The relationship between cards and reversals
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| marinecomm |
15 Dec 2004 |
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I have seen many people post on these threads that they do not use reversed cards. They say they can determine if a card has an upright or reversed meaning based on the other cards in the spread. Yet, so far, I haven't seen any examples. How do you determine what the relationship is between cards? How does the relationship between the cards in a spread indicate which cards should be interpreted as reversed or not?
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| Thirteen |
15 Dec 2004 |
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I have seen many people post on these threads that they do not use reversed cards. They say they can determine if a card has an upright or reversed meaning based on the other cards in the spread. Yet, so far, I haven't seen any examples. How do you determine what the relationship is between cards? How does the relationship between the cards in a spread indicate which cards should be interpreted as reversed or not?
Good question--but I don't know that it can rightly be answered because it's more or less an intuitive decision. Let's try this. You set out a 3-card spread. You get:
2/cups, The Fool, 5/cups
Ok. Now the Fool is not like the 3/Swords or the Tower, a scary meaning, as it were. It's usually pretty positive or at best neutral. Upright, the Fool is usually seen as an innocent on a new venture. Reversed, well, that's usually indicates he's foolishly stepped off that cliff and now he's stuck. In this case you can see that the Fool probably went wrong. We can see this from the 5/Cups. 2/Cups--a nice little relationship. But 5/Cups indicates regret over something the querent did, probably something they wish they could take back. Thus, our Fool in the middle--our querent acted like an idiot. Stepped off the cliff. A relatioship that was new and promising and he did something really stupid--and he's going to regret it.
Does this example help?
Let's try a harder one.
Page/Wands, 6/Swords, Hermit
Okay. Now what this means also relies, of course, on the querent and his question, but let's imagine our Querent is after information, answers. So, Past: Page of Wands he starts out as a student, questing. Present: Normally, the 6/Swords is about at least seeing that other shore in sight, rough waters behind, the answer ahead. But take a look at that last card. Hermit. He's still seeking in the future! So, I would interpet the 6/sword with a "reversed" meaning--no shore in sight. Currently, he's paddling in the wrong direction, or there's too much fog to see the shore. If he doesn't try something else, he's going to end up still searching for some kind of answer in the future.
This is the best I can give by way of example. The problem is, deciding how to read the cards, even reversals, depends so much on spread position, querent and question. I can imagine instances, but nothing beats watching a real reader do a real reading. That's the only way to see them do it. HOW they do it...well, that's rather like asking how we know how to interpet the cards given how many possible meanings they could have. The answer, practice, study and intuition.
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| marinecomm |
15 Dec 2004 |
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Thirteen, thank you. That does help a lot. Your examples made sense to me and I can see the relation. I will have to keep that in mind from now on when I do a spread. Is this the technique that most other people use or is there another set of correlations one can use?
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| tatsi |
15 Dec 2004 |
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Thirteen, thank you. That does help a lot. Your examples made sense to me and I can see the relation. I will have to keep that in mind from now on when I do a spread. Is this the technique that most other people use or is there another set of correlations one can use?
Using and applying reversals in a spread can be daunting, which is one reason some don't use reversals. Thirteen, you gave and explained two very good examples. Thanks.
tatsi
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| L'Etoile |
15 Dec 2004 |
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Why would one not use reversed if they were going to use reversed anyway? Wait, that didn't make sense. Excuse me. How can you know what would be reversed and when? And if one is just going to say: this doesn't quite fit the way it is, I'm going to reverse it" what's the point of not letting the cards reverse themselves in the first place? And how can you choose? With the 2/cups, Fool, 5/cups thing it could be either the Fool or the 2/cups that are reversed. If the 2/cups is reversed it would be a somewhat unhappy relationship, (maybe a good one gone bad) and through this Fool-ish innocent new outlook on life they turn to see (reversed) the 5/cups and realize what they still have in their lives. You could never be quite certain.
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| Fudugazi |
15 Dec 2004 |
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I enjoyed that, Thirteen. I am learning to read without reversals at the moment, because I feel the readings to be more dynamic and intuitive, but also because I simply can't read reversals formyself, and I was missing something vital. Now, reading all upright, I feel as though there were a whole spiral of meanings, and one had to go up or down the spiral to find the one that fits that particular reading, and of course, it's not a single spiral, it's a triple, quadruple, multiple helix, every spiral changing the quality, the feel of the other, and affecting the balance and ultimate meaning of the reading, as a single shift in our double-helixed DNA changes the balance and ultimate look of our bodies. But it's so hard to climb those spirals, and let oneself slide down, it's so hard, exhilarating - so difficult to grasp at those elusive meanings, weaving one into the other. So tempting to go back to the either/or of reversals.
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| marinecomm |
15 Dec 2004 |
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Let's not change this thread to be about reversals. The main reason I started this thread was to find out how people determined a card's relation to other cards in a spread. It's my understanding that each of the cards in the tarot relate to each other in different ways. So far I haven't found any body of knowledge that explains how one card relates to another. Therefore, I figured I would breach the subject here and see what type of feedback I get.
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| marinecomm |
16 Dec 2004 |
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Clau, thank you for the link. I printed it out so it would be easier to read and digest. Ok, let me get this straight. I will use an example to make it easier for someone to answer my question. Say I did a classic celtic cross spread. First, I would determine the meaning of each card according to their position. Now, do I determine the relationship between card 1 and card 2, then card 2 and 3, and so forth? Or is it more like card 1- card 10, then card 2- card 10 and so on? That's where I am getting confused at.
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| Fudugazi |
16 Dec 2004 |
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Marine, you are making things complicated for yourself. It is not so rigid - reading Tarot is the art of watching a river flow. You must look at each card - LOOK, not read in a book, and see what you find of that card in other cards (are there moons in several cards? horses? how many cards of the same number are there, including the Majors; several of the same courts? how many of the same colour; how are the people positioned, one compared to the other) - you are encouraged to play, especially at the beginning, and in any case, free associate - that's how intuition starts : and out of all that, eventually the golden thread through the reading will appear. "Ah yes, I have two knights, one in the past, on in the future, staffs, then cups, I am going from action to receptiveness; I have 3 cards with two on them (High Priestess, 2 swords, 2 pentacles). I have the Moon as well, and there is a Moon in the High Priestess, what does the Moon remind me of, what does it evoke? Eventually you get your golden thread and follow it. I have all these moons, and twos, and I am going towards receptiveness - etc. etc.
The book can be used to spark you off, but it is not a manual, not a rule-book of instructions - it's only a starting-point to your adventure through a spread.
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| marinecomm |
16 Dec 2004 |
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Helvetica, that makes a lot of sense to me. I have a much better understanding now of how to interpret cards in a spread. I always left it up to my intuition to determine the meaning of a card in a particular postion, but until now I didn't understand what people meant by the relationship between cards or what process they used to do that. I might actually make a copy of your post and put it in a notebook I have for the tarot. I appreciate your insight into the matter.
That leads me to another question though. If you have several cards with the same number then how do you determine the meaning of that number? Does that fall under the realm of numerology or is there something in the tarot that answers that question?
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| Fudugazi |
16 Dec 2004 |
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That leads me to another question though. If you have several cards with the same number then how do you determine the meaning of that number? Does that fall under the realm of numerology or is there something in the tarot that answers that question?
That's a difficult question to answer. I'll be frank - I am no mathematician - I tend to use a pretty simple system. Different traditions will use different codes for the numbers: the important thing is to find one you feel comfortable with and stick to it (i.e. don't mix the codes or you'll get confused). Most traditions agree on key numbers - e.g. 1 is unitary, the One, oneself, etc (the Magician/Bateleur); 7 is the number of initiation and expansion, of action; the double numbers are all related to the single ones in different ways (16 - the Tower is the extended number of 6 - 1/6 (unitary multiple), but is also related to 7- the Chariot (1+6).
In general, you can garner the energy of the number from the number of the Major (that will only work if you use a deck that has numbered Majors; and it will change depending on whether you use the original Marseille & Thoth arrangement of 8-Justice and 11-Strength; or the Rider-Waite variant of 8-Strength and 11-Justice).
So, to come back to 6/16/7 - here we have the Lovers; the Tower; the Chariot. What's the relation? Well, Lovers is about romantic love, about following your heart, and about choice (all are related of course); 16 is a sudden shock, an explosion in your life: as can be love, as can be loss of love; if you had the two in a reading you would have to see which came first. 6 followed by 16 - that could mean the querent is in a romantic relationship she sees as happy, and the Tower coming after would indicate that it would be subject to a great shock - maybe an unexpected break-up, or maybe some external shock that shakes the foundations of the relationship; or if you see 6 as choice (again, depending on the situation of the querent and the other cars around it), then it could be that the choice will lead to a great shake-up. Whether it is romantic choice, or great romantic passion already chosen will depend on the deck you have, and the surrounding cards (again;))
If the cards come up in the other order - 16 then 6 - you have the reverse situation: a great shock will lead to a choice involving the querent's emotions, perhaps even to a great love. It could refer to a coup de foudre which will lead to the querent reorganising her life entirely to accomodate the emerged love.
As for the 7 - it is the card following the Lovers; in the "Fool's Journey" it is the next step - when the Fool moves from choice to action, to actual initiation. Some see it as moving to a higher realm, transcending one state for another. So if a spread came up in which you had 16-Tower, then 6-Lovers, then 7-Chariot -- even with other around them, you could link these three, and think, OK - shock, followed by emotional choice/love followed by action. Because these numbers are related they reinforce one another- so the force of the Tower, for example, would strengthen the shock of falling in love at first sight, and the energy with which the querent acts, and in turn feeling the Chariot's pull the Lover will be more decisive.
Then if you have pip cards come up that have those same numbers, they will reinforce the Majors and each other of the same number (e.g. if you have the 7 of wands come up, you'll see very energetic action that has some element of initiation to it, with some confrontation involved, all carried by the forcefulness and conviction of the Chariot). Of course, if other cards show something different, they will balance that trend - e.g. perhaps you have something hindering the action - say the 2 of swords, where the querent is shown to stop and think and not decide, in which case, in this example, the energy of the other cards might well prove too explosive and the person will literally blow apart! But it might also be that in the midst of all that emotion and life-changing events, the querent needs a space to stop and think (you know what I'll say...look at the other cards as a guide to understand that one...)
Rachel Pollack says that when several cards of the same number come up in a reading, it generally signifies a passage of quality within the same energy (she say it better than me).
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| marinecomm |
16 Dec 2004 |
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I realize that none of these questions are easy to answer. I won't delude myself into believing otherwise. But I think with constant feedback these questions can be made a little more clear. The rest of the answers will have to be found out through experience and intuition. All I am looking for is a starting point and so far I have been given several good ones.
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| Thirteen |
16 Dec 2004 |
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How can you know what would be reversed and when?
Here are some meanings I have for The Moon, UPRIGHT:
Raw, unconscious, creativity.
Hallucinations, visions, madness.
Mystery, insight.
Gateway to resurrection
Primal instincts
Prophetic dreams
Psychic happenings.
Delusions, obsessions.
Now. You're doing a reading. You get that card as the "outcome." Are you (1) going to tell the querent that ALL those things are going to happen? Or (2) are you going to pick and choose--and maybe even come up with a meaning not quite related to any of the above?
I'm guessing you're going to do #2 there, right? Okay, fine. HOW can you know WHICH meaning to pick? You've got ALL those possible meanings for UPRIGHT. How do you know? Well, you know the question, the querent, you know the other cards in the spread--get clues, ideas, have instincts, etc. RIGHT? That's how you decide with UPRIGHT cards, yes?
Well, I use the exact same things to interpet the cards "negative" even if they're not upside-down.
what's the point of not letting the cards reverse themselves in the first place?
I don't like looking a upside-down pictures. Simple as that. If you like looking at them, have at it.
they turn to see (reversed) the 5/cups and realize what they still have in their lives. You could never be quite certain.
If you're going to use reversals, then understand that typically, a "bad" card reversed is even worse. In the 5/cups, there's three overturned cups, two upright. Turn it over and the two that are upright are "emptied" of what they held. So reversed, the 5/cups is that there's not even that remaining hope behind the guy. From my P.O.V., a reversed 5/cups would be even worse, not "reversed" and therefore "better."
And a reversed 2/Cups would have indicated no relationship happening at all. No connection between those two--nothing in the cups to share. Which, sequentially, to me, would not have made sense. But then, remember, we're working here hypothetically and without a querent. A querent would have likely said, "I met this person, it's been magic, how's it going to go?"--giving us a clue that, yes, that 2/cups in the "past" position should be read positive.
As for certainty, there is none in the tarot. There never is.
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| Keslynn |
17 Dec 2004 |
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Another thing to look at as far as interactions with the cards is position relations. Take a look at the recent past. How does it relate to the present? Are they drastically different? Is there another card in the spread that might reveal why they are different/the same? Same with the upcoming future card. How does it relate to the outcome, the present, the past? Is there another card that tells you why this path is more likely? If there are cards to indicate conscious and unconscious - how do they relate to one another? If there are cards to show how the person sees themselves and how others see them - are they different? Why might that be?
I also use numbers and suits, but a lot of the time, I use the process I described above as the main flow of my reading.
:) Kes
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| marinecomm |
17 Dec 2004 |
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Ok, it's starting to make more sense to me now. I'll have to print out all the helpful posts and put it into my tarot notebook. I'd like to thank all of you for your posts. They've been helpful.
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The The relationship between cards and reversals thread was originally posted on 15 Dec 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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