8 of swords - mental illness?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sushi	30 Jan 2005
I did a relationship reading (rider waite) for a friend of mine about a girl he was seeing that was acting a bit weird. The eight of swords came up and for reason I saw the binds on the woman as being like a straight jacket. As it turns out, she's as nutty as a fruit cake. I was just wondering if any one else has ever gotten this connotation from this card?

firemaiden	30 Jan 2005
Well, I've never thought of it that way, but I think it is a marvellous interpretation, you saw the binds as a metaphorical straight-jacket, and from there made the leap to mental imbalance. I like this card, there is a sense of urgency with the sands, and the possiblity of a returning tide - a feeling that whatever the binds are - are self imposed, and a choice must be made quickly to release them, or else be washed away at sea. The state of the bonds, sort of half undone, speaks to me of an invitation to unravel a hidden truth, an opportunity to shed a false security, which also served as a prison, and to step forward into a new, insecure ground, naked and defenseless, but free.

tarotbear	30 Jan 2005
Whenever I read a post like this I shudder, because one thing we must not do as readers is try to diagnose illness, particularly mental illness. Perhaps this person IS bothered by daggers of the mind ... what will you do with this insight and to whom are you going to relay this flash? When I put my first book together and came up with the four questions everyone asks, my editor asked why I had not created a category for illness; I told her I did not want to have anything like that in my book because I do not believe in Tarot readers becoming diagnostitians. Let the doctors do their medicine thing, let the lawyers do their lawyering things, let banks do their financial things, and stay out of it. Yes, it is accepted that certain cards 'may indicate' pregnancy, but that should not be the first thing that comes out of your mouth!

Thirteen	30 Jan 2005
Sushi wrote: I was just wondering if any one else has ever gotten this connotation from this card? I've never gotten it, but I think it's a very valid interpetation. From what I've read, people with mental health problems often feel as if their thoughts are sharp swords, alien and violent towards them, not not even recognizable as their own. To be blind, bound and surrounded by swords seems perfectly apt for someone who's brain is a scary and chaotic place. Yet another new way of viewing the card to jot into my book!

WalesWoman	30 Jan 2005
I hadn't thought of this card as referring to mental illness, but thinking back on a reading I did a while ago, I can now see how this meaning might fit what drives the behavior behind the action. At the time I thought of it as the consequences of the action rather than a mental state, but it really does fit either description in this instance. The negative meaning for this card is depression, no way out, unrelenting stress from domination...so it could as easily be from dominated by obsessive thought, or irrational mentation, "being trapped" by thoughts and outlooks. Chemical imbalances aren't something one can just get over by changing attitudes or behaviors, organic mental illness does trap people, they need outside help and usually some sort of pharmaceutical therapy to escape the mental prison around them. I'm not going to automatically assume there is mental illness, but I will pay closer attention to emotions involved in the situation.

caridwen	30 Jan 2005
I think it's a brilliant interpretation of this card but I would look to the other cards to clarify. However, that is what jumped out at you immediately and that is what I would go for in a reading. We can interpret the eight of swords as feeling trapped, powerless, persecution or vicimisation. However, as readers we can become trapped in traditional interpretations of the cards and fail to look outside the box. Judging someone as 'mentally ill' or 'nutty' is our way of perceiving someone who thinks outside the box. There is a fine line between genius and madness. Madness is a cultural perception - what is 'crazy' in one culture is perfectly 'normal' in another. Part of the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia is the belief in magickal thinking and magickal powers - how many Wiccans should be locked up?;) Therefore it could apply to the querent's unwillingness to think outside traditional concepts, confined by cultural preconceptions perhaps? Culturally induced or self induced constraints. Someone can appear to be acting strangely or 'insane' yet we don't know what is really going on in their lives at that point in time. If it were us, maybe we would be acting in exactly the same way... It could also apply to agoraphobia - an intense anxiety that prevents the person from leaving the house. The swords are boxing in the person, yet there is always physical escape - they could simply open the door and walk out. It is what is in their mind that is preventing them from doing so. This card can be interpreted as being trapped willingly, that women could break the bonds that tie her but she is unwilling or too fearful of what lies beyond her confines. Trapped within her self induced anxiety - agoraphobia or some kind of anxiety driven illness. I would look to other cards to clarify that interpretation though - The Moon maybe, The Four of Pentacles, The Devil...

Niomi	30 Jan 2005
I had the eight of swords appear constantly in readings several months ago. Now that I am taking medication, getting along better with my family, and doing better in school, I have been getting it a lot less. To me, it represents my speaking and comprehending abilities, which are like someone much older than myself... but I was strugling to cope and function like those years younger than I was. I couldn't get homework done, I couldn't face critisizm, I reacted to situations unreasonably. It was a terrible inbalance in myself, and the card reflected the 'trapped' feeling that my strengths were being held back by my weaknesses. The card also shows up to let me know that I'm being too dependant on one person, idea, or concept. It comes up in relationships a lot, and reminds me not to put my love intrest on a pedestal... it reminds me to depend on myself, not another person to be complete. ^_^

Keslynn	30 Jan 2005
For me, the 5 of Swords is the one that has indicated mental illness. Of course, I never realized what it was saying til later. I was early in my tarot career when that particular reading (and the subsequent events) happened. I agree that the 8 of Swords could also indicate insanity. It sounds like you have really spot on intuition. :) Kes

Sushi	30 Jan 2005
Well, here's the interesting thing with this flash that I got from the card. I just got my rws a few months ago, and it's been like a flood gate that's opened to me. I had several decks before including the hanson roberts, but I never got such clear flashes before. But when I looked at the cards in front of me with this reading, it was like the 8 of swords became animated. I also pictured in my mind the image on the Hanson Roberts' 8 of swords, which actually seems to fit a little better to what I saw, than the image on the rws 8 of Swords. I saw a woman struggling and screaming. Her screams were almost audible. Her hair was wild and she was knashing her teeth. I was reminded immediately of Bertha Mason & Rochester, which also brought to mind that she may very well turn vindictive and seek revenge on him.

wandking	30 Jan 2005
Most types of mental illness offer no easy escape and I've read things like "no way out" and "feeling trapped, powerless" as interpretations of the card... Let's look more closely at the RWS image. Unlike mental illness, This card indicates that you can escape ominous incarceration as easily as you entered the psychological trap." Close examination of symbolism on the Eight of Swords offers a clue: Obviously, unbound legs allow this figure to walk up to any sword and then sever ropes that restrain her arms. Currently, she stands still because the fear that built her imposing emotional restriction now limits options of escape. To overcome a psychological entanglement, push aside the swords of anxiety and hesitation.To overcome intellectual shortsightedness, realize that fear serves as a blindfold. What you fear most might set you free. Rage, hostility or undue haste makes your condition worse by causing an even greater entanglement. Accept the rational lucidity and serenity that the Swords Suit exemplifies. Cut fear from your life using the sword of mental clarity, then move from that mud puddle of emotions to stand on solid ground. Sir Francis Bacon said, “To suffering there is a limit, to fearing there is none.” I do agree the cards are not restricted to a single meaning and intuition has a say in meanings, which supports the original interpretation on this message board.

tmgrl2	30 Jan 2005
I think the trouble with seeing what you saw.. "straightjacket" and then finding out the woman was "nutty as a fruitcake" .... should only make you most cautious about the words you choose to use when you read... So, while it is fine to express to us here that you saw this and found something out that may have supported it, I agree with tarotbear here big-time... There are dozens of ways to present to someone during a reading done for them, that this card may indicate some issues without using a "label" to diagnose something best left to professionals who do. What I have done is ask questions...such as Is there something going on at present that is causing you some pain? Often the people will open right up and then you can "steer" the reading keeping it within the realm of what we do. I believe we try to have people leave us with Hope Now, that may mean they need to go somewhere for some other kind of help... Or not. But they should leave feeling that, no matter what, there is hope... I don't necessarily mean that there aren't things they need to hear or to look at or want to hear or look at, but we all need to feel Hope and, of course, Love terri

Moongold	30 Jan 2005
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gargoyle_guarded	30 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: Whenever I read a post like this I shudder, because one thing we must not do as readers is try to diagnose illness, particularly mental illness. Perhaps this person IS bothered by daggers of the mind ... what will you do with this insight and to whom are you going to relay this flash? When I put my first book together and came up with the four questions everyone asks, my editor asked why I had not created a category for illness; I told her I did not want to have anything like that in my book because I do not believe in Tarot readers becoming diagnostitians. Let the doctors do their medicine thing, let the lawyers do their lawyering things, let banks do their financial things, and stay out of it. Yes, it is accepted that certain cards 'may indicate' pregnancy, but that should not be the first thing that comes out of your mouth! If I see something along the lines of an illness I feel it is my responsibility to advise the questioner of the possibility. The questioner may choose to seek medical advice as a result. Forewarned is forearmed. I've seen this happen on several occassions. One instance involved a person suffering consistent headaches. These headaches appeared in the cards as something that was not to be taken lightly. As a result of "seeing" the illness surfacing in the cards, the questioner finally decided to seek medical counsel. Turns out the questioner had a brain tumor. End result - the tumor was successfully removed - because it was detected in the early stages of growth. Sometimes we just need a little push in the right direction.

Moongold	30 Jan 2005
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ncefafn	31 Jan 2005
I guess you could say I see the Eight of Swords as mental illness in a roundabout way. Whenever the card comes up in a reading, the first thing that pops into my head is that line from "What About Bob?" -- "Baby steps, untie your knots." So I guess you could say I see it as the kind of mental illness we all get ourselves into when we allow ourselves to get locked into certain mindsets that make us feel helpless. The only time I've ever gotten an idgy feeling about a querent from a reading was when this guy asked about the possibility of a relationship between himself and some girl, and the Seven of Swords came up. The word "stalker" flashed in my head. I told him something like, "Well, the best thing you can do is just let the situation unfold by itself. Trying to force an outcome is only going to be to your detriment." But I felt creepy crawly for hours afterward.

Moongold	31 Jan 2005
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caridwen	31 Jan 2005
If I'm not out of place to say so I think the original poster made a very valid point - regarding some form of mental illness regarding this card. Tarot is largely intuition - a certain meaning, for that querent, at a certain point in their lives. A 'flash' came to the reader following the drawing of this card which was valid to the querent. No, it's not up to us to 'judge' others or 'condem' them as 'nutty' etc but this particular reading had relevance. I found it very interesting. It's not to say I will call people 'insane' or 'nutty' the next time I draw this card in a reading. In many readings it has meant a feeling of powerlessness within a particular situation. The last time I drew it the querents' father had been diagnosed with cancer. If you are one of lifes' 'doers' this kind of situation leaves you utterly powerless. It was terminal what could he possibly do to save him? Absolutely nothing. Totally powerless. We then look to the other cards for guidance. I also drew it for a young woman regarding her current relationship. She wanted out but felt powerless due to financial reasons - she couldnt' leave. However I told her that she could, there was a way of getting her act together and getting a decent paying job. She did eventually leave - in this case the feeling of powerlessness was self induced although it didn't feel like it at the time. No matter which way she turned she felt trapped. I would be wary of 'diagnosing' anything physical or mental with the Tarot but sometimes they just 'sing' to you.:)

Moongold	31 Jan 2005
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caridwen	31 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: I think we need always to be careful about the language we use. :) And we need to sensible within and about the boundaries of our own knowledge. Of course! You could psychologically damage someone for the rest of their life! Most people want a reading when they are faced with a problem, some with a crisis - they are looking for answers and comfort. However, in this case the reader was not telling a person they were 'nutty as a fruitcake'. She was telling another person that his girlfriend maybe mentally unstable. That is what came to her during the reading. That is what her intuition told her and it was valid. We do have to be careful, we can be dealing with vulnerable people. Only the reader can judge what is appropriate at that time in the reading. A few choice words can turn a 'negative' spread into one of affirmation.:)

Moongold	31 Jan 2005
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tarotlova	31 Jan 2005
You know I always looked at the 9 swords as a card that represents deppression as I always used to lay awake much like the lady on the card at night, however I also used to get the 8 swords alot at that particular time in my life and it never dawned on me that was me, until I read Sushi post. As you do feel trapped with no way out, plus I was in a bad marrige with no financial way to get out, but I did and I am now happily re-married and now I hardly ever get the 8 swords now except when it is describing where I live as I want to move!

TemperanceAngel	31 Jan 2005
I think sometimes when you post, you would use language quite different to how one would in a conversation and again, differently to how you would when reading for someone. Back to the thread....Eight of Swords as mental illness, it seems that you were reading the card appropriately at the time of your reading in relation to your clients question. Or were you reading for a friend? Sometimes we were say things to a friend in a reading that we wouldn't necessarily say to a stranger. I am a firm believer in that if the Tarot presents you with something or says something to you, then that's what is meant for that person to know at that particular time. But how to phrase it is another question! I personally wouldn't see the Eight of Swords (RWS) on its own as mental illness. Mental illness is also a loosely used term/phrase. But I do understand the connotations it can have as to the restrictions of the mental/mind. I would like to see other cards in combo with this and then another spread to clarify what I had been thinking. Things like: Five of Swords Nine of Swords The Devil The Tower I have seen terminal illness present in readings, but have not stated that. Instead illuded to it, as it is not my right to say. No-one has the right to diagnose, except a doctor. That's the law in Australia anyways. On saying that, people ask me all the time about their health and illness and related issues. Sometimes people need to find a different perspective. Especially with pregnancy or trying to get pregnant and miscarriage.... Interesting thread, thanks for starting it!

willowberry	31 Jan 2005
The eight of swords also kept popping up in spreads for me when I was suffering from post natal depression - mental illness or at the very least in my case acting out because of feeling trapped, alone, imprisoned by my own decisions etc. is an excellent way of looking at the cards. Hopefully I am soon to come off the anti-deps and now the card which graces me often is the ten of swords - but I don't feel afraid of it as I usually would. I think I can take some comfort from the idea that mentally, on some plane, a death of the twisted and fearful way of thinking needs to occur. So bring it on!!! Unless you guys think i really AM gonna die!!! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

firemaiden	31 Jan 2005
moderator note: Dear Friends, we interrupt this thread, to say... I've deleted a few posts from this thread for one or more of the following problems: - very off topic - metadiscussion (discussion of the discussion) - attack on another poster - a simple "me-too" answer with no content. - inflammatory All posters are invited to review the Forum Rules. We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

caridwen	31 Jan 2005
willowberry wrote: The eight of swords also kept popping up in spreads for me when I was suffering from post natal depression - mental illness or at the very least in my case acting out because of feeling trapped, alone, imprisoned by my own decisions etc. is an excellent way of looking at the cards. That's very interesting and I wonder if it could also refer to feeling trapped within your own body as in pregnancy or being overweight for example? Both a mental and physical feeling... Thank you all so much for this it's really adding new dimensions to this card:)

tarotbear	31 Jan 2005
The Eight of Swords can indicate that you feel stymied and cannot see your way out of a bad situation, or that you feel like you've been imprisoned. That does not mean you are suffering from a mental illness - only that you need a well-needed break.

Thirteen	31 Jan 2005
wandking wrote: Unlike mental illness, This card indicates that you can escape ominous incarceration as easily as you entered the psychological trap." Close examination of symbolism on the Eight of Swords offers a clue: Obviously, unbound legs allow this figure to walk up to any sword and then sever ropes that restrain her arms. I'm mystified as to why you think this is an easy thing to do. In Rider-Waite, she's not merely bound, she's blindfolded. Hard enough to go up to a razor sharp sword and cut your bonds without cutting, oh, say, your wrists or a major artery or your arm off (have you tried this? I haven't, but it sounds difficult to me). Imagine how much harder, how much scarier if you have to do this blindfolded. If you don't know where you are, if you aren't even aware those swords are there, surrounding you. And remember, there's not one sword, there are 8. 8 swords that you could walk into, that will cut your legs, your toes..... Easy? This sounds incredibly difficult and utterly terrifying.

Thirteen	31 Jan 2005
caridwen wrote: That's very interesting and I wonder if it could also refer to feeling trapped within your own body as in pregnancy or being overweight for example? Both a mental and physical feeling... Perhaps post-partum depression--but I think that such a feeling relating to pregnancy would be better served by a pentacle card, like the 4/Pentacles; feeling weighed down, unable to release what you're holding onto? Or maybe 7/Pents--waiting for the tree to bear fruit?

caridwen	31 Jan 2005
Thirteen wrote: Perhaps post-partum depression--but I think that such a feeling relating to pregnancy would be better served by a pentacle card, like the 4/Pentacles; feeling weighed down, unable to release what you're holding onto? Or maybe 7/Pents--waiting for the tree to bear fruit? What I was thinking about at the time wasn't pregnancy per se but the feeling of being trapped by pregnancy. Your body is no longer your own, it is large, cumbersome and heavy. There are things you would like to do but unable to due to your size. All you can do is wait to give birth but for the time being it feels as though it will never end. As for being overweight, no matter how many times you've tried to diet, you can't shed it. You feel trapped within your own skin, as though this isn't you, you feel unattractive and unable to do anything about it. Just thoughts on the feeling associated with this card. Powerlessness, restriction etc btw ie post 27 - I agree with your analysis: when this card has come up in my own readings there is no easy solution and all paths are barred. I will eventually find a way but at the time of the reading it seems impossible to find a way out. It is a difficult card and poses difficult solutions to difficult questions. Much in keeping with the swords.

Thirteen	01 Feb 2005
caridwen wrote: What I was thinking about at the time wasn't pregnancy per se but the feeling of being trapped by pregnancy. Oh, I understand that. It's just that what's trapping you is not "all in your head." It's there, an actual, physical, well, ball and chain. And you could say to another person, "I'm feeling fat, I'm feeling trapped--" and they'll understand. Being able to see it, they can imagine what it must be like and empathize. Hauling all that extra weigh, going through such discomfort, for nine long months--absolutely understandable. This is why I think pentacles are more apt to represent the feeling, because you have a solid, real object there that is not only giving you the feeling, but is visible to everyone. With mental illnesses, on the other hand, it's all "in your head." A lot of People still don't take the mentally ill seriously because they can't SEE anything wrong and therefore can't empathize. A person is hearing voices and all others see is that person talking to themselves. Someone refuses to leave the house out of terror and we can't see what they could possibly be terrified of. There's nothing solid to back up the fear per se. It's interesting to me that the other forms of illness discussed here, ones where 8/Swords popped up, were often very scary, and not real visible. A brain tumor, cancer. Swords, though often associated with illness, usually carry that idea (at least to me) of hospitalization. That "strait-jacket" image which metaphorically stands for being constrained by doctors, institutions, rules and medical equiptment as well as the illness itself. I'm not saying pregnancy isn't scary, but it is usually positive, something you are bringing to life, the fruit of the tree, as it were, which is very much a pentacle image. I suppose, however, if the pregnancy included being confined to a bed, as some do (i.e., the woman will otherwise miscarry), or if someone were forced by family morals to bring an unwanted baby to term, then they might very well get that 8/swords--but the entrapment in that case, I think, would more from family and morals than from the baby.

caridwen	01 Feb 2005
Thirteen yes - I totally see where you're going with the Pentacles and fully understand now what you mean. Going back to the eight of swords though - I don't see this card as being 'totally in your head' or are you just talking about the concept of 'mental illness'? Obviously yes - I've worked it out whilst typing... ho hum...

Major Tom	01 Feb 2005
The key word for posting behaviour on the Aeclectic Tarot Forums is tolerance. If someone says something that upsets you - please take some time to cool off before responding to the post. Please refrain from addressing the person whose words or even ideas offended you by name. Address the issue - not the person. If you have something to say to that person, please do so via pm rather than in public. Two posts have been removed from this thread for addressing the person rather than the issue. A third post has been split out to start another thread because it deserves it. There is room for everyone at Aeclectic. Major Tom Co-moderator, Using Tarot Cards I now return you to your discussion about the 8 of Swords and mental illness.

Fudugazi	01 Feb 2005
tarotbear wrote: one thing we must not do as readers is try to diagnose illness, particularly mental illness. Perhaps this person IS bothered by daggers of the mind ... what will you do with this insight and to whom are you going to relay this flash! This is not someting I usually do. I can see something and I might intimate, but I won't really go into the nitty gritty of health. Recently, however, my aunt, who has a brain tumour, asked me for a health reading. I complied - fortunately I saw a stable situation that the doctors have under control (VIII Deniers and IIII-l'Empereur), which is not stopping her from action and mental focus, and it is even helping her cut through the fear (VII Epées). But having said that, is there anything wrong with asking questions of the querent to understand what is before us? I always try to make the reading a conversation, as well as a story.

Moongold	01 Feb 2005
I have to saying that I’ve never had an association of VIII Swords with mental illness in the way I understand mental illness. A blindfolded woman stands alone, her arms apparently tied behind her back. One has some uncertainty as to whether she can free herself. The image could represent entrapment. It is not clear whether such entrapment is caused by self, others or circumstances. Maybe the other cards would shed some light on that. The hiatus this woman is in could mean anything. I see it as a turning point. The Swords represent the element of air which is necessary for life. She is standing against a background of 7 Swords with one Sword firmly planted directly in front, a few feet away. It is almost as though she is being offered something quite mystical; an opportunity perhaps? It is the moment before she decides to seize the power of the 8. Swords also stand for the element of air, an element essential to life. The Sword in front could represent a life giving opportunity. Whilst many see this as a somewhat wretched card, I do not. I see it as representing a pivotal moment. For example I watched a Canadian TV show not so long ago about the sexual abuse of boys by Catholic priests. One of the priests was confronted years after the event and there was a moment during his interview when he had a chance to acknowledge what had occurred and his responsibility for it. The investigating priest held out his hand to the priest concerned and there was a moment of the sharpest poignancy before the accused priest rejected the hand that was offered. A redemptive moment had been rejected. The accused priest had been in a VIII Swords moment. I think this situation could apply to anyone in any situation. But I don’t see the image itself as having much to do at all with mental illness except in a parallel situation to that described above. A person could be entrapped by mental illness and have to decide whether to accept the fact of “illness” and treatment or to pass it by. That could be an VIII Swords moment. I actually see the suit of Swords as being a highly spiritual suit, offering life giving opportunities, not doom and gloom. Once again I say that essential components of this discussion in normal circumstances would include the other cards and the query itself. Because of my background I cannot see myself ever getting flashes about VIII as card representing mental illness without a whole lot of other factors involved.

Red Emma	01 Feb 2005
I'm with Tarot Bear. Don't mess around with anything as dangerous as another person's health. Especially mental health. Even in the hands of those who've spent their lives studying and practising the discipline, mental illness is slippery, inexact, hard to deal with. To many people, the 8 Swords interprets as being bound, or trapped. If a person has the perception of being trapped, long enough, it can lead to depression and even worse maladies. Nothing the itinerant tarot reader has the ability to deal with. Suggest they seek professional help, and turn to your next customer.

MeeWah	01 Feb 2005
In answer to Sushi's query: amongst a myriad of other meanings, I have seen this card to mean a "strait-jacket" literally & figuratively. Respectively associate it with mental illness; repression or a severely repressed personality & which can indicate mental/emotional problems. In one reading, it referred to a restraining order against a hostile individual. I see Sushi's statement as not so much as a "medical" diagnosis as much as an intuitive grasp & to be respected as such.

contrascarpe	01 Feb 2005
Major Tom wrote: The key word for posting behaviour on the Aeclectic Tarot Forums is tolerance. [edited by forum moderator to remove discussion of moderating decisions, please take concerns to solandia rather than posting] To me the 8 of Swords is a special card as it came up in a reading Lunakasha did for me at a very key, and traumatic moment in my life. The woman is bound, but the binds are loose. She is captive to a situation which she has the power to escape from, but for whatever reason she refuses to break free. I never thought of this as a card of mental illness but it is an interesting concept. Dan

caridwen	01 Feb 2005
MeeWah wrote: In answer to Sushi's query: amongst a myriad of other meanings, I have seen this card to mean a "strait-jacket" literally & figuratively. Respectively associate it with mental illness; repression or a severely repressed personality & which can indicate mental/emotional problems. In one reading, it referred to a restraining order against a hostile individual. I see Sushi's statement as not so much as a "medical" diagnosis as much as an intuitive grasp & to be respected as such. I agree. I also find the restraining order you saw very interesting indeed. What an amazing insight:)

Jewel-ry	03 Feb 2005
In the study forum for the Tarot of Prague I saw this card as some kind of 'phobia' or 'panic attack'. Both of these conditions are considered mental diseases according to the World Health Organisation - classification of diseases. When you find yourself in a situation which is all in the mind, when things seem so much worse in the mind than in reality, I think its a very valid interpretation. That said, its not something I would say in a reading, I would just stick with 'feeling restricted and not being able to break free'. The very words phobia or panic attack or indeed any other diagnosis of mental disease is a tricky area to get into imo. :)

wandking	03 Feb 2005
It appears from many of these posts that the validity of the interpretation is not the main issue. The question we must ask ourselves is: Does equating mental illness with straight-jackets and phrases like "crazy as a loon" show the sensitivity of a good reading or does it show an insensitivity toward those with mental illnesses?

caridwen	03 Feb 2005
wandking wrote: It appears from many of these posts that the validity of the interpretation is not the main issue. The question we must ask ourselves is: Does equating mental illness with straight-jackets and phrases like "crazy as a loon" show the sensitivity of a good reading or does it show an insensitivity toward those with mental illnesses? For me, the validity of the post is the insight and interpretation of the reader in this instance. She made me think a lot about this card and how it could be interpreted as some form of mental illness. I agree that what she said in the post - we don't actually know what she said to the querent - is not particularly flattering to those with psychological problems or difficulties but it doesn't take away from a valuable meaning to the card:)

wandking	03 Feb 2005
Do you also find racism and sexism simply "unflattering?"

TemperanceAngel	03 Feb 2005
This thread reminded me of a client that came to see me last year and I kept picking up on 'psychiatric energy', that's what I thought....psychatric. That's a big term to use, very big.... I didn't know what to say. Should I say: " Do you have someone around you with psychaitric issues?? " I know that's extreme but because the word came up, I needed to use that word psychatric. It troubled me so as you could imagine. I sat there for an hour feeling this energy and never said anything as I didn't feel as though it was my place. When the reading was over my client said: " I need to go home to sleep, I have been on a night shift. I am a psychiatric nurse! " Well, there you go! That explained the energy, it's very disturbing energy, was to me. And I am sure it is too others who are extremely sensitive to energies like myself.... I suggested they go home and have a sea salt bath to cleanse themself of any energy before sleeping.

MeeWah	03 Feb 2005
wandking wrote: It appears from many of these posts that the validity of the interpretation is not the main issue. The question we must ask ourselves is: Does equating mental illness with straight-jackets and phrases like "crazy as a loon" show the sensitivity of a good reading or does it show an insensitivity toward those with mental illnesses? A particular association is just that--as a product of an image (such as a strait-jacket) developing over time as an archetypal symbol whose qualities impart instant, universal recognition--which is how such an image acts. Of itself need not indicate an insensitivity or whatever, but as an interpretive equation or formula it works. Phrases such as "nutty as a fruitcake" & "crazy as a loon" are no longer acceptable; even suggestive of the exaggerated or excessive, but they impart an instantaneous meaning, too. That does not mean one would use such phrases or certain terminology in a reading or otherwise; nor would their use be advocated. I doubt most of us even use such expressions in casual speech, let alone during the course of a reading. There are many other slang expressions that can manifest during a reading & confer instantaneous associative meanings one would also not want to use (but that may depend on the individual & the company). The turn in this thread can be equated to 8-Swords, too. To focus, however, on the choice of words to the exclusion of the actual topic is like throwing out the baby with the bath water & a dis-service. Better addressed in other ways. Each readiing &/or client needs to be approached on an individual basis. What can be expressed to one person may not be appropriate for another. Whilst one may not seek to do readings of a medical nature or related to health, the fact remains that the resulting information is a form of *diagnosis of a situation*. The occasion where I saw the need for a restraining order turned out to be accurate; however, the client only saw its validity after the estranged spouse attacked her & tried to strangle her--also read in the same card. To avoid appearing excessive, I mentioned the possibility of danger to her person & to consider a restraining order or moving out to a "safe house". After what happened to her, I decided to call 'em as I see 'em. My allegiance is to the client. On occasion interpreted 8-Swords as an anxiety or panic attack; also thoughts of suicide. In all those instances, confirmed by those read for & advised to seek appropriate help.

caridwen	03 Feb 2005
wandking wrote: Do you also find racism and sexism simply "unflattering?" I'll ignore the tone of your question wandking - we all have bad days:) Also, there is an Ethics thread which is perfect for your question... Being female - I do find sexism unflattering. Having been the brunt of racism - I also find racism unflattering. Having been diagnosed with clinical depression/panic attacks and agoraphobia - which I also mentioned in this post before - I wouldn't appreciate being called 'nutty as a fruitcake'. However, having had those illnessess at various points in my life - I can understand how the eight of swords can relate to them and as I said, found it very insightful and very intuitive on behalf of the reader. As meewah pointed out - Tarot often deals with archetypes and a straightjacket is one of the stereotypes for severe mental illness. I'm afraid that is an unavoidable fact and we are not entirely responsible for what goes on in our subconscious nor what images pop out at us during a reading. What we are responsible for is how we phrase that information to make it palatable, clear and helpful. Again, we don't know what the reader said to the querent - and no one here has agreed that the phrase - nutty as a fruitcake is apt so I go back to the Eight of Swords: an insightful interpretation.

Moongold	04 Feb 2005
MeeWah wrote: There are many other slang expressions that can manifest during a reading & confer instantaneous associative meanings one would also not want to use (but that may depend on the individual & the company). The turn in this thread can be equated to 8-Swords, too. To focus, however, on the choice of words to the exclusion of the actual topic is like throwing out the baby with the bath water & a dis-service. Better addressed in other ways. Thank you for your comments MeeWah. This has been one of those light and lampshade situations, more sensitive perhaps than some because of the particular audience, including myself. One can choose to see the light (intepretation of VIII Swords as mental illness). It is of value and as you say, an insight. Unfortunately the light may be diminished or obscured by the lampshade (words or context eg nutty as a fruitcake). Your comments on the spontaneity of language and image are very relevant and worthy of a thread in their own right as How to read..... The communication of such content is an art in itself, dependent on context, skill and culture. This communication as giver receiver will never be the same for any of us, and I guess we must manage as best we can.

The 8 of swords - mental illness? thread was originally posted on 30 Jan 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.