Intention vs. Divination

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	06 Dec 2004
I've been reading, advice of a friend, "The Power of Intention" by Wayne Dyer. What I find so powerful is the advice to ask of oneself "what do I intend to create?" It returns the responsibilty back to us, instead of someone out there. Puts it back to CHOICE. "Does Billy-Bob like me?" (Well, what do you intend to create?) "Will I succeed in this next audition?" (Well, what do you intend to create?) et coetera... But ...but...but... then where does that leave divination and tarot? Perhaps... just perhaps -- instead of asking the cards "Does Billy-Bob like me...?" or "How will my audition go?" and then laying out a spread, and agonizing, oooh, argh, maybe he does and maybe he doesn't... there's a three of swords, so he hates me, but there's the ace of cups, so he loves me... oh argh ... or "there's the 6 of wands reversed so I'm going to fail, oh argh... but here's the world so I'm going to succeed, oooh argh, what's it going to be.. Instead of asking the tarot for an answer, shouldn't we instead be telling the cards our intentions? Instead of shuffling the deck, asking the universe to intervene at random, like helpless victims, shouldn't we be going through the deck face up, CHOOSING and laying out the the cards we want, based on what we intend to create.? Doesn't "Intention" put divination out of business?

Alissa	06 Dec 2004
I'm reading that one too, but it's slow going. I must admit I put it down (guess I intended to create more time for myself to draw for my next henna book than sit and read). But I like your philosophic question, fire. :) I would ask... Isn't it also called "Spell Working" to intentionally manifest what you intend? What about the role of magic in pulling the intended bunny from the intended hat to create an intended result? And to myself, I'd say: what if you do this intention/magic/whatever stuff and it doesn't need a name, because names categorize it, and it isn't about categorization or rationalization or compartmentalization? If we chose an issue to read on, and then chose the cards to create the right spread and mixture for the "right" flow of energy to assist in an intended result... would that be a "Spell?" (I should add, I have always thoughts of spells, regardless of props/words, as simply "the purposeful direction of intended will toward a desired outcome").

Diana	06 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: Doesn't "Intention" put divination out of business? You know, firemaiden, in the majority of my spreads, I have a position called "Advice". This is what provides the "Intention". But as I am too much of a human being to know what is good for me, I prefer not to always decide myself. Error is SUCH a human trait. You know.... sometimes (no, often) what we want, what we intend, is not what is necessarily good for us. And we can screw up our lives real bad that way. I prefer to leave certain decisions to The Tarot. I feel a lot safer that way.... Now of course, if I don't FOLLOW the advice in order to change the course my life is taking, then I'm a bloody fool. Even in my simple Past/Present/Future spreads, which is what I use 90% of the time, the "Present" usually indicates, or at least includes, the Advice.

jumptothemoonyea	06 Dec 2004
intent is linear, directed @ some physical to_be_or_not_to_be_reality divination, with tarot cards, multidimensional, 78*N(images)=points of view

Alissa	06 Dec 2004
Diana makes an excellent point. Sometimes what we want, RIGHT NOW!, can be akin to a temper tantrum. There is an amount of responsibility and careful selection, I think, when putting forth our Intentions. Having the Tarot, as a Cosmic Objective Source, if you will, is *very* helpful in projecting ahead.

Alissa	06 Dec 2004
jumptothemoonyea wrote: intent is linear, directed @ some physical to_be_or_not_to_be_reality divination, with tarot cards, multidimensional, 78*N(images)=points of view And jumptothemoonyea I just loved this. What a succinct way of putting it. :D

rachelcat	06 Dec 2004
Intention does not but divination out of business because "the best laid plans" don't always work out. Conscious intention, whether just hoping and wishing or meditating and spell casting, doesn't always work (at least the way we think it will/want it to). Getting a peek at what may come and definitely getting advice as to what to do about it will never go out of style!

Seed Crystal	06 Dec 2004
:) I think hardly anyone, if anyone, totally understands and is aware of all their intentions. I think increasing awareness of intentions is empowering, something Tarot can do, something it does at its best. I think no being exists in isolation from others, or in isolation from its own past, so intentions are complex. And this protects us from our own foolishness, to some degree.

TemperanceAngel	06 Dec 2004
Sometimes when I do a reading and there is a card in there that's a bit of a pain in the butt, I do the reading and then talk to my client about it. That's only appropriate if they are the kinda client who likes to chat :D Anyways, I then turn the card over so you can't see the image anymore and then talk about the cards again without that image and give my client a choice of what they want. In that process then I am not telling them what to do and they see that they have the power to change things....we all have choices. So would you say that I am facilitating divination or intention?

Rhiannon	06 Dec 2004
Well, I think many of us learn intuitively or instinctively that it's all about our intentions. So, we learn to re-phrase our questions. When beginning to read and lacking practive and experience, we ask questions like "Does Billy-Bob like me?" With experience and more knowledge we instictively/intuivitely begin to ask "What may happen if I pursue a relationship with Billy-Bob?" The divination then offers a glimpse into the future of the intention. :)

Major Tom	07 Dec 2004
Great question Firemaiden. :) firemaiden wrote: Doesn't "Intention" put divination out of business? The answer is emerging and would appear to be no - divination works well with intention. ;) rachelcat wrote: Conscious intention, whether just hoping and wishing or meditating and spell casting, doesn't always work (at least the way we think it will/want it to). As rachelcat says, the best laid plans etc. Seed Crystal wrote: I think hardly anyone, if anyone, totally understands and is aware of all their intentions. Seed Crystal makes an excellent point too. How many people live a completely conscious existance, fully aware of everything that passes through their heads? I certainly know that I'm not there - even if it is my intention. :laugh: Diana wrote: You know.... sometimes (no, often) what we want, what we intend, is not what is necessarily good for us. Diana makes a good point too. I couldn't begin to count the number of times in my life that having once achieved an objective I found that I didn't really want it after all. :laugh: Rhiannon wrote: Well, I think many of us learn intuitively or instinctively that it's all about our intentions. So, we learn to re-phrase our questions. The divination then offers a glimpse into the future of the intention. I think Rhiannon has it precisely. It is a matter of personal responsibility. ;) Let's look at your example (which is a good start for spellwork by the way): firemaiden wrote: Instead of shuffling the deck, asking the universe to intervene at random, like helpless victims, shouldn't we be going through the deck face up, CHOOSING and laying out the the cards we want, based on what we intend to create? I would advise divination prior to this step. Ask the universe what the outcome of your intented creation will be. It's not about being a 'victim', it's about being informed. Armed with knowledge of the outcome, you are then able to accept the responsibility for your creation prior to the creative act. If your reading tells you it will all go horribly wrong, you can then re-examine your intent. When your reading tells you it will all go as you plan (or close enough), you can go for it. ;) For me, divination whether by tarot or any other method, is about getting the information you need to produce the outcomes you desire.

Phoenix Rising	07 Dec 2004
FireMaiden and her thought provoking questionsLOL The Divination techniques are only showing what your intention is. If you think this or intend that, this could well be the outcome. But questions like "Does Billy Bob Like me" is exempt from our own intentions because our will is not there's. I would not be able to give intention for Billy Bob to like me, if he doesn't desire it. But the intentions for things that are in our control could be, but not necessarily the way i thought. If I don't like the outcome of a question, I will change it's course another way. We create our reality afterall. Reading over what I've just written I'm not sure if I've made any sense. Hahaha.

dadsnook2000	07 Dec 2004
Asking the right question or placing/creating an appropriate card position in the spread addresses the "intention" issue: ** What do I need to know in order to . . ." is clearly stating an intention as well as asking for guidance that supports that intention. ** What resources will I need, or need to know of, in order to . . ." is another "intention" question. ** Having a resource card position within a spread sort of includes an intention statement but not necessarily. I don't think we often include a "goal" card in our layouts. I guess this will require us, now that we know about it, to think about modifying our practice -- that is, if we intend to grow as taroists. Dave.

Umbrae	07 Dec 2004
We have the potential to lead such wonderful lives – being not simply houses for sparks – but in actuality created in the image according to some theologies… The spittin’ image. So why do we have such problems? If I was born with all this potential – what the hell happened? What happened to you? Ego. And Tarot helps us bring the ego in line with true intention…helps clear the connections to the meta-pattern, to the source. Really, what you really were asking dearest CombustionQueen is a sub-question to…”Why do you read Tarot?” and “Why do they come to you?” Both are questions I’ll be addressing in Melbourne in July. Ego…it’s what makes us human – and allows us to stand completely apart from a deity we may even desperately believe in. Ego…the thing that allows us to stand in our own way and deny ourselves what we truly desire. Ego…like a little doggie, wherever he goes – egos. Tarot reveals….

firemaiden	07 Dec 2004
Oh what wonderful answers! (The CombustionQueen loves to see people thinking, she says rubbing her hands together gleefully) When I wrote my post, I had to suppress an instinct to write "Please say no" at the end of it, thinking, no no, I mustn't influence them. Surely one person will say yes? LOL (Why would we put ourselves out of business?) And yet... I do think it does at least behoove us to do, as Dave said, and ask questions that support intention. I know, my examples were silly, because who ever asks such dorky question as "Does Billy Bob like me?" and yet... Yet I must own, I suspect that such simple questions as "Am I loved", and "Will I succeed" are usually the true "stealth" question underneath sophisticated spreads. But no, Firemaiden -- are ye daft? surely you can see - the 78 cards are a much more sophisticated a form of divination than peeling the petals off a daisy.. (il m'aime, il ne m'aime pas, il m'aime, pas, il m'aime, pas....il m'aime!). Therefore, what is different? Umbrae, you said that reading brings one closer to source. Quote: And Tarot helps us bring the ego in line with true intention…helps clear the connections to the meta-pattern, to the source. Perhaps reading is like stripping the daisy in that it allows us to to pull back the ego-leaves of the soul-cabbage to access the source - where the intentions of our truth lie...

jumptothemoonyea	07 Dec 2004
love all the points of view :) firemaiden wrote: Therefore, what is different? intention is about moving the energy divination is ALL aspects of energy

Major Tom	07 Dec 2004
jumptothemoonyea wrote: love all the points of view :) intention is about moving the energy divination is ALL aspects of energy OOOH! God is Everything! :D God knows I love this place. ;)

Major Tom	07 Dec 2004
Umbrae wrote: …”Why do you read Tarot?” and “Why do they come to you?” Both are questions I’ll be addressing in Melbourne in July. …. Why do I hear the song, "Like Humans do"? Be there or be square. :laugh:

Imagemaker	07 Dec 2004
Quote: intention is about moving the energy divination is ALL aspects of energy This is so profoundly insightful. Thanks! Fabulous!

Fudugazi	07 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: You know, firemaiden, in the majority of my spreads, I have a position called "Advice". This is what provides the "Intention". But as I am too much of a human being to know what is good for me, I prefer not to always decide myself. Error is SUCH a human trait. Now of course, if I don't FOLLOW the advice in order to change the course my life is taking, then I'm a bloody fool. The trouble I have with Advice cards (whether explicit or implicit) is that the card can be difficult to interpret, so you're not sure what you are being advised to do. What advice would you say the King of Cups represented? to go and see such a man for advice? to be more like him? or that the reading concerned that person? Or that we were too much like the negative side of the king of cups, and should become less so? I get lost. I do ask for advice, but I sometimes agonise over what it is! I'm learning to trust myself more, to take responsibility for my readings. That is where our intention can be manifested, I think. There is a set of facts - your mother is very sick, you lost your job, you have a fantastic new idea for a story - and various forces and energies at play, but what you make of those will depend very much on the person facing them. And yes, intention rules that choice. Even deciding to submit supinely to fate is a form of intention. It reminds me of Gandalf's words to Frodo when the Fellowship was lost in the Mines of Moria (in the film - a longer version of that philosophy is distilled throughout the book), and Frodo had a moment of despair: "I wish the Ring had never come to me". Gandalf answers: "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us". This is the link between fate and intention (or free will, as it used to be called). Divination can create that link by being both indicator of fate, and adviser of free will.

Diana	07 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: The trouble I have with Advice cards (whether explicit or implicit) is that the card can be difficult to interpret, so you're not sure what you are being advised to do. What advice would you say the King of Cups represented? to go and see such a man for advice? to be more like him? or that the reading concerned that person? Or that we were too much like the negative side of the king of cups, and should become less so? I get lost. I do ask for advice, but I sometimes agonise over what it is! Helvetica: A card in a reading (I'm not talking about a one-card reading) has to be read in conjuction with the others. They give you the clues. If you just read the card by yourself, it's like only cooking one ingredient from a fabulous recipe and then wonder why it tastes so bland!

Fudugazi	07 Dec 2004
Umbrae wrote: Ego…like a little doggie, wherever he goes – egos. :laugh: So it's "down boy!" Bring him to dog-training school with [fill in your favourite deck]. Still, at the end of all this nice Barbara Woodhouse "sit, stay" practice, you still have to sit, and stay with your life and whether you intend to let it pass you by, roll all over you or swirl you round in a rrrhumba is your choice.

Fudugazi	07 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: Helvetica: A card in a reading (I'm not talking about a one-card reading) has to be read in conjuction with the others. They give you the clues. If you just read the card by yourself, it's like only cooking one ingredient from a fabulous recipe and then wonder why it tastes so bland! Sure, I know that. But that King of Cups can sometimes seem like too much sgar in a pizza.

WebWeaver	07 Dec 2004
Why not use the best of both worlds. Decide your intent, choose your cards, then with another deck draw a matching spread to see how the Tarot feels about your intent. You may learn something that you hadn't thought of when you decided your intent, like Billy-Bob, is a slob, and you know you can't live with one ;o) Wonderful thread thanks for the question firemaiden! WebWeaver

Shade	07 Dec 2004
My readings have usually asked "What will happen?" because I do not take the approach that we can make anything happen that we want. But even I have softened up a bit. I was doing some romance readings and asking what was going to come to pass and felt that in this intance my pproach seemed a bit defeatist and was not really what I wanted to know. I didn't, in this case, want to know what was going to happen, I wanted to know what I could do to create the future I wanted. As a precaution in readings like this the 8 of Cups has become the "fat chance" card. I think that's a fair compromise.

mac22	07 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: I've been reading, advice of a friend, "The Power of Intention" by Wayne Dyer. Doesn't "Intention" put divination out of business? Nope, intention is an act of the personal will. Divination is an insight that comes from th genius/higher mind/self, your guardian angel....[who can say for certain]

Diana	08 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: Sure, I know that. But that King of Cups can sometimes seem like too much sgar in a pizza. Well then, perhaps the advice is to make sure you DON'T put sugar in the pizza. (It's so easy to confuse the sugar and the salt, especially if one puts them in a similar looking jar.)

Fudugazi	08 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: Well then, perhaps the advice is to make sure you DON'T put sugar in the pizza. (It's so easy to confuse the sugar and the salt, especially if one puts them in a similar looking jar.) Yeah, my grandmother once put salt in a rhubarb crumble. You should have seen her guests' faces. That she did not intend, so it must have been fate ;) Don't you ever get stuck on advice cards? I mean, as to what exactly is the advice given so you or your querent can take a decision (given all parameters, links to other cards, numbers, etc.)? I suppose it comes down to trusting your intuition.

Diana	08 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: Don't you ever get stuck on advice cards? I mean, as to what exactly is the advice given so you or your querent can take a decision (given all parameters, links to other cards, numbers, etc.)? I suppose it comes down to trusting your intuition. Helvetica: I think intuition is pretty much over-hyped when it comes to Tarot. One can go VERY far just with logic. Intuition cannot be discounted, I'm not saying that. Just like they say creative work is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration, I'd say that Reading Tarot is 90% work and logic, and 10% intuition. Example: Yesterday, when a client pulled Le Pape V for advice as to how to fill the gap of not having someone to love, now that she's broken up with her boyfriend, I told her two things: 1) To ask those powers-that-be that she "prays" to for guidance. (This stems from my understanding of Le Pape V - including the Number, the Historical background to Le Pape V, and therefore what he Symbolises in the Tarot, the Etymology of the word, plus the details of the image on the card.) That was the logical side which comes from study and work. The intuititive side, (which has also been verified by experience, because one cannot discount experience either) was: 2) Your son or daughter will soon be getting married, and they will have two grandchildren who will fill your days with joy. (The client then told me that her son is getting married in March and that they hope to have children soon.) So the advice here, to sum it up, was to get closer to her spiritual side while she waits for the happy event, because she will then be able to be a better guide for her grandchildren. (This was a one-card reading, so I can't give indications as to how the cards were inter-linked.) Now, if we think of firemaiden's first question, would her Intention have been enough... I doubt if she had put out cards with an Intention of having grand-children, that this would made any difference. Because this decision is not hers, but her son's and daughter-in-laws decision. Now actually, the Logical interpretation would have been sufficient. The Intuititive one was just the carrot for the donkey... so that he would have a goal. (When I say donkey, this is not to say my client is a donkey :D :D :D - it's just a figure of speech, okay?)

jmd	08 Dec 2004
One of the first things that came to mind as I read all-too-briefly through the opening post and then the thread is the clear difference of direction that there also is between intention and divination. With intent, one is in the present looking towards how one may reach a desired destination: the focus is the present and a human desire for an altered future present. With divination, one is standing, so to speak, above the terrain and scanning over either a broad landscape or focussing on either near-the-querent or far-from-the-querent details. Divination, in that sense, has a panoramic sense that is brought from the realms of the spiritual. By contrast, intention seeks to bring to clarity the very seeds that are being sown - which of course have future growth and consequences that will be reaped. ...I look forward, of course, to both Umbrae's and Major Tom's contributions to the Conference a mere few months away.

Rhiannon	08 Dec 2004
Shade wrote: I didn't, in this case, want to know what was going to happen, I wanted to know what I could do to create the future I wanted. Very good point, Shade. This is sort of what I was getting at. Eventually I think we all get tired of working with the "beginner" mindset and we start asking questions or even creating spreads for what we really want to know. Most of the time it's not passive, it's more active as you are saying here. "What can I do to help my intent come to be?" :)

Umbrae	08 Dec 2004
Uh…you know folks…there’s a difference between intent (first person what I want or am going to do), and Intention as used by Dr. Dyer in his book reference in the thesis post. Intention in Dr. Dyer’s usage and mirrored in the post Thesis is a ‘conscious connection to source’.

Fudugazi	08 Dec 2004
Umbrae wrote: Intention in Dr. Dyer’s usage and mirrored in the post Thesis is a ‘conscious connection to source’. What source?

firemaiden	08 Dec 2004
Umbrae wrote: Uh…you know folks…there’s a difference between intent (first person what I want or am going to do), and Intention as used by Dr. Dyer in his book reference in the thesis post. Intention in Dr. Dyer’s usage and mirrored in the post Thesis is a ‘conscious connection to source’. Yes, I would like to have better spelled out in my first post exactly what Dr. Dyer means by "intention". I don't have the book in front of me, and am afraid I will misrepresent what he means... wouldn't it be cool if he were around to answer this question himself?

firemaiden	08 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: What source? "Source" as I understand it, in Dyers writings, and elsewhere, is a word for something others might refer to as "God". It's a metaphor -- source (like German "Quelle") meaning both: 1) a place from which water springs up naturally from the earth, and 2) the originating place. By extension - the original place from which all life sprang up. As I understand it, "Connecting to Source" means tapping into the metaphorical River of life, to the universal flow, to the energy that runs through and connects all of life. Would you say that's about it, Umbrae, Alissa, and others who have read the book?

Moongold	08 Dec 2004
If we use the Tarot from a position of need (does Billy Bob like me, what is wrong with my relationship?) it will meet our needs but offer much more as well. If we use the Tarot from a postion of divination or creativity (stepping out of the shadows) it will meet our needs and offer much more. Our needs will be different. Our orientation will be different. The Tarot does not direct. We direct.

Alissa	08 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: "Source" as I understand it, in Dyers writings, and elsewhere, is a word for something others might refer to as "God". Would you say that's about it, Umbrae, Alissa, and others who have read the book? I honestly haven't read enough yet to speak for Dyer's intention, but I know in my own mind, I do picture it something similar (in metaphor anyhow) to what you describe with the life source, fire. I see it more like looking up and out over a vast map of possibilities. Each point of light is a point of possibility and energy that can connect to another, make new realities and manifestations. Really, the image I get as I describe this metaphysical idea is the very biological image of neurons connecting and mapping the brain. The same thing is what I see when using intention, one is putting into motion on a very different and energetic/spiritual level the same ability to make new connections, bringing together possibilities, in order to bring about a desired result. I use the word Desire. Desire and Intention are somewhat enmeshed in my brain. Red Emma suggested I read Deepak Chopra's The Spontaneous Fulfillment of Desire (I think that's the title) (I SwEAR I will still read it, Emma!!! :D) which seems to correlate with Dyer's message.

The Intention vs. Divination thread was originally posted on 06 Dec 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.