, and the reflection on cards both during Tarot readings and through the studying of threads that builds on an inner ever-growing understanding of this wondrous gift of Tarot. I love learning, and I have many books on Tarot yet to read or skim, some that I wish to read in-depth like Meditations on the Tarot. This is who I am, a life long learner. I believe the Greeks spoke of paideia a concept that encompasses a scope of learning that is life-long, that involves community, dialogue, study and above, all, includes the purpose of growing up into a society where one values respectful, democratice dialogue, one that teaches its members to have a good life and to be a good citizen of the world through the process of lifelong learning. So, within this framework, I place my studies of Tarot and hope that as each year passes, I build within myself, a place for Tarot that nurtures my spirit and gives me a gift that I can share with others through studying and through Tarot readings. Blessings, terri

Satori	30 Nov 2004
Ah, the inevitable intuition thread. I wonder what would happen if suddenly all of the books written about Tarot, and all the systems that are credited as being part of Tarot's origins just disappeared, you know, like that series, where people go missing on planes and stuff? And all that was left was the decks. No LWBs either, just the decks. What would happen? What kind of mad chaos would ensue? I used to read all the meanings in the books when I was reading. And I still do sometimes, read the books and study symbol sets... I noticed something. Some cards remain a bit of a mystery to me. I don't remember the traditional meanings and I haven't hit on an intuitive meaning yet. So they are sort of the blank spots in the deck...and that is where I need to work. On the blank spots. They represent to me places in my own spiritual development that require my attention. (I remember a time not long ago that I would never have admitted that on this forum...hmm. Lookey lookey...) So, for me, when the book learning fails me, when the flow sort of trickles to a dusty place, I have to ask the person I'm reading for what they think. Oh, the horror! The horror! Yes, the heart of darkness...but no one has ever been put out, because they feel included. So. Don't worry. Just read the cards, involve the sitter and have fun.

jmd	01 Dec 2004
Thanks Elf for adding to this thread... as a consequence I realised I had also missed a question posed by Vincent about the imaginative faculty and the GD's usage of something similar in the tasks of developing one's faculties. I do not work GD-style, but have some experience in the same, and also consider that overlap results in various disciplines, though the specifics are not only different, but differently linked. In the GD Netzachian mode, what appears to be of importance is more of a style of overshadowing waters; an immersion where the emotional waters of Venusian qualities brings about a victorious engagement in awareness to what is at issue. I of course am quite willing to be corrected in this. The 'Wishful thinking', in that sense, brings about the thinking into a will-full, and hence wish-full state which may indeed bring about magical transformations in the world. The imaginative faculty I sought to describe, however, is both distinct and has overlapping elements. The overlapping elements are those that allows for an active image-ing of what is at hand. The distinction is that in what I describe as the Imaginative Faculty there is not the state of emotional empathetically charged at-one-ness towards which one heads in the 4=7 sphere of GD workings. The relaxed, and virtually detached clarity of imagination is one in which the observer is able to observe without engagement or overshadowing. This is distinct, in my view, from intuition, in which an empathetic state is also attained. Elf brings an important question which has a direct bearing on all this: what would indeed happen were all books that seek to explain tarot be missing? The reply to this is precisely what many of us seek to encourage: to actually study and look at the cards in sequence, in pairs, in groups... and individually in minutia of detail, and compare and read about other iconographically similar depictions in other places (eg, mediaeval and renaissance art, 'gothic' Cathedrals, etc). The imagery used in Tarot then begins, with reflection, to speak its own language.

contradiction	03 Dec 2004
when i first started reading sooo many years ago, several friends who read, told me get the book, become familiar with it, and chunk it. i became familiar with it and keep it beside me at all times. i try to "feel" the card, listen to it, but sometimes i draw a blank, or just don't understand. at those times, even when doing a professional reading, i will say something like "how does the book phrase this", this way i don't look like an idiot. contradiction

NewWithCards	06 Dec 2004
i think you just need to main idea of the meaning, and go into detail by yourself, depending on what's happening with the querrent...i've just been staring at the cards, i dont know why, but facial expressions and postures seem to come out at me i was just staring at the king of wands, and it looked like he was looking outward....waiting for something

Clau	06 Dec 2004
I'm so not in the mood for a philosophical discussion *grin*, so I'll tell you my experience, hoping it would help... I've been in touch with tarot for 6 years or so now, and at the beggining I used the book a LOT since i did stare at the cards, FOR HOURS getting nothing, and I mean nothing! Sometimes I felt so frustrated, and I felt as magical and intuitive as a sidewalk... I read a lot of books (I still do) and they really helped me to understand and memorize the "meaning" of the cards. Many books have different approaches to each card, and that is confusing and frustrating, but after a while, you start getting the sense of the card.... There are many meanings to each one: straight, reversed, next to other card, etc, I was very confused at first, but then I discovered my "intiuitive" side picked up one or two main ideas for each card, and that was enough! After many years i've come to read the cards without help, but there are still cards that aren't that clear to me such as the hanged man, the star, the moon, the high priest, so I have to study them over and over again...from my books! All this time I've been working with the major arcana, the other day I decided to start with the minor and so I tried to do a reding including only the court cards, and there I was again...totally blank! so, back to the old books! My experince is that intuition comes with hard work, reading, studiying, posting in forums like this, and also, when one is new in anything insecurity is a big issue to overcome. If you have the time/money, join a study group, I did for two years, and it really helped me to get the hang of it. hope this helps! love, Claudia

GrigoriArella	11 Dec 2004
For me, augmenting my readings of tarot cards with books is similar to the way I read, say, classic literature. You don't read a book with a guide next to you, or with critical interpretations right there. You read it, and you get a feel for how you feel about the characters, the plot, and the author's intent. Then maybe you can go and see what other writers have said about that book, you read literary criticism, theory, and essays on characters and plot. You see what you agree with, and what you don't. And then, on a second reading of the book, you are aware of these other meanings, other possible interpretations. You still remember your initial reaction to the book and the elements within, but now you can say "well professor so-and-so thought there was an interesting parallel here, what do I think is happening?" Books and essays and interpretations can help you develop a personal understanding of a work, or a tarot deck, by allowing you to see how others view the cards. Then, you can pick out what you agree with, what you disagree with, and maybe come to a collaborative meaning. Maybe this analogy only works for me, but my use of books on tarot is really similar to the way I read literature.

tatsi	12 Dec 2004
cheekyminx wrote: Firstly one needs to become familiar with the cards meanings, but after a while it just kind of flows and you won't need to pick up a book.....though sometimes I have blank moments and nothing comes to mind, then that's when I pick up a book. Go with your gut instinct, what do you feel the cards are telling you, or what do you feel about the situation, always keeping a non judgemental attitude. Hope this helps & good luck. I agree you should first become familiar with the cards meaning, after that you try your hand at intuition. Over time the information from the two sources (books & intuition) will merge and you will either agree, tweek or alter the meanings your got from a book (or books). When you do have a blank moment you can read the book's meaning to help you decide what the card means to you. tatsi

tatsi	12 Dec 2004
MarkMcElroy wrote: From my perspective, books inform and reinforce intuition ... and intuition reinforces and forges connections between what I learn from books. I'm convinced that having access to both resources makes me, personally, a better reader than I would have been if I had chosen to rely on one to the exclusion of the other. :) This is exactly what I mean. I could not have stated this better myself. tatsi

Little Baron	12 Dec 2004
When I first started to learn, I wanted a book that would guide me through the cards; telling me everything that I needed to know about each and how I could learn to read. I realised, after purchasing many that this book didn't exist. These days, I tend to not read the books that much; probably because since I know a little more than I did then, I see the authors interpretations to be no more significant than the ones I have formed myself. I am currently using 'Understanding the Tarot Court'. This book is different in that it is prompting me to work with the cards in the deck I am using; posing questions etc, rather than telling me what I should be thinking. I agree with what Mark says - I did research a base meaning for the cards initially and still research now (even though I log on here more than I reach to the bookshelf). My intuition is probably stronger now that I have read a lot of stuff and understand the system of tarot a lot more than I did. Because I am using 'pip' decks right now, and have been for a while, aside from numerology and relating the minors to the majors etc, I do rely a lot on intuition. As I say, my biggest resourse is here. I am getting the Cary-Yale Visconti for Christmas and I love reading the posts in the Historic section (Catboxers, Jmd's, Rustys and Ceruleans - to name a few offhand) have been very interesting and useful for my study. Yabs

CloeCat	12 Dec 2004
When get a new deck I look it over first, I look at it an see what pick up right away and whats not farmiler, then I look in the book not for meanings, but for details on the simbolism in the pictures. Then I connect with my intuition for a meaning. In a reading I stick with what I feel or pick up, no books. When I started with Tarot, books fustrated me so would go with what I felt during a reading, until I read the book "A magic course on tarot." Then I focus on simbols and what I felt and have been improving ever sence. Many purrrs, CloeCat

mac22	12 Dec 2004
MarkMcElroy wrote: I teach my students that every fact learned about Tarot amounts to another "hook" that can catch associations, ideas, and insights. While some are adamant that only one hook -- the intuitive one -- is really necessary, I prefer to carry as broad a variety of "idea bait" as I can! I find the broader base of ideas & insights you have/can get the better.

SunChariot	15 Dec 2004
Alice23 wrote: Hi everyone, would like to know what everyone else thinks on this. Have been doing tarot readings for a while now and was told sometime ago by a clairvoyant to use my own intuition and NOT look/go on the book when it comes to the cards. Good advice i know......but still find it hard not to pick up the book and hey presto theres the meaning!! Has anyone got any advice on trying to read the cards intuitively, or do most people think that learning the meanings from the book is the best way?? Any ideas on how to do this would also be gratefully recieved, have heard about writing down when you do readings/study the cards what you FEEL the cards are saying to you, rather than get it from a book - what does everyone else think? Alice x You can't pick up a book and presto there is the meaning. The book can give you ideas, and an approximation of the meaning. But the meaning of a card is affected by many thing: its position in the spread, the question asked, the other cards surrounding it.... and many many other things. No book can take that into account, as a book does not know what spread you are using or where the card came up....The book meaning is not THE meaning. It is not written in stone. It just gives you some ideas to jump start your imagination. Bar

SunChariot	15 Dec 2004
P.S. And imho, the meanings you find inside yourself, that you feel in your soul and your heart have much more meaning when doing a reading... Bar

SunChariot	15 Dec 2004
Here are my feelings about your question. I think in a reading you need to remember that it is YOUR feelings and intuitions that are most important. When you are looking at a card in a reading, the card is like visual poetry. I think that is the best definition I have ever heard. Tarot IS visual poetry. When you look at a card every little thing in has meaning, each colour, pattern, image, body language. Everything. Anything in it can be analysed like poetry in school :-) and leant from. It's about looking at it as a whole and in its parts and learning to "feel" what it means for you. Think of all the potential meanings and when something feels "right" to you, when you get that "aha" feeling, then you're on the right track. :-) And it does get easier with time of course. It's about finding that little voice in you, your intuition, and learning to listen and trust it, and grow from it. When you look at a card, what YOU think it means is exactly what it means for you. You have to learn to trust that, to learn to trust your intuition. That is what Tarot is about. And the way you learn to trust it, is by using and developing it, and by seeing how accurate your readings are. You don't have to look at the book meanings at all actually. Many people never do, but if you do (and I do too actually) remember that it is only an addition to what you think the cards mean, not a replacement. If it doesn't mesh, it is the book meanings you need to discard, not your own. Or better still write down both in your Tarot journal, and months from now when you look back at it with different eyes, sometimes you see something in the book readings that makes sense that you did not realize before. Book meanings of course. have to be quite broad and cover a lot of ground. The book does not know your question and the question you ask changes the answer you will get as does the card's position in a spread, so a book tries to cover everything the card could ever possibly mean. Some of it may be relevant to your question, some may not. And that's normal. And remember the author of your book is not inside your subconscious and never can be. You are the best one to know what feels right to you and what doesn't. Each of us has our own experiences that effect how we view the world. Just as a small example, if there were an image of a dog in the card, the book could say that it means loyalty, friendliness...but if you had been attacked by a dog as a child, it would more likely symbolize fear for you. The message you get in your cards will come to you in a form that will be accessible to YOUR subconsious. Two people can receive the same message in the form of a different card altogether. But the message will come to each of us in a form designed to make sense to each of our own individual subsonciouses. I'm not saying that the book meanings are wrong or that they can't offer valuable insight, just they are not written in stone. You need to feel which parts are valid and which aren't, you know? Sometimes you will find that some of the book meanings apply and some don't. And that's fine. Look at the card first and find your meaning, then if you look at the book meanings you can keep the parts that make sense to your reading and reject the rest. In case you find it helpful, I can tell you what I do and that it has worked well for me. Take it or leave it, it is just advice not anything more. :-) But for me, what I do when I pull card card is write down EVERYTHING I notice in it. I take notes on absolutely everything I see in the image: the colour blue, the colour red, circles, bubbles, snakes, a river (is it flowing slowly or quickly?) clouds, textures, patterns..... everything I see and notice, this is good for at least 10 minutes. Then I take my list and write next to it what each of those could symbolize in relation to my question. Blue could mean cold (like ice) or the blue of a lake on a hot summer's day. The imagery in the same card can easily change from one reading to the next (another reason to be a bit wary of the book meanings). It is not set in stone either. Clouds could remind me of being a child and carefree with the time to lie on my back and watch the clouds pass...or of rain...It all depends, and it's about keeping the question in mind and FEELING which meanings apply. ONLY after I have my list of everything I see in the card and everything I can see each could possibly mean, then I go see the book meanings to see if I can find any addictional insight there, By then I have like 2 pps of typed notes per card. Then you just have to pull all the notes together into a coherent answer. Which in my case tends to be 2-3 pps long,LOL and which I have always found very very useful. And I go back and reread my old readings all the time and they still help me a lot. I hope this info helps, Bar

tmgrl2	15 Dec 2004
So....I read the books and take what I want and read discussions here and add a little more, forget a lot from both the books and the posts...(I'm pretty new to reading Tarot myself) Then I do a "live" reading! Helloooo....no books at hand. I still remember seeing the 6 of Wands coming up with my Gilded Tarot deck in the "root" position of my own 4 of Swords and Shield of Love Spread. I was reading for a teacher at one of my schools. She had never had a reading and seemed quite fascinated with the whole idea....a recent widow...didn't seem that happy.... I remember vaguely that the other cards seemed to bring forward quite clear impressions of meanings for me, but I kept looking at that doggone 6 of Wands.... Then I said, "As to what is going on inside, what lies beneath??? "Not much....there isn't much in there going on at all. You are kind of stuck with anything creative in your life. You need to get something going for you that you can be passionate about." This was actually the first card I was supposed to read, but I just couldn't so I came back to it at the end and said that until she became alive again, she wouldn't be able to move away from this position of stagnation. I don't have a clue where that came from and still don't. (tmgrl runs off to look up 6 of Wands again in some LWB somewhere...one she hasn't burned, buried, given away or tossed out). She shook her head, though, and said... "You are right. Since my husband died, it's as though everything has stopped inside and I haven't moved away from that time in any positive way for myself." So, ultimately, reading books is good, reading here at AT is good. When you have that person sitting in front of you, though, and that card comes up, the one that you look at and say to yourself, "What the h....does this mean here?" you haven't moved from the academic to the intuitive/empathic domain. Once you do, though, while previously learned meanings come into play( basic meanings that most would accept for Trumps and suits and even numbers,) the real deal is when some wild meaning jumps up at you from a card and you say to yourself...."Where did I get that?" I love this! When it happens and the door opens because I am patient, I look off to the side, I shush the sitter as I meditate on the card, I get ..... something and that leads to an idea or image and the words become a message and that becomes the story. It's magical. terri

SunChariot	16 Dec 2004
tmgrl2 wrote: the real deal is when some wild meaning jumps up at you from a card and you say to yourself...."Where did I get that?" I love this! When it happens and the door opens because I am patient, I look off to the side, I shush the sitter as I meditate on the card, I get ..... something and that leads to an idea or image and the words become a message and that becomes the story. It's magical. (Edited to add: I just posted this, went back to reread and noticed it is my 3000th post...see, magical!) terri Terri, I know exactly what you mean. Very good point, and beautifully put. I only read for myself, but I have that experience too. I start to find answers inside me I never knew were there, and they just flow out and are totally accurate and profound... It's truly magical, and awe-inspiring. It is one of the more beautiful parts of reading Tarot. When you can truly feel your connection to something greater than yourself, even for just a moment of two.:-) And no, of course you could never experience that just looking up meanings in a book. Bar

Alice23	20 Dec 2004
Thanks everyone for your replies! Certainly wasnt expecting so many! All very interesting on how everyone reads the cards, whether with, alongside or not at all in regards to the book. Has certainly made me think,as well, about how I read the cards, especially Sun's last posts, I think you're right, the symbolism means so much about a card, and the more I study them the better I can interpret them to a situation. Thanks all again! Alice x

The Intuition or reading from book? thread was originally posted on 23 Nov 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.